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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    I've also seen people insisting Gen:LOCK is stealing RWBY's budget and focus so this seems kinda relevant I guess?
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    The observation of "if you arbitrarily cut out some parts of both shows they end up having the same runtime" has pretty much nothing to do with that, though. It probably is stealing focus, though, just not in the way that it actually impacts either work. Not like we can tell, since the final products are pretty much always terrible.
     
    Delphisage said:
    The observation of "if you arbitrarily cut out some parts of both shows they end up having the same runtime" has pretty much nothing to do with that, though. It probably is stealing focus, though, just not in the way that it actually impacts either work. Not like we can tell, since the final products are pretty much always terrible.
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    Did you watch the same shows as everyone else? Gen:LOCK was great and the last volume of RWBY while not perfect, was a major step up from volumes 4 and 5.
     
    Renewal said:
    It does give a good ballpark estimate of RT Animation's production capability. They're technically capable of a feature length film twice or thrice a year, evidently.
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    Fair, yeah,, dang wish I knew how much money they cost, I've always been curious about that kind of thing.

    Delphisage said:
    The observation of "if you arbitrarily cut out some parts of both shows they end up having the same runtime" has pretty much nothing to do with that, though. It probably is stealing focus, though, just not in the way that it actually impacts either work. Not like we can tell, since the final products are pretty much always terrible.
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    Got any evidence they cut times? Also V6 was probably the best volume done so far and Gen:LOCK rocked socks so (Shrugs)
     
    Zam said:
    Fair, yeah,, dang wish I knew how much money they cost, I've always been curious about that kind of thing.
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    Well, if I recall correctly, the recent kickstarter for the Critical Role animated special had some estimates on cost per minute to make an animated feature - not that they have to worry about them with how well their kickstarter went - but that might be a decent estimate. IIRC originally their goal was 750k dollars for a 30 minute special - so about 416.66 dollars a second for a reasonably well made animated product.

    EDIT: Okay, going over the kickstarter in more detail it was originally a 22 minute special with 74% of funding going into animation costs directly. Which comes to a cost closer to 420 dollars a second.
     
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    hellgodsrus said:
    Well, if I recall correctly, the recent kickstarter for the Critical Role animated special had some estimates on cost per minute to make an animated feature - not that they have to worry about them with how well their kickstarter went - but that might be a decent estimate. IIRC originally their goal was 750k dollars for a 30 minute special - so about 416.66 dollars a second for a reasonably well made animated product.

    EDIT: Okay, going over the kickstarter in more detail it was originally a 22 minute special with 74% of funding going into animation costs directly. Which comes to a cost closer to 420 dollars a second.
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    I do love that Kickstarter, however from what I know 2d animation and 3D can vary wildly, especially depending on animations styles and the like, though I think generally barring flash animation 3D can usually be a bit cheaper 'I think' barring hyper realistic stuff. It is a good guide in many respect though and a useful reference point, particularly how much just one small portion of TV quality animation costs (a lot)
     
    Just cross-posting a thing from SB and also a new thought:

    1: My general view is, Blake would not have left the White Fang if she wasn't partnered with Adam, without his abuse, and without being directly tied to and almost forced into helping with his senseless massacres I am unsure Blake would have left if she'd been working with Ilia, or directly under Sienna.

    I say this because Blake's reasons for leaving weren't so she could go "Give peace a chance!" and be like Ghira "pleads with people shooting at you and your allies", Blake can and will use force when necessary, it is literally part of her job. It was the senseless slaughter of people who either hadn't done enough to warrant it, or who were full on un-involved civilians that drove her out and after that Adam's actions and both his and Cinder's control of the WF informed all of her opinions on it even though those are not representative of the norm given Sienna and the fact Adam had to frame humans for her death to create a martyr to seize control of the WF.

    2: So I've seen it brought up before that Sienna "The Hero Queen" Khan created an environment that let Adam fester, I think this is questionable due to how the Adam Trailer is framed but I want to focus in on another thing people often bring up. Namely that Adam betraying and the WF becoming more extreme than her was a natural consequences of her policies, here's the thing though.

    Adam is a liar.

    I cannot stress this enough, we are introduced to Adam as having lied to Blake about his plans for their mission and him trying to manipulate her into mass murder, he hid being taken over by Cinder from the rest of the White Fang. He committed crimes in secret when a member of Ghira's White Fang, lied to Blake about the necessity of him killing people to control her, he was lying when he professed all he did was for the Faunus and was lying when he feigned loyalty to Sienna before betraying her and most of all. He lied to the White Fang about her death in order to create a martyr to justify him taking over and being more mindlessly violent. He had maybe, thirty people in on that conspiracy with him and two of the organizers were outright using him and schemed to remove him if he proved obstinate.

    Why does this matter?

    Because Adam 'said' that the Vale faction and many in Mistral support him taking over, but we don't actually see that, what we do see is him lying about Sienna's death to create a martyr to justify his policies and leadership. If Adam actually did have the popular support he claimed he did, he wouldn't have needed to do this and given his sadism and ego, he wouldn't have wanted to make Sienna a martyr because a martyr might overshadow him, at least for a time, and doing things his way creates problems. He's not much for forward planning admittedly, but long story short, there's way too much that doesn't line up about his claim, for me to think it is true.

    Or in other words.

    When a proven liar makes a claim and then does a bunch of things that would indicate his claim was not true, chances are he was just lying.
     
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    I'm not exactly liking this "Adam was a complete psycho completely of his own doing, and nobody noticed or cared enough to even feed into it" narrative.
     
    (Shrugs) Given he was introduced convincing other Faunus to commit crimes while Ghira was in charge and introducing his "I want to look like a monster" mask and the song talking about his past notes that Blake had a childish infatuation with him and knowing that she left her parents to be with him when she was twelve, also means he is a child groomer... Well I'd say Adam was always a piece of garbage and just hid it when he had to, from Ghira, Sienna, Blake, the majority of the WF, and that Cinder is probably one of the only people to see through it, likely because she is also as manipulative, murderous and selfish as him, heck they both take advantage of a younger soul and abuse them, Adam is just also a child groomer.

    EDIT: Also just how the Adam short is structured as well. If we were meant to see the short as saying "Sienna created Adam" then we'd have at least opened on that forest shoot out, but we didn't, we're introduced to Adam with no Sienna support doing the monster mask, crime mambo, meaning he didn't need her to be what he is. Plus nothing Sienna did would make him a child grooming pedo anyway.
     
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    Delphisage said:
    I'm not exactly liking this "Adam was a complete psycho completely of his own doing, and nobody noticed or cared enough to even feed into it" narrative.
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    I mean... he didn't even remove his mask and show off the SDC brand to drive home the point of racism. He's a monster through and through and he knows it. He doesn't care who he's hurting so long as he gets what he wants - whether that be to hurt someone, inflict pain, or get the girl. The only person who could groom him to be like that is himself. Even Sienna didn't want war with humans.
     
    Great insights above and speaking of not wanting war with humans I've been wanting to delve into this recently on my "Sienna Khan is awesome" tour XD

    Anyway, I've seen it come up that her view on not wanting a "War we cannot win" is cowardly, hypocritical, or even stupid for various reasons, and while I think they are all wrong because "Having basic strategic competence is not cowardly". The arguments this makes her hypocritical or 'stupid' for 'not seeing' that this would be the "result" of her policies is worth delving into more in regards to why I think it is wrong.

    So lets do some history.

    When was the last time the entire planet was united against something, or at least an entire species was? Not the Great War, that was between several kingdoms with presumably a lot of people caught in between and even if it did count it came before the most recent event I am referring to. Namely:

    The Faunus Rights Revolution.

    Why do I feel this way? Well lets think about that, humanity, or at least its governments decided to "centralize" the Faunus on a small, out of the way island, which is two thirds murder deserts and that could not sustain them regardless of how "pretty" the beach is. They seemed to target all Faunus indiscriminately, over say, targeting just criminals, then dissident, then those who "Didn't assimilate" and then the poor, and finally the "assimilated/Model" Faunus. This was a bad strategic decision because this made it not just everyone's problem, but a very real problem for everyone potentially impacted by it. It is extremely hard to ignore, miss, deny or make excuses and justifications for things when it is your door getting smashed in so you can be dragged across the world against your wishes.

    Meanwhile, even if there weren't at least some human sympathizers, there'd be at least two strata of humans in this situation. Intense bigots, and 'casual' bigots, the latter being more the majority to varying degrees, where in they were raised in a bigoted society so adopted its views to varying degrees and may have felt fairly strongly about the subjects... To a degree.

    What is the difference between the two?

    Well when the war is starting and the militia need more money, the deportation ships need repairs, the police are busier, and Dust is being used more, everything suddenly gets more expensive. In this situation there:

    Intense bigot will fork over their hard earned case because hate and ego supplants pragmatism.
    Casual bigots though, no they'll be going "But I wanted to buy a new TV. Why is petrol so damn expensive? I don't want to sign up for the militia, stop asking!" Namely the moment bigotry starts becoming inconvenient for them, they'll start to change their tune, not radically shifting their beliefs internally in most cases, but certainly not wanting or caring about deporting the Faunus because again, now this action is directly impacting "Them" personally, and broadly.

    So lets take a look at Sienna's actions:

    We know the WF was willing to defend themselves at protests under her and even pick fights. We know that stores would sometimes be torched for not serving Faunus (Though no mention is given to the owners) that companies that abuse Faunus would be raided in one form or another and potentially assassination of high ranking SDC/Government/Military official who had committed some form of crime against Faunus that wasn't punished.

    Here's the magic trick to her approach.

    It doesn't radically impact tons of regular people's lives on any broad, noticeable scale and because of that most non bigoted people, most casual bigots, simply will not care that much, there's bills to pay, theme parks to visit, shows to watch. What do they care if some fancy SDC executive got shot because he cut corners on Faunus mines leading to hundreds of Faunus deaths? Sure they might spare a brief thought for the family or feel a bit uncomfortable with the mention of death but ten seconds later and they'll be back to skimming the Dust-tube for cat videos. What does a store owner who doesn't have a "no Faunus" sign up care when some bigoted competitors stores gets crushed, they aren't the one being threatened, and hey, more business for them. What's more, we know that it is possible to get a whole city running scared and drive Dust prices through the roof, cos Roman did that, and this was atypical behaviour for the White Fang; because Sienna isn't interested in screwing with regular people, she's smart enough to not antagonize the vast majority of people.

    Companies, a military, individuals, yes, because they are sensible, necessary targets and their punishment sends a message to others, but that largely doesn't impact regular people. This is is understanding cause and effect, it is understanding scale, and basic consequences and public relations.

    In comparison, Adam shows none of that, he isn't interested in securing resources when he can kill people in the Black Trailer and we see him gleeful at the prospect of unnecessary murder in the Adam Short and his attack on Beacon, that, that impacts everyone. Because losing the CCT means everyone's internet is limited, travel is screwed, villages can't make contact for aid easily, trade is harder, this does effect everyone. What's more, attacking a politically neutral location for young heroes nominally meant to help all, yeah, bad optics. Plus it will give Faunus little reason to support the WF, as where the relocation basically necessitated all Faunus come together or be swept away.

    So yeah, this is why Sienna wasn't being hypocritical and why her violence and Adam's are different and thus she wasn't stupid for not thinking it would eventually lead to a human VS Faunus war, because it wouldn't, because she is smarter than that and knew what she was doing. This is why the WF expanded and was fairly popular for five years under her leadership and actually made progress (a claim that has never been refuted in canon) while Adam's WF collapsed in on itself within a few weeks/months accomplishing nothing but pissing a lot of people off.
     
    "Fairly popular for five years" yes, this is ehy Sun described them as "holier-than-thou freaks making it harder for the rest of us faunus.'

    Maybe take a step back for a moment and consider that Blake is the opposite of unbiased. Her dad literally created the White Fang, which is why she tried to defend them even at their worst. Like she was confronted with explicit knowledge that the White Fang were working under Roman torchwick, and still refuse to accept it and called them her 'brothers' as she told them to stop.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    "Fairly popular for five years" yes, this is ehy Sun described them as "holier-than-thou freaks making it harder for the rest of us faunus.'

    Maybe take a step back for a moment and consider that Blake is the opposite of unbiased. Her dad literally created the White Fang, which is why she tried to defend them even at their worst. Like she was confronted with explicit knowledge that the White Fang were working under Roman torchwick, and still refuse to accept it and called them her 'brothers' as she told them to stop.
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    Even after explicitly knowing that her partner, the de facto leader of the White Fang, had some blood on his hands that went beyond just a "few accidents".

    Also, said partner happened to have a scar in the shape of the Dust Company that not only took the lives of the parents of a Faunus she shared at least one conversation with, but also just so happens to have its heiress shouting up and down about how Faunus are filthy. And she never once brought up that little tidbit.
     
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    I mean Sun never actually said anything about the White Fang making it harder for Faunus, like, he literally did not say what is being claimed he said so I see no reason to engage with either incorrect or purposely false statements.

    Psyga315 said:
    Even after explicitly knowing that her partner, the de facto leader of the White Fang, had some blood on his hands that went beyond just a "few accidents".

    Also, said partner happened to have a scar in the shape of the Dust Company that not only took the lives of the parents of a Faunus she shared at least one conversation with, but also just so happens to have its heiress shouting up and down about how Faunus are filthy. And she never once brought up that little tidbit.
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    Sienna was the leader of the White Fang, Adam didn't even lead a chapter until five years after Sienna's take over and we literally see how Adam manipulates and bullies Blake into staying with him through abuse so????

    It's almost like Blake didn't want to think about that time in her life or hold Weiss responsible for what her father did or something.
     
    Anyway a discourse on SB actually made me think of something:

    Rescue Romances and their nonexistent place in RWBY
    Note: I could be wrong about this but who knows.​

    OK, so my premise here is that if you want or see one character save another (Fully and without exception, twist ETC) or be the sole protector ET then those two people... Not gonna be paired up. This is based on how all the healthy romantic couples we see so far, even when operating in different fields or having different abilities, are all equal partners and who don't need anyone to be their guardian and savior. This will bleed the lines between in universe relationships and narrative framing and focus.

    Don't believe me? Let's take a look.
    (I have not included Tai and Summer because we don't know enough to say anything for certain and Salem/Ozma is not included because a relationship that ends in a mutual attempted murder and was built heavily on lies during its second go around wasn't exactly healthy.)

    Kali and Ghira, when their home is being invaded Ghira is obviously worried, but rather than shouting "I need to save/protect Kali!" or playing that role or even trying to, he instead sends Blake to see if she is OK and Blake never makes it. How does it all end? Right, with Kali strutting into the chambers like a queen with an assassin dangling from her hand after she ended up protecting her own guards. Ghira didn't save her, she didn't save Ghira.

    Saphron and Terra, while less involved than Kali & Ghira in the overall plot, when the heist came about both ended up playing roles, no one was relegated to ''sandwich making duty" or needing protection, when afraid they comforted each other and their child, not one comforting the other exclusively.

    Blake & Yang make this most explicit with the entire "We're protecting each other" section, yes one aided the other to help turn the tides, but both ultimately played more or less equal roles in taking down their shared villain and the need for an equal partnership rather than one being a self sacrificing protector was the crux of their relationship to start from. Because a relationship isn't good when it is built on savior and savee.

    Ren & Nora is the closest we see to a 'Rescue Romance' given Ren saved Nora when they were kids, but given they had Nora drag Ren under the same house and got him to calm down as he did for her when they were kids, this seems more like some framing issues rather than wanting to present one or the other as the guardian/savior in the relationship.

    So yeah, while not everyone got 100% equal billing and screen-time, on a broad-strokes level, each of the healthy romantic relationships shown so far to be very balanced in terms of who plays what role for their partner in the narrative. There has not really been an exclusive savior or relationship built on a foundation of one person being a savior; with RWBY instead, emphasizing an equal partnership for any romances seen so far. As it is the closest thing we've had to a rescue romance was Salem & Ozma and narratively that ended in massive tragedy the first time and the second time they lied to each other and ended up trying to kill one another.

    So yeah, that's my take on that concept in RWBY based on what we've seen so far, maybe I'm wrong but I feel it was well reasoned,or so I hope XD
     
    Full auto drum fed shotgun/greataxe? Fucking sweet. I want one. AND IT'S ALSO A SCYTHE?! SUPER WANT.
    Zam said:
    Look who's back in action!
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    I'll be honest, I have no clue what they're doing there or anything, but I honestly can't remember the last time an episode of RWBY left me feeling that satisfied and wanting more. The scene between sword/shield and axe-sans actually made me think "Holy shit, Monty?!" So... I am highly impressed. Is there more?
     
    WhoAmEye said:
    Full auto drum fed shotgun/greataxe? Fucking sweet. I want one. AND IT'S ALSO A SCYTHE?! SUPER WANT.
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    It is a very cool weapon.

    WhoAmEye said:
    I'll be honest, I have no clue what they're doing there or anything, but I honestly can't remember the last time an episode of RWBY left me feeling that satisfied and wanting more. The scene between sword/shield and axe-sans actually made me think "Holy shit, Monty?!" So... I am highly impressed. Is there more?
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    I have a more positive view on RWBY but as to your question there is a series of four, plus a fifth one on the same channel, it basically starts here:



    There is also NYON, which has two episodes currently and shows marked improvement in the second episode, but number 1 is also impressive in of itself, their models were used by Mark in the vid with the ace I shared as well, so they kind of collab I guess?



    Mahrac said:
    Not gonna lie, I was hoping for 'the soundtrack is out'.
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    My sympathies!
     
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    Zam said:
    Look who's back in action!

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    There is a lot of interesting information in the description:
    Mark said:
    Published 30. apr. 2019

    Watch the video before you read the description.


    Thank you to the Cast and everyone else who helped! Couldn't have hoped for a better set of voices.

    Ragora Cinarum -- Morgan Berry!?
    https://www.themorganberry.com/
    https://twitter.com/TheMorganBerry

    Lysette Atratus -- Shane Stovall
    She also drew the amazing portraits at the end.
    https://twitter.com/Orenji_Juusu_
    https://www.instagram.com/orenji.juusu/

    Simin Megistus -- Callum Janes
    https://twitter.com/profkranc
    ProfKranc

    Lycan Arcadia -- Brandon Yates
    He composed all the music and helped with the audio mixing too.
    https://twitter.com/bmichaelyates
    https://www.youtube.com/user/thebrand...

    Vella Moisia -- Jasmine Moran
    https://twitter.com/jasminemoranva


    Links to the songs:
    Calling Down The Moon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-xTi...
    A Shot In The Dark - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z762...


    Ragora's weapon is Hexentanz, an Arc Fire Shot Glaive. Her semblance summons a familiar that bites people. Lysette's semblance is lowering the temperature of things she touches. She also uses ice dust. The armor guy that Lycan fights in his trailer was stronger cause it got controlled by one of those possession grimm. Simin doesn't have a semblance. The buildings and walls were actually put together out of pieces of Steve's Vale model that he lent me from his NYON series.
    https://www.youtube.com/user/teFlying...
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    So R is named Ragora Cinarum while the new contender for the Ice Queen position is named Lysette Atratus. Also there is a pretty good explanation for why the robot from the L trailer was so much stronger than these mooks, it was possessed by a Geist or something similar. That does beg the question of why it attacked a fellow Grimm though. Maybe these Pandora guys succeeded in controlling possession Grimm ala what the SDC was apparently doing (according to the manga).

    Also it seems that Simin has been retconned from having a Hardening Semblance to being like Roman and not having discovered a Semblance yet. I guess Mark realized that making objects more durable is something Aura can already do on it's own. I prefer it like this to be honest, if leeks can be made into viable weapons by random Huntsmen trainees then having a Semblance that makes crystal Dust structures more durable (but not unbreakable, or even super durable for that matter) is pretty underwhelming. This way at least there's the possibility that Simin can unlcok a Semblance in the future. Honestly I'm not sure if Lysette really needed her Semblance either, everything she did could have been explained by raw Ice Dust manipulation.


    WhoAmEye said:
    Full auto drum fed shotgun/greataxe? Fucking sweet. I want one. AND IT'S ALSO A SCYTHE?! SUPER WANT.
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    It's nice that the viking weapon of choice, the noble axe finally gets some real attention in a RWBY fight. :cool:

    WhoAmEye said:
    I'll be honest, I have no clue what they're doing there or anything, but I honestly can't remember the last time an episode of RWBY left me feeling that satisfied and wanting more. The scene between sword/shield and axe-sans actually made me think "Holy shit, Monty?!" So... I am highly impressed. Is there more?
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    To be fair to the CRWBY they have to pump out an entire volume's worth of content each year, and tie it all together in a cohesive storyline rather than just make cool action scenes that jump between each other and only imply backstory. Much as I love Mark Zhang's work and will shout his praises to the heavens he did have close to two and a half years to work on this one video, which is a lot more time to put thought into the choreography and ensuring that everything is just right.
     
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