RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Generic_Generica]

[stop=Stop]@thesevenwielder has been permanently threadbanned from this thread.

Look it's alright to dislike a thing but posting in a thread for the sole purpose of riling other people up's never going to fly.

The rest of you all had better be good to each other. The eyes of the moderati are on you.

That's all for now.
[/stop]

 

[firefossil]

Spoiler

Oh my god, are you still harping on that? I thought you were saying I wouldn't let things go.

Proof?

Click to shrink...

So let's see:

You just exemplified the problem. It's not your theories I have a problem with. It's that you're presenting them as fact. Stop doing that.

Click to shrink...

I like your ideas, but could you stop mixing in your own headcanon/fanon and pretending it's canon? You keep doing it, and it's getting obnoxious.

I like your ideas on their own. I don't like how you insist everything has to be your way.

Click to shrink...

@Sunder the Gold, there was no "Colorless Empire" mentioned or even suggested in canon. Now that World of Remnant has explicitly said no such thing happened, can you drop this stupid fanon?

Click to shrink...

Citation needed. Episode and timestamp.

Click to shrink...

Your reply falls flat on its face when I can literally quote your previous post.


According to you, Ozpin explicitly says someone oppressed individualism.

Episode. And. Timestamp.

Click to shrink...

No one is asking you to change your theories. They're fine theories. Just change the phrasing the bit, and stop acting like they're facts. Seriously, how many times do I have to explain this to you. I think a lot of people like your theories and headcanon. What they don't like is you pretending like they are canon, that they cannot be any other way.


Also, you have that cite ready?

Click to shrink...

The Great War wasn't against any empire trying to suppress individuality. If you want to prove otherwise, CITE.

Creating a straw man would be someone trying to dismiss me by claiming I didn't like his theories, even though I had repeatedly said the opposite.

OH WAIT.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough.

Now how hard was that, @Sunder the Gold? You could have avoided all this if you'd taken two minutes out of your day to find the episode and link it. But no, you had to waste even more time ranting that I was wrong, amd I had to repeatedly request a citation like five times. And in the end, you didn't even provide the cite.

And like I promised, I concede. There was a war against art or whatever. I interpret it a bit differently than you do, but Ozpin did say it. That's all I wanted.

Click to shrink...

Dude, all I wanted was a cite for the whole "suppression of individuality" thing. I had to keep asking for it. Now I have it, but that I had to ask more than once, let alone five times, for that cite is ridiculous.

Click to shrink...

You decided to harass Sunder endlessly for 'proof' only for him to be 100% correct. And now you demand proof that you ever demanded proof.

Spoiler

Super protagonist powers, nothing else. otherwise she wouldn't even be able to get close to him, and she certainly wouldn't be able to cut his tail off. RWBY continuing standard shounen power creep. 9/10 odds says that none of her contemporaries would be able to pull that off. After all, a supercharged Nora did less than nothing.

Click to shrink...

Show me when his aura visibly cracked, like when Yang fought Mercury. Oh waot, you can't.

Pay attention next time.

Click to shrink...

Uh look at 13:58-14:04, you can see it for both characters.

Click to shrink...

I mean, I know by now that expecting any sort of internal consistency is a fool's game. After all, when we first meet Adam, he needs Blake to buy him time as he charges up his super slash against the spider droid. Then we see him not needing that charge up time at all to oneshot Yang.

As a matter of fact, in the Ideas thread on SB a month or so back. I suggested that an idea that Yang would join up with the rest of SSN, and they would defeat Adam together. A lot of people yelled bullshit, saying that they had no chance against Adam and would die horribly. I recognize some of those same names now defending Ruby cutting off Tyrion's stinger tail, even though he could break Adam over his knee.

As much fail as the fight choreography is, at least it established that Tyrion was on a completely different level than JNRR. But nope, because Ruby is the hero, she gets to ignore logic. Then again, I just mentioned RWBY has no such thing as consistency, so I shouldn't be surprised. And I'm not, really. Just disappointed. It seems to be a running theme.

Click to shrink...

You asked for a cite. We gave you a cite. Will you acknowledge that you are wrong and give a half-hearted apology, or do we have to wait a week so we can legally provide screencaps?

Spoiler

I mean honestly what happened was basically the same as what happened in the first Matrix movie. Just because Trinity killed a distracted an Agent Smith body with a point-blank shot doesn't mean that Trinity would've stood a glimmer of a chance in a straight-up fight. Neither would've Ruby against Tyrian. She got him when his aura was down and his guard was down and she was literally within his guard.

Click to shrink...

Answer. The. Question. Do. You. Accept. The. Cite?

Click to shrink...

You specifically stated that you don't watch the show, instead you just complain about things you haven't even seen, which you are often totally wrong about. I'm still waiting for that admission about aura-breaks.

You know this whole thing. I haven't forgotten about it. Or how you hounded another poster here relentlessly over something similar which you were again totally wrong about.

Click to shrink...

You then launch on another angry tirade. This time people cough up proof. You ignore them in favor of ranting some more. More people cough up proof and ask you to respond. You continue to ignore them, eventually moving on to your next angry tirade without missing a beat. Oh and in the process:

I don't. I follow the summaries and generally stick to the ideas thread, because a lot of them are better than canon. RWBY has some good ideas and stuff, bit the execution is so shit it ruins what merits the show has, so I stick to the fan creations.

Click to shrink...

You admit that you don't even watch the show, which might explain that why you keep being utterly wrong whenever you pick a fight here.

You haven't apologized to Sunder for treating him like shit (and are now pretending that it never happened), you haven't conceded that you were wrong about the auras breaking, and I imagine you will keep at it. Why are you here? It certainly isn't to participate in debate. That would require things like actually engaging your fellow posters or maybe watching the show rather than telling us what happens even though you don't watch and don't know shit.

Edit: Ack sorry was assembling an epic tier response to thesevenwielder before you did what should've been done a while ago.

 

[Mook]

The MurderofBirds reaction video for episode 9 is up.

Pretty sure it was that point where you wanted a source for where Ozpin specifically stated someone suppressed individuality and all that jazz. You know, this argument you had to request the source for about five times 2 months ago?

Spoiler

The source given at the end of that argument was the wrong source, as it didn't exist yet. The true source that specifically states that is this weeks WoR.

Click to shrink...

Whut? Ozpin explicitly says that one of the sides in the Great War tried to wipe out all forms of self-expression. The recent WoR just expands on it and clarifies that it was Mantle's idea.



Edit:
And holy crap looking back its incredible how far the show has come. I remember being floored by the switch from shadow people to background NPC's when Volume 2 aired but now that Volume 4 is airing they look like crap in comparison.

 

[DreamerGhost]

Reaction videos are horrible things and shouldn't exist.

 

[DezoPenguin]

So, WoR. I liked it.

Spoiler: Thoughts

So, Mantle was the first nation to try suppressing not merely artistic and creative expression, but emotions, on the grounds that becoming Straw Vulcans would keep Grimm away. This isn't a completely foolish idea on the surface, though one point is that it's negative emotions like fear, hate, anxiety, panic, etc. that attract the Grimm. Yes, it's kind of obvious that this idea would come out of Mantle, but on the flip side, that's also called "consistent cultural characterization."

Mistral continues to be interesting, in terms of the fact that it seems to have the greatest level of internal political shuffling. The other three kingdoms really have a "we're all the same" kind of thing going on, but Mistral has a lot more complexity. Also jerks.

The VV vs. MM sides confirm what we suspected from earlier in the season from the Faunus WoR.

I'm glad that they take the time to point out that (a) Grimm are really, really attracted to battlefields, and (b) when you mobilize the military, villages become really soft targets for Grimm. Another nice point was the observation about how shared Human-Faunus battlefield experiences helped to bring the races closer.

The implication that Ozpin was the King of Vale is pretty strong, given the silhouette that looks awfully like his cane being represented as his scepter. (Odds that the Beacon Relic is either that cane or concealed in the cane? Pretty high, I think.) The final battle looks like a basic case of "Okay, I am so through with your crap" by him, where essentially he came to the conclusion that he had to take the kid gloves off and personally clean up everything with extreme prejudice. The fact that there were such nasty consequences to all the violence really drove home to me why Ozpin, in the "present day," is insistent on the subtle way of dealing with things. He knows what happens when "use overwhelming force" is brought out as a solution, and wants to avoid escalating the situation. The social and political structure he set up is deliberately designed to buttress this. Ironwood, without that perspective, sees that as passivity and as giving the enemy a free hand to operate. We don't know which is right.

(I can't help but look back at V1E10, where Ozpin talks about how he's made more mistakes than he can count. I think he counts most of the Great War in that category.)

I agree that it would have been good to see more about Vacuo's leader. Heck, just their (her?) title would have been nice.

On a separate note, this WoR just confirms something that I can't help but think about RWBY in general and the fandom in specific:

There is a lot of headcanon out there which centers around the concept that "what we have been told is wrong." I've mentioned the Rose-Xiao Long family relationships before, where huge numbers of people simply cannot accept the idea that Ruby and Yang are half-sisters. (The "Qrow is really Ruby's dad!" theory is the latest one.) Yet, for nearly four full years now, every time we've gained new information, that information has confirmed what we've been already told.

Now, that's not to say that we've been given complete information. There have been many times when we've been glimpses or scraps of information. Many times specifics have been held back, or only casually alluded to. But consider, for example, that basically everything we were told about the Schnee Dust Company by Weiss and Blake (even right down to Weiss's "My grandfather's company..." reference) have been confirmed true this year, either in the SDC WoR or in Weiss's scenes with her family.

There have been certain situations where villains lie to people in order to manipulate or deceive them: Cinder going undercover generally, or spreading misinformation, or the foxes lying through their teeth to Ghira about the Fang this year. But in those circumstances, it's generally clear to us, the audience, what is going on. We don't have to carefully analyze the situation, pick through tiny clues, and discover the truth. The deception is practiced against the characters, not the audience. Which is not to say that there aren't details to analyze and pick through, but whenever we do that, what we find is "expanding on what's been presented" instead of "negating the surface narrative." We've never been given false information. And honestly? I'm very happy about that. RWBY's #1 problem has always been, since the very beginning, not having enough time, staff, and budget to tell the story it wants to tell in the space it wants to tell it. The last thing it needs to do is to waste its time lying to the audience and then yelling "Gotcha!"

 

[Tython82]

Spoiler

(I can't help but look back at V1E10, where Ozpin talks about how he's made more mistakes than he can count. I think he counts most of the Great War in that category.)

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

Actually what he says is that he has made more mistakes then any "Man,Woman and Child on this Planet" this is why I am more inclined to believe that he is actually the Soul/Reincarnation or whatever the ancient Wizard who gave the Maidens there powers is and all the damage that might have come as a result of that decision

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Vacuo Thoughts

Spoiler

At one point, all three of the other Great Kingdoms oppressed Vacuo; first Mantle, then Mistral arrived, and then Vale as well. But we don't know if this occupation happened before or during the 100 years of international hostility and tension that lead up to the open fighting of the Great War.

What we do know is that when the fighting started between Vale and Mistral, the only presence that Mistral and Mantle maintained in Vacuo was small, only a few years old, and unable to resist being destroyed when Vacuo turned against them. Nothing is said about a Vale presence at all.

We don't know what or when, but clearly something had changed since the days of the occupation.

I think that change was Ozpin's predecessor becoming the new king of Vale. With his concern for humanity as a whole, he not only ended Vale's oppression of Vacuo, but also helped Vacuo to resist and drive out Mantle and Mistral, perhaps even retaking and repairing the remains of their Great Oasis. Not to its original glory, but enough that it could once again sustain Vacuo's capital city.


We don't know how Vacuo governed itself before the occupation. I hypothesize that they also had a hereditary monarchy, but I have no proof.

Regarding the period after the loss of their capital, it is suggested that any formal, kingdom-wide government which MAY have existed, ceased to exist, as Qrow said it was only after the Great War that Vacuo "finally" established a formal government.

Yet before the Great War, Vacuo had one national emblem recognized by enough of their people to represent their country to the rest of the world: the three winged swords.

Perhaps it was an ancient symbol, from before the days of occupation. The scattered peoples of Vacuo might have continued to represent themselves with the icon simply out of sheer cultural momentum, and because no new, central leadership existed to replace it.

Or perhaps it really was a newer symbol, adopted after the people had taken their back their land. The emblem itself may support this possibility.

Mistral's sigil looks like either a sail-bearing air-ship of old, or a stylized shield. Atlas retains Mantle's iconic spear, and a circle that might be either a gear or a shield. Vale's symbol is a pair of axes. All of these things can be controlled by a single ruler, just like the monarchic kingdoms for which they stood.

But Vacuo's emblem seems to depict a single two-handed sword and a pair of one-handed swords; more than a single ruler could possibly wield at once. The three winged swords might have been the new Vacuo's choice for representing their paradoxical separation and unity; their way of acknowledging that each tribe and settlement stood alone, but that they were all made of the same substance, and that they would work together when necessary.


During the Great War, at least one strong figure – a faunus woman – rose up, or else already held a position of great power. We saw no faunus depicted in Vacuo's great oasis at any point, but it's possible that after race stopped mattering, a royal or noble lineage started intermarrying with faunus, resulting in a hereditary faunus leader, or a woman of high birth who worked her way into a position of leadership.

She lead her people in the decision to unite against Mistral and Mantle, and presumably also the efforts to resist lesser incursions into their country, lend warriors to Vale's war-front. Meanwhile, Vacuo's citizenry proved it could quarry so much Dust that the country's mines became a critical resource in the war.

We don't know if this woman became part of Vacuo's failed federal government. We also don't know what that government may have done to cause its people to torch their office building to the ground.

It's possible that this woman was more of a war-leader than a civil leader, and the king of Vale might have made her the headmistress of the new Shade Academy.

 

[Itaywex]

Spoiler

There is something I find weird...

Ozpin is using the name "Ozpin", which many people seem to believe is not related to colors because he is quite ancient. However, if he did keep using this name every incarnation, wouldn't that mean that people would recognize him if he became a public figure?

Basically, if he was the king and used the name "Ozpin" that would raise some eyebrows, and if he didn't then why is he using this name now, when it doesn't match the time?

In addition, if he was indeed the king of vale during the great war (which does make sense for other reasons), and he did use another name, then would that mean that Salem only got to know him after that incarnation of him? Because she does know him well, it seems, and I don't think he had many opportunities to go 'hang out' with her as a headmaster.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Why was Oscar born without a color name, and why did Ozpin's soul go to him, specifically?

I almost think that the real reason someone started the color-name thing is to try and kill Ozpin for good, on the idea that he can't go to anyone who is named after a color!

Spoiler

The implication that Ozpin was the King of Vale is pretty strong, given the silhouette that looks awfully like his cane being represented as his scepter. (Odds that the Beacon Relic is either that cane or concealed in the cane? Pretty high, I think.) The final battle looks like a basic case of "Okay, I am so through with your crap" by him, where essentially he came to the conclusion that he had to take the kid gloves off and personally clean up everything with extreme prejudice. The fact that there were such nasty consequences to all the violence really drove home to me why Ozpin, in the "present day," is insistent on the subtle way of dealing with things. He knows what happens when "use overwhelming force" is brought out as a solution, and wants to avoid escalating the situation. The social and political structure he set up is deliberately designed to buttress this.

Click to shrink...

Did you watch Avengers 2: Age of Ultron?

Because even before you wrote that, I was remembering what Black Widow was saying about Bruce Banner. About how he was interesting to her because he was the only guy she knew who avoided fighting because he KNEW he would win.

 

[Itaywex]

Why was Oscar born without a color name, and why did Ozpin's soul go to him, specifically?

I almost think that the real reason someone started the color-name thing is to try and kill Ozpin for good, on the idea that he can't go to anyone who is named after a color!

Click to shrink...

Well, considering how the justifications for following the color rules are quite flimsy, I'd say that Oscar does allude to a color, somehow.

A quick check on the Internet reveals this:

"Oscar" is a species of fish, which comes in sub-species and different types of colors, including yellow or velvety brown varieties. "Oscar Gold" is also a color, based on the color of the famous Oscar statues.

Click to shrink...

Considering how flimsy the justification for some other names are, I'd say that it's good enough to count as a color name.

 

[blast flame]

I was listening to the Afterbuzz aftershow for RWBY and I really liked the idea they had for Jaune's character.

"Why not tell everyone?" This is going to be how he's based on Joan of Arc which hasn't really shown up at this point besides being good at that strategic board game. He's going to be the Messenger of the Gods. He's going to tell everyone about the true nature of the world for better or worse and probably be seen as crazy for by a lot of people.

I've never liked Jaune but if they go this direction - instant redemption into being someone I want to see succeed.

 

[Zam]

besides being good at that strategic board game.

Click to shrink...

When was he shown to be good at the game?

 

[Mook]

Well, considering how the justifications for following the color rules are quite flimsy, I'd say that Oscar does allude to a color, somehow.

A quick check on the Internet reveals this:


Considering how flimsy the justification for some other names are, I'd say that it's good enough to count as a color name.

Click to shrink...

That would seem flimsy on other characters but look at his eyes. They're pretty much the exact same color as the fish you described. In-universe the way I think they do it is that they look at distinctive eye or hair colors and name the kid after that, sometimes more obvious other times more subtly.

 

[blast flame]

When was he shown to be good at the game?

Click to shrink...

"We should have never let him play"

"You're just mad because the new guy beat you."

 

[Mook]

"We should have never let him play"

"You're just mad because the new guy beat you."

Click to shrink...

The new guy could mean that they let Neptune play instead of Jaune though.

 

[Tython82]

"We should have never let him play"

"You're just mad because the new guy beat you."

Click to shrink...

Yeah New Guy seems to refer to Neptune since why would Yang refer to Jaune as New Guy?

 

[blast flame]

New to the board game that is.

The new guy could mean that they let Neptune play instead of Jaune though.

Click to shrink...

Only if you're intentionally trying to miss the implication. Jaune was shown wanting to play. Jaune was chosen as team leader for JNPR by Ozpin despite a lack of obvious qualifications. Neptune had openly said that Libraries should be used for reading, not playing games.

 

[Zam]

"We should have never let him play"

"You're just mad because the new guy beat you."

Click to shrink...

Given use of the word new guy over Jaune, I can't really see it as reading as anything but being Neptune as I doubt that game is liable to ever come up again to clarify that "new guy" meant Jaune.

 

[jwolfe_beta]

(WoR is up for free members on RT so no spoilers needed)

Considering that Salem's whole deal is setting things off in a way that humanity can only point fingers at each other, I would not be surprised if she or her followers were behind Mantle's.....unique idea of how to limit danger from the Grimm.

 

[Mook]

(WoR is up for free members on RT so no spoilers needed)

Considering that Salem's whole deal is setting things off in a way that humanity can only point fingers at each other, I would not be surprised if she or her followers were behind Mantle's.....unique idea of how to limit danger from the Grimm.

Click to shrink...

Or at least helped push for it. Maybe they didn't come up with the idea but they might have removed people who were against it and people who were against the war to keep it going longer.

 

[jwolfe_beta]

Or at least helped push for it. Maybe they didn't come up with the idea but they might have removed people who were against it and people who were against the war to keep it going longer.

Click to shrink...

Along with increasing tensions in the colonies to light that final spark that kicked the war off.

 

[Dream Logic]

I really would love if Jaune leveled off at thoroughly competent and his main contribution to fights was shot calling while ruby was genuine morale officer and killed the biggest threats.

 

[Monochrome_Tide]

I really would love if Jaune leveled off at thoroughly competent and his main contribution to fights was shot calling while ruby was genuine morale officer and killed the biggest threats.

Click to shrink...

It feels like that's basically his logical progression, too. Like, Jaune's big character development moment in volumes 2 and 3 was realizing he wasn't the big gun on his team and wasn't going to be The Hero. It's one reason fanon!Jaune as the big badass always struck me as a regression.

 

[Dream Logic]

It feels like that's basically his logical progression, too. Like, Jaune's big character development moment in volumes 2 and 3 was realizing he wasn't the big gun on his team and wasn't going to be The Hero. It's one reason fanon!Jaune as the big badass always struck me as a regression.

Click to shrink...

I'm alright with big badass Jaune because it serves a nice counterpoint to where he started and most portrayals either make him primarily the team tank or a genius bruiser.

But honestly I feel like if he had just always been competent but not exceptional(aka worst on screen hunter) his character would be better and would give him and ruby a better point to kick off.

He'd have made it purely on his brains when his skills weren't enough to get him into beacon and ruby would be the opposite. But then again I think in hindsight there's a lot of little things that could be done better or twisted for fanworks.

 

[Mook]

I really would love if Jaune leveled off at thoroughly competent and his main contribution to fights was shot calling while ruby was genuine morale officer and killed the biggest threats.

Click to shrink...

Judging by this even when he unlocks his Semblance his contribution to the team will be more about keeping the rest of the team alive (aka Tank) rather than killing the baddies (aka DPS), that's still Ruby's role.


He fights using sword and shield (emphasis on the shield), wears knight style armor, is at his best when protecting his friends and his Semblance seems to make him temporarily invincible and possibly also heals him (hard to say if its permanently or temporarily since his wounds reappearing could be an animation mistake). Basically he's a Paladin: