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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Yknow, if it turns out the Grimm and Salem are aliens, I'm probably just gonna piss myself laughing
     
    Bigger question should be how do we know that Salem herself isn't recovering from some great wound inflicted on her by Ozpin hence why she never leaves her fortress?
     
    I can't help but notice that no one actually answered my question. How are they supposed to defeat Salem? A group of 6 teenagers are supposed to do what as couldn't at full power?
     
    I mean they'll probably gain more power and skill as they travel and gain more allies. Maybe as a new generation of heroes they'll be able to learn from their predecessors' mistakes and offer new perspectives. Maybe some new MacGuffin will enter the story that'll provide an extra advantage.
    Like, a plucky group of young heroes faced with a seemingly unstoppable enemy isn't really something unheard of in fiction.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I can't help but notice that no one actually answered my question. How are they supposed to defeat Salem? A group of 6 teenagers are supposed to do what as couldn't at full power?
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    The reason no one is answering the question is because you based it all on a bunch of assumptions that have no valid basis in canon then you posed a leading question that basically forces us to take said assumptions as true in order to answer it.

    However in the spirit of fairness I'm going to assume that much of the final battle will rely on teamwork to contrast the more selfish nature of Salem.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I can't help but notice that no one actually answered my question. How are they supposed to defeat Salem? A group of 6 teenagers are supposed to do what as couldn't at full power?
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    Through the power of budget saving.

    "Quick! We're about to have a fight! Cut to someone looking over the fight from a balcony or someone yelling at their mom!"
     
    VolantRedX said:
    The reason no one is answering the question is because you based it all on a bunch of assumptions that have no valid basis in canon then you posed a leading question that basically forces us to take said assumptions as true in order to answer it.

    However in the spirit of fairness I'm going to assume that much of the final battle will rely on teamwork to contrast the more selfish nature of Salem.
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    "No valid basis in canon." Right.

    I guess Ozpin apparently never had the four relics to use against Salem... just ignore that there is no way to place the relics in the vaults without having them in the first place.

    Apparently Ozpin didn't have the Maiden powers at the time he made those vaults... just ignore that he somehow keyed the vaults to the Maiden powers without having them on-hand.

    Grimm also grow stronger with fear, too... just ignore that @WhoAmEye's claim has literally no basis in canon.

    StellarSeeker said:
    Got anything meaningful to contribute?
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    More than you, that's certain.

    cB557 said:
    I mean they'll probably gain more power and skill as they travel and gain more allies. Maybe as a new generation of heroes they'll be able to learn from their predecessors' mistakes and offer new perspectives. Maybe some new MacGuffin will enter the story that'll provide an extra advantage.
    Like, a plucky group of young heroes faced with a seemingly unstoppable enemy isn't really something unheard of in fiction.
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    1. "More allies." Like, say... an army?
    2. "A new generation of heroes" Oz already tried that with the Ozluminati. Look at how well that turned out.
    3. "New MacGuffin" Now this wouldn't surprise me. It would also be a case of shit storytelling. So par for the course I guess.
    4. Yes a "plucky group of young heroes faced with a seemingly unstoppable enemy isn't really something unheard of in fiction." But how, tho? That's the rub. How will they pull it off?
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    "No valid basis in canon." Right.

    I guess Ozpin apparently never had the four relics to use against Salem... just ignore that there is no way to place the relics in the vaults without having them in the first place.

    Apparently Ozpin didn't have the Maiden powers at the time he made those vaults... just ignore that he somehow keyed the vaults to the Maiden powers without having them on-hand.
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    Three things
    First, you are making the assumption that all the relics were placed in the vaults at the same time.
    Second, the Maiden powers did originally come from Ozpin it is just as valid an assumption that he could key it in without the Maiden present as it would be to assume that he had the Maiden power at the time.
    Third, taken along with your previous post, if the vaults were made at the same time as the academies then he definitely didn't have the maiden powers as the tale of the four maidens had already faded into a fairy tale. If the vaults were made earlier then he could not have had the relics during the Great War as they were already locked away and the maiden powers were given away.
     
    There's a thing in gaming called "the action economy." No matter how many different abilities someone has, there's a hard limit on how many they can use because they can only take so many actions in a given round. Any opponent that's by themselves, even if they're stronger than any individual member of the party, will be out-actioned by them. Four people with one power each will be able to dish out more damage than one person with four powers because they can't use all four powers at once.

    Even if Ozpin could use the powers of all four of the Maidens before he empowered them (and that's not a certainty, because we don't know anything about how this magic works--he could be linking them to some outside source instead of just feeding them all his own personal power), I doubt he could do as much with them at the same time as four Maidens working together could. That would fit with the show's ostensible theme of teamwork being important.

    Although based on past performance, if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on the answer being "deus ex machina."
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    "No valid basis in canon." Right.

    I guess Ozpin apparently never had the four relics to use against Salem... just ignore that there is no way to place the relics in the vaults without having them in the first place.

    Apparently Ozpin didn't have the Maiden powers at the time he made those vaults... just ignore that he somehow keyed the vaults to the Maiden powers without having them on-hand.
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    Adding to what people have said it's entirely possible that 1) the relics can't be used by one person and thus need to be wielded by several 2) Ozpin did try to use them against Salem and failed because he wasn't pure of heart or some such thing which motivated him to create the Maidens 3) he didn't possess the relics at the same time and found each one at different points. There's a lot we still don't know about the relics or Ozpin's history.

    As for the Maidens well it's been proven by the show that Ozpin has no real control over what the Maidens do or who they side with. By the time the war was over the Maidens could have been children, or jaded washouts, or violent thugs, or any number of things that would have made using them in battle unwise.

    Beyond all that though you're asserting that Ozpin fought with Salem at the end of the Great War and failed. Something that has never been stated by the show at any point. For all we know he did try and march against her and couldn't find her because she wasn't stupid enough to fight an entire army. She could have been biding her time in the shadows waiting until the world became increasingly disunited before striking. That's the benefit of immortality, you have plenty of time to wait.
     
    This whole thing reminds me of what happened with te trailers where people got hyped up and thought the cast was a bit stronger and mature then they actually were because we only saw fight scenes tailored to show them at their best.

    Because I think that's more or less what's happening here. It doesn't feel like Weiss was doing as well as she should have because she got warfed so Jaune could have the scene.

    Honestly RWBY does this a lot. Like when Roman just gets eaten by a griffin even though he'd just been running riot on Ruby with Neo or how a lot of us had assumed Adam was super strong but it turns out he's not actually that good and reflects his dynamic on Blake with him being imposing but little substance.

    It all works in story logic but it feels bad for me because it feels like my expectations were betrayed...like the Horse and rider monster going down to four students.

    As always I'm going to point out that my favorite fight was the Deathstalker//Nevermore fight and I still don't know why. Maybe because it felt like everyone got at least one moment to show off their skill set? It definitely made me feel everyone was better then I expected them to be by the end of the fight.
     
    Dream Logic said:
    Honestly RWBY does this a lot. Like when Roman just gets eaten by a griffin even though he'd just been running riot on Ruby with Neo or how a lot of us had assumed Adam was super strong but it turns out he's not actually that good and reflects his dynamic on Blake with him being imposing but little substance.
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    Not to mention Sienna getting Snoked in her first appearance.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Not to mention Sienna getting Snoked in her first appearance.
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    See, I could forgive Sienna dying if A) they'd have actually given a reference or two to her by name and given us some idea about what her character is like- perhaps some WF goons speaking to Adam about her or something- beforehand.
    B) Adam was more of an interesting villain then angry-edgy faunus boi.
    C) RT hadn't retconned Sienna as someone who's a experienced fighter. I would have been more then fine with her as someone who's a great speaker but a mediocre fighter.
     
    Accelerator said:
    Urm... their protags?

    They'll win. Just depends on how.
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    The issue we have is that, as of right now, the villains aren't going to be much of a challenge. So that illusion of maybe the heroes will lose, that sense of tension that the heroes will have to struggle to win is more or less gone.

    Sure, Salem has the Grimm but outside a handful of them they're just canon fodder. Her human minions aren't much more impressive.
     
    DarthDakka said:
    The issue we have is that, as of right now, the villains aren't going to be much of a challenge. So that illusion of maybe the heroes will lose, that sense of tension that the heroes will have to struggle to win is more or less gone.
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    To be fair, the opposite was true after Volume 3. It feels like you can't stop the villains no matter what.
     
    DarthDakka said:
    The issue we have is that, as of right now, the villains aren't going to be much of a challenge.
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    And how does that figure exactly? One of them casually walked all over Team RNJR without even trying, fought Qrow to a standstill (and even won) and only lost because he got overconfident and let his guard down while at the cusp of victory. And even after his loss he's likely just going to become even more of a threat since he will be taking the fight more seriously next time and will likely have some serious cybernetic upgrades.

    Another villain fought nearly all the heroes solo and showed no sign of stopping, and the only real setbacks he suffered was because of a poor elemental match-up which he swiftly resolved and will keep in mind in the future.

    Then there's a third one whose illusion powers have been constantly shown to be really freaking OP and who has recently seemed to gain a massive power upgrade that could potentially let her solo entire teams of heroes. Meanwhile her buddy could potentially get a serious upgrade from the resident tech guy of the villain team.

    Cinder is out of action for the moment but her fight with Raven showed that when she inevitably comes back the heroes are screwed if they don't have their own Maiden or a properly trained Silver Eyed Ruby at hand. And while Watts hasn't fought yet we know he made the stupidly overpowered Queen Virus that let Cinder pull off all her Volume 2 and 3 shenanigans, and that he likes tinkering with robots. So we can almost certainly expect him to spam elite robot drones that present a serious challenge for the heroes.

    Not to mention that there's two more members of Salem's council that we haven't even seen yet, not to mention Salem herself, as well as infighting between the heroes, Ironwood+The Atlesian Military and the SDC will likely get up to some bullshit as well.


    DarthDakka said:
    Sure, Salem has the Grimm but outside a handful of them they're just canon fodder.
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    Considering that she has effectively infinite numbers of Grimm that's less of an issue than you're presenting it as. Especially if the villains start fighting the heroes alongside some of those elite Grimm, like a Murder of Giant Nevermores, or a band of Beringels, or a pack of Alpha Beowolves, or even a flock of those fancy new Manticores that they're unveiling in Volume 6.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    To be fair, the opposite was true after Volume 3. It feels like you can't stop the villains no matter what.
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    Not really; at least for me. The White Fang had gotten their asses handed to them numerous times beforehand. Cinder won more because no one was looking at everything that was happening with an open mind. Also, it was pretty clear that the Silver Eyes had done something to her. All and all they felt like a group of people who did win in part because of their enemies flaws but also at least somewhat like they were intelligent and knew where to hit. So in short, mostly like people who came across as a threat but not unbeatable. Someone that would require time and effort to defeat.
     
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    Mook said:
    Also for those that think the Grimm won't be a threat to the heroes, something tells me that's not going to be a problem:



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    That really doesn't say much. Last I checked the past Volume's weren't entirely cover-accurate. Though I'd be more then happy to eat my words and see the Grimm being a real threat. And I don't mean goofy like the Drama Llama was. I'm sorry, I just can't take the stretchy arms or how parts of that fight went seriously.
     
    Blarg invincible villains
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    I think the better line of thought would probably be "since the villains have shown themselves to be completely unflappable no matter what happens, it's pretty much guaranteed that whatever way they go out, if they ever do, will be completely disappointing".
     
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