RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Psyga315 · Feb 23, 2020

Pugman said:
Example?

"Hey, noticed this place crawling with White Fang? Go."

"We need you to take in the powers of this girl, no questions asked."

"We need to defeat Salem now... But I'm not going to tell you about the fact that Salem can't be killed."

Pugman · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
"Hey, noticed this place crawling with White Fang? Go."

"We need you to take in the powers of this girl, no questions asked."

"We need to defeat Salem now... But I'm not going to tell you about the fact that Salem can't be killed."

Part of the duty of Huntsmen is to protect the people, so stopping a terrorist group or at least keeping an eye on them would fit the bill. Not attack dog status.
Oz did let Pyrrha question. He gave her info. Sure it wasn't everything, but that again doesn't make that an attack dog moment.
As Ruby has pointed out you don't need to kill her to beat her.

so ya, none of anything Ozpin has done denotes the huntsmen system as being his attack dogs. Especially when even those he helps train and inform and give special abilities to can just bugger off and be bandits and we don't see him being angry or even remotely miffed with them at all. More like "She chose to leave the group and not continue her duties, but I am not going to hold that against her."

MonochromeXClown · Feb 23, 2020

Pugman said:
so ya, none of anything Ozpin has done denotes the huntsmen system as being his attack dogs. Especially when even those he helps train and inform and give special abilities to can just bugger off and be bandits and we don't see him being angry or even remotely miffed with them at all. More like "She chose to leave the group and not continue her duties, but I am not going to hold that against her."

To be honest I would have no problem if Oz was gunning for her when Raven joined back with the Branwen clan. Due to all the suffering she caused and entire villages now empty because of her.

Maybe he was gunning for her but it was not shown? But it is not a good look for anybody that someone you gave special abilities is off committing countless murder with her own Band of killers for a decade with no consequences.

So you might say for Raven Oz was callous of the fallout of her defection.

VolantRedX · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
"Hey, noticed this place crawling with White Fang? Go."

They were going anyway. They were literally planing on how to sneak away from which ever first-year mission they picked in order to sneak into where they thought the WF was hiding. What Ozpin did was be the responsible adult, recognize the fact that trying to stop them would backfire, and instead set it up so not only did they go with his backing but also had a very skilled huntsman with them as back up.

Psyga315 said:
"We need you to take in the powers of this girl, no questions asked."

He...did let her ask questions. He also gave her a choice in the matter and even explained the possible negative side-effects when he could have lied without any issues to himself.

Psyga315 said:
"We need to defeat Salem now... But I'm not going to tell you about the fact that Salem can't be killed."

I don't think he ever once mentioned fighting or defeating Salem personally. Defeat her agents, foil her plans, destroy the Grimm, that's so far been what he's talked about. It was RWBY and Qrow who thought this was about defeating her forever. Ozpin never once said she could be totally destroyed. To them it seems logical, in the stories the heroes always defeat the great evil dark lord, but that's not the mission and Ozpin never said it was.

Pugman · Feb 23, 2020

MonochromeXClown said:
To be honest I would have no problem if Oz was gunning for her when Raven joined back with the Branwen clan. Due to all the suffering she caused and entire villages now empty because of her.

Maybe he was gunning for her but it was not shown? But it is not a good look for anybody that someone you gave special abilities is off committing countless murder with her own Band of killers for a decade with no consequences.

So you might say for Raven Oz was callous of the fallout of her defection.

I doubt Oz really ordered anything. To the world he is simply the head of Beacon Academy, while Raven and her tribe are in Anima. If any Huntsmen school would be expected to send a team to grab her, it would be Leo and Haven.
Beyond that, no one outside the Ozluminati at the time would know how deep the tie between STRQ and Oz was. So basically info about her bird form and the shadow war info she knew would not be a big factor. If Raven sticks her neck out and starts revealing secrets, she'd risk putting a target on her back from Salem's forces, and that is on top of who would believe the bandit queen that the simple and kind headmaster of Beacon is secretly a reincarnating wizard who is waging a war against the queen of the grimm?
And on top of all of this, Ozpin is a passive person. He does not act unless the situation makes him really feel he has to do something.

Zam · Feb 23, 2020

VolantRedX said:
I don't think he ever once mentioned fighting or defeating Salem personally. Defeat her agents, foil her plans, destroy the Grimm, that's so far been what he's talked about. It was RWBY and Qrow who thought this was about defeating her forever. Ozpin never once said she could be totally destroyed. To them it seems logical, in the stories the heroes always defeat the great evil dark lord, but that's not the mission and Ozpin never said it was.

Ozpin claimed he was punished by the gods for failing to defeat Salem and said that they must defeat her now; essentially telling then that was their end goal. I think that is why there was still a question in the air after Jinn's reveal as to what Ozpin's plan was and why it stung so much when he admitted he had no plan.

Zam · Feb 23, 2020

This was interesting:

Onion Headlines.

gwainknight · Feb 23, 2020

AlertFiend said:
2/10
and yet, Ozpin uses huntsmen and huntresses who are loyal towards him as personal attack dogs against evil personified in his shadow war if need be.

Fixed that for you.

2/10 that's not what psyga said

I legit don't get what all y'all's utter obsession with this show is. The belief that every single person that expresses the slightest amount of criticism absolutely must be either a "troll" or "like farming" (seriously, you think disliking RWBY in this thread will get likes you delusional nut?) or whatever. And then the dogpiling, insults, and general rabid dog behavior.

This is one of the least well-behaved fandoms I've had the misfortune of coming across. Come on, guys. It's just a show. Even if it was all that and a bag of chips, it's still just a web series. Why are you tying so much of your self-worth into this show? Honestly, I am starting to suspect that a large portion of the defense of this show is sunk-cost fallacy, that if you were to dare admit that maybe it is actually not a good show, all the effort you have put into defending it would be for naught.

To directly quote Barb, "It's a cartoon!" Chill.

VolantRedX · Feb 23, 2020

gwainknight said:
2/10 that's not what psyga said

I legit don't get what all y'all's utter obsession with this show is. The belief that every single person that expresses the slightest amount of criticism absolutely must be either a "troll" or "like farming" (seriously, you think disliking RWBY in this thread will get likes you delusional nut?) or whatever. And then the dogpiling, insults, and general rabid dog behavior.

This is one of the least well-behaved fandoms I've had the misfortune of coming across. Come on, guys. It's just a show. Even if it was all that and a bag of chips, it's still just a web series. Why are you tying so much of your self-worth into this show? Honestly, I am starting to suspect that a large portion of the defense of this show is sunk-cost fallacy, that if you were to dare admit that maybe it is actually not a good show, all the effort you have put into defending it would be for naught.

To directly quote Barb, "It's a cartoon!" Chill.

Bro since coming into this thread every post you've made has been critical. Several of your points are not only wrong but wrong on a level that seems to indicate you never even watched the episodes in question. You've done very little to back up your points and have done nothing to advance the discussion beyond fairly basic criticism. People have debated you rationally and with plenty of patience and even a fair amount of the benefit of the doubt. In return, you've not shown any sort of attempt to meet people in the middle. You really have no right to call others poorly behaved.

Also as a side note, you seemed to have ignored the posts that directly address Psyga's points using examples from the show to counter their conclusions. It's not dogpiling for several people in a discussion forum to address the same poster's points and frankly given how often Psyga has misrepresented canon when talking about this show writing them off as not worth dealing with is understandable. If you think these interactions are against board rules you're free to report them.

Given that you instead choose to spend several paragraphs essentially calling people out for imagined insults or dogpiling makes me suspect you realize that such reports wouldn't go anywhere and nothing said to either of you is even close to how you've chosen to characterize it.

Sworl · Feb 23, 2020

gwainknight said:
2/10 that's not what psyga said

I legit don't get what all y'all's utter obsession with this show is. The belief that every single person that expresses the slightest amount of criticism absolutely must be either a "troll" or "like farming" (seriously, you think disliking RWBY in this thread will get likes you delusional nut?) or whatever. And then the dogpiling, insults, and general rabid dog behavior.

This is one of the least well-behaved fandoms I've had the misfortune of coming across. Come on, guys. It's just a show. Even if it was all that and a bag of chips, it's still just a web series. Why are you tying so much of your self-worth into this show? Honestly, I am starting to suspect that a large portion of the defense of this show is sunk-cost fallacy, that if you were to dare admit that maybe it is actually not a good show, all the effort you have put into defending it would be for naught.

To directly quote Barb, "It's a cartoon!" Chill.

That is a completely idiotic argument.

For a start you are making some big assumptions about what everyone collectively thinks.

Secondly (since I've seen you post various ideas and assume you are not here to primarily cause trouble) you yourself are a part of the fandom that you are wholesale dismissing.

Thirdly by your standard of reasoning I could just as easily say: "Chill dude, it is just a cartoon so what does it matter if people are (supposedly) unreasonable about it." or "What sort of stupid person would tie so much of their self-worth to arguing about people arguing about a cartoon?" and so on.

That is a worthless argument because it effectively isn't one; not to mention hypocritical because you certainly seem to care that people on the internet are wrong about something that is just a cartoon.

LordOfPears12 · Feb 23, 2020

Sworl said:
That is a completely idiotic argument.

For a start you are making some big assumptions about what everyone collectively thinks.

Secondly (since I've seen you post various ideas and assume you are not here to primarily cause trouble) you yourself are a part of the fandom that you are wholesale dismissing.

Thirdly by your standard of reasoning I could just as easily say: "Chill dude, it is just a cartoon so what does it matter if people are (supposedly) unreasonable about it." or "What sort of stupid person would tie so much of their self-worth to arguing about people arguing about a cartoon?" and so on.

That is a worthless argument because it effectively isn't one; not to mention hypocritical because you certainly seem to care that people on the internet are wrong about something that is just a cartoon.

That's called an opinion.

Your reasoning can basically be downed down to this: Everyone has an opinion, but my opinion is against yours so your opinion is invalid and dumb.

Can't someone just rant peacefully?

Mook · Feb 23, 2020

LordOfPears12 said:
That's called an opinion.

Your reasoning can basically be downed down to this: Everyone has an opinion, but my opinion is against yours so your opinion is invalid and dumb.

Can't someone just rant peacefully?

Great job missing his point.

As well as lying about what his argument actually is.

Can't someone just rant peacefully? Well in that case why can't he rant about someone ranting peacefully? Why is being left in peace a privilege only reserved for the ranters?

Mahrac · Feb 23, 2020

LordOfPears12 said:
That's called an opinion.

Your reasoning can basically be downed down to this: Everyone has an opinion, but my opinion is against yours so your opinion is invalid and dumb.

Can't someone just rant peacefully?

I believe that's @Sworl's point. Once someone has posted a rant, then someone's flipped out about a cartoon online and them then telling people to chill out about a cartoon online rings a bit hollow. Don't expect a peaceful conversation online if you won't also give it to others.

Even moreso if the rant misrepresents something.

Sworl · Feb 23, 2020

LordOfPears12 said:
That's called an opinion.

Your reasoning can basically be downed down to this: Everyone has an opinion, but my opinion is against yours so your opinion is invalid and dumb.

Can't someone just rant peacefully?

I presume you are refering to this bit -

Sworl said:
Thirdly by your standard of reasoning I could just as easily say: "Chill dude, it is just a cartoon so what does it matter if people are (supposedly) unreasonable about it." or "What sort of stupid person would tie so much of their self-worth to arguing about people arguing about a cartoon?" and so on.

That is a worthless argument because it effectively isn't one; not to mention hypocritical because you certainly seem to care that people on the internet are wrong about something that is just a cartoon.

- and if so you are missing the point.

For a start something can be both an argument and an opinion (or at least an argument in favor of an opinion).

Secondly, while unqualifiedly stating assumptions as though they were fact ("I legit don't get what all y'all's utter obsession with this show is." "Why are you tying so much of your self-worth into this show?" ) and blatant hypocrisy may not invalidate an opinion, it does make for a really crappy unconvincing one.
And an even worse argument.

Also I've no idea what you mean by rant peacefully in this context.

Hologram Killer · Feb 23, 2020

gwainknight said:
2/10 that's not what psyga said

I legit don't get what all y'all's utter obsession with this show is. The belief that every single person that expresses the slightest amount of criticism absolutely must be either a "troll" or "like farming" (seriously, you think disliking RWBY in this thread will get likes you delusional nut?) or whatever. And then the dogpiling, insults, and general rabid dog behavior.

This is one of the least well-behaved fandoms I've had the misfortune of coming across. Come on, guys. It's just a show. Even if it was all that and a bag of chips, it's still just a web series. Why are you tying so much of your self-worth into this show? Honestly, I am starting to suspect that a large portion of the defense of this show is sunk-cost fallacy, that if you were to dare admit that maybe it is actually not a good show, all the effort you have put into defending it would be for naught.

To directly quote Barb, "It's a cartoon!" Chill.

LordOfPears12 said:
That's called an opinion.

Your reasoning can basically be downed down to this: Everyone has an opinion, but my opinion is against yours so your opinion is invalid and dumb.

Can't someone just rant peacefully?

I'm sorry but if anyone's been rude it's the people who come into this thread exclusively to make snide comments about the show, but aren't interested in any other discussions. People aren't disagreeing with you because you dislike the show; in fact I've written thousands of words about the stuff in RWBY I don't like. People are disagreeing with you because you're claiming things that are flat out contradicted by the text of the show while calling everyone who disagrees dumb fanboys who's worth is tied to a web series.

Not every critique you voice into the world is a valid one. Not every problem you have with the show makes for interesting discussion.

Marco · Feb 23, 2020

gwainknight said:
2/10 that's not what psyga said

I legit don't get what all y'all's utter obsession with this show is. The belief that every single person that expresses the slightest amount of criticism absolutely must be either a "troll" or "like farming" (seriously, you think disliking RWBY in this thread will get likes you delusional nut?) or whatever. And then the dogpiling, insults, and general rabid dog behavior.

This is one of the least well-behaved fandoms I've had the misfortune of coming across. Come on, guys. It's just a show. Even if it was all that and a bag of chips, it's still just a web series. Why are you tying so much of your self-worth into this show? Honestly, I am starting to suspect that a large portion of the defense of this show is sunk-cost fallacy, that if you were to dare admit that maybe it is actually not a good show, all the effort you have put into defending it would be for naught.

To directly quote Barb, "It's a cartoon!" Chill.

So I realise you've already been replied to, and off the bat this might seem like dogpiling, but there is something that needs to be said here that ties into both RWBY and other fandoms in regards to internet culture.

That thing is the misunderstanding of what qualifies as a critique or a legitimate criticism. A critique, at its core, is made with the express purpose of improving something and that is very easily lost if you're not careful in how you go about it. If you lose that core you very quickly run into the same issues that many amateur reviewers do and whatever value you wished for your opinion to have disappears.

A critique has to be both mindful and targeted. But what do these things mean in the context of a critique?

Being mindful means you have to be considerate. Not only of the execution of what the author did but also the intent - what were they trying to do, what has happened previously and what are you trying to do? There's nothing worse, as an example, for a supposed critique where the person claiming to be critical rewrites the whole story in a manner they consider better while completely dismissing any of the themes, stories, messages or whatnot that the original author was trying to get across. You have to be willing to actually engage with an authors thinking and understand what it is you actually want when engaging in a critique in the first place. Now you can certainly argue that a story or themes might be problematic and thus better removed, but those still require exploration and connection to the intent of the original story assuming that intent is well placed. You also have to consider where you are coming from.

Targeted is probably where the vast majority of people fail. You have to consider where you critique should actually fall. If you're going around and picking on everything you see as a mistake your opinion is very quickly going to lose value no matter how good you think those points are. No one wants to listen to a person who just complains about everything. No one is going to. So you do have to be willing to pick and choose your battles because, again, your intent should be to improve, not degrade. How important to the overall story is the flaw? Have you overlooked it before in a different context in the story etc?

I say these things to you because you've weighed in on what has been a longstanding issue without considering things fully and this makes your comment come off very badly even before you start throwing accusations.

The problem is that many people in the thread are not opposed to criticism - they're opposed to something that is trying to pretend it is criticism when it isn't. Not really. It's not mindful or targeted, and you often question if there's really even any intent to improve anything. The intent seems to be to complain simply because things didn't happen the way someone wanted and that can quickly become tiresome in any context. Or to complain simply to stir the pot so to speak which is also equally tiresome.

This has been occurring for a while. Peoples willingness to give the benefit of the doubt has long since dwindled.

To then turn round and go "it's just a show" and how people are "obsessed" after your opinion wasn't well-received is just, well, dishonest. You're lashing out at people by doing the very thing you accuse them of going while hoping if you play it off as "just a show, why so serious?" you'll convince someone that you're the reasonable one. To be frank, you're going to have to try better.

The issue around RWBY is that, for whatever reason, it has attracted very vocal communities who often embrace the worst parts of internet culture. I've mentioned before that my personal experience with RWBY is fairly different from most. I watched the initial seasons of RWBY (up until the episode where Yang broke Mercury's leg, or thought she did), got busy with other stuff and then returned shortly after season 6 finished (or was just finishing, I don't remember which) meaning I basically watched season 1-6 with no fandom interaction. Season 7 is the only one where I did that a bit and I have to say the vast majority of the problems come from the people claiming they're being "critical" of RWBY. They're not. They're just claiming to be to justify their nitpicking or attitude that RWBY is terrible no matter what it does. There's no mindfulness or targeting, heck in some cases you wonder if they even watch the show at all.

My own personal opinion is that RWBY is an average to above-average show depending on the category. The only place in might be said to break ground is its success from its origins being a web series and how far a company that started out making a Halo abridged series has come.

The backlash it gets in circles? Extremely blown out of proportion for what it is and we see here, even if it's been watered down compared to what you can find elsewhere, which is why people get frustrated. It's not "obsession", it's understanding where the line is between reasonable critique and just being petty.

Psyga315 · Feb 23, 2020

To be fair, most of you guys have come onto me when I said that Ironwood had reasons for doing what he did (i.e. an opinion) and you guys keep shutting it down because it doesn't go well with your "IRON MAN BAD" agenda.

StellarSeeker · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
To be fair, most of you guys have come onto me when I said that Ironwood had reasons for doing what he did (i.e. an opinion) and you guys keep shutting it down because it doesn't go well with your "IRON MAN BAD" agenda.

That's because your past behavior has cost you the benefit of the doubt. Nobody here really thinks you debate in good faith, so nobody really tries.

VolantRedX · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
To be fair, most of you guys have come onto me when I said that Ironwood had reasons for doing what he did (i.e. an opinion) and you guys keep shutting it down because it doesn't go well with your "IRON MAN BAD" agenda.

Just because something is an opinion doesn't make it immune to analysis or criticism. You put your opinion in a public debate forum and supported it with fairly poor arguments. If you didn't want to have either faced with challenge perhaps posting them wasn't the path to take.

Sworl · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
To be fair, most of you guys have come onto me when I said that Ironwood had reasons for doing what he did (i.e. an opinion) and you guys keep shutting it down because it doesn't go well with your "IRON MAN BAD" agenda.

So when you say something it is an 'opinion', but when people disagree with you - and explain in detail why they disagree with you - it is an 'agenda'?

Honestly I'm not even sure what point you are addressing here.
What are you 'being fair' to?

Psyga315 · Feb 23, 2020

Sworl said:
So when you say something it is an 'opinion', but when people disagree with you - and explain in detail why they disagree with you - it is an 'agenda'?

It's one thing when a person or two disagree with someone. That's expected.

But it's a completely different story when everyone who posts in the thread says that the person is wrong without anyone going "hey, I can see where you're coming from". Not helped by how people respond to each other to corroborate on the narrative of "IRON MAN BAD" or even make up stories to help support their narrative.

For example,

Mook said:
cut off all communication with Qrow prior to volume 3 because he didn't trust Qrow enough to share information with him.

Even though we know the actual reason is that Ironwood believed he was compromised, which given how Salem works, would make sense. But instead, it's worded to make "IRON MAN BAD" believable.

Sworl · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
It's one thing when a person or two disagree with someone. That's expected.

But it's a completely different story when everyone who posts in the thread says that the person is wrong without anyone going "hey, I can see where you're coming from". Not helped by how people respond to each other to corroborate on the narrative of "IRON MAN BAD" or even make up stories to help support their narrative.

First of all that still doesn't make opinions that differ from yours agendas.

Secondly, so what?
So what if most people disagree with you?
There is no requirement that peoples opinions on a thread be balanced 50/50, only that (ideally) they provide reasonable, good faith arguments explaining why they see things the way they do.

If you think too many people are disagreeing with you, you need to either reexamine you views, post somewhere else or suck it up and deal with it.

Frankly you are starting to sound disturbingly Trumpian in your self-aggrievement.

Pugman · Feb 23, 2020

Psyga315 said:
It's one thing when a person or two disagree with someone. That's expected.

But it's a completely different story when everyone who posts in the thread says that the person is wrong without anyone going "hey, I can see where you're coming from". Not helped by how people respond to each other to corroborate on the narrative of "IRON MAN BAD" or even make up stories to help support their narrative.

For example,

Even though we know the actual reason is that Ironwood believed he was compromised, which given how Salem works, would make sense. But instead, it's worded to make "IRON MAN BAD" believable.

And the context of that scene is Qrow is out in the field gathering intel and risking his life to do so, and only just got back to tell them "bad guys are here" only to be met with a "we know" and no one had bothered to drop him a line. Instead when Qrow returns to Beacon he finds ol Jimmy has brought an army with him. Not to mention we are never given reason WHY Ironwood felt Qrow was compromised beyond Qrow "going dark" for a time. Given the nature of Qrow's work and how long they've probably known each other and know how skilled each other are, why would Ironwood think Qrow was compromised and why does it seem Ironwood didn't try to confirm what even happened to the bird man? This is not an agenda, this is just another example of Ironwood thinking a thing and acting on it without trying to confirm it with others.

kokuenDG · Feb 23, 2020

would you guys calm down? jeez.
This whole debate is starting to take a really hostile turn. So I would appreciate if people calm the hell down and try to talk about this show without ripping each other's heads off verbally.

I don't care what your stance is regarding whatever position, but if you y'all can't straighten yourselves up then none of us are gonna be happy. So yeah.

At least try to get along.

Zam · Feb 23, 2020

Zam said:
This was interesting:

I feel so bad for putting Harriet's possibly tragic backstory next to an Onions article cos now there's a bunch of funny ratings surrounding a post involve her possibly dead partner XD

Who here needs a good moodboard?

Also a locale we didn't get to see, the Atlas Academy Library.

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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