RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Tython82 · Dec 18, 2017

Pumparum said:
I'm seriously changing my mind about sticking with RWBY all the way to the end, just on principal. If that actually was his aura breaking, followed by a fight like that, well let's just say I'm straining just as much as Gira trying to suspend my own disbelief but nearly every episode has something that makes me go "surely this isn't bad and I'm just being salty". I've dropped better shows than RWBY for shallower reasons than this.

Or it could have been an animation mistake since you know RT does usually correct these kind of things for the Blu Ray/DVD release.

robopanda · Dec 18, 2017

RWBY Rewind and CRWBY will be accessible for everyone regardless of FIRST membership this week.

Zam · Dec 18, 2017

Pumparum said:
Am I seeing this right? In V5C9, Gira gets hit by that fireball at around 10:18 and you can see his aura crackle. Initially I thought this meant he was out of aura, but after thinking about it maybe it's there to show he's simply using it? I can think of visible aura being shown when: Ren fights the big snek/Pyrrha's aura info dump, Pyrrha's black glow when she uses her semblance, Ren discovering his semblance. Just in case anyone was like me and thought Gira fought that entire episode with no aura, to stand around at the end with an untreated several-inch deep stab hole while being utterly fine...

I think the crackling effect is to show that its low, but not yet broken. We saw something similar happen with Qrow and Tyrien seemingly near the end of their fight and with Ruby when she took a lot of damage in the same battle. I could be wrong though.

Q99 · Dec 18, 2017

It's funny how the 1-week delay makes this thread exist in a constant state of spoiler blocks...

ay29156 · Dec 18, 2017

Q99 said:
It's funny how the 1-week delay makes this thread exist in a constant state of spoiler blocks...

It's only a three day wait if you make a free Roosterteeth account. That's how I'm watching the show right now.

inukai44 · Dec 18, 2017

So lets say Qrow does bite it possibly by Raven's own hand. How do you guys think Tai would react to this after being told?

Xanah · Dec 18, 2017

inukai44 said:
So lets say Qrow does bite it possibly by Raven's own hand. How do you guys think Tai would react to this after being told?

Judging by past evidence; depression.

Zam · Dec 18, 2017

I'm pretty doubtful Raven is going to kill Qrow, I could see him dying as a result of her plan, but her whole thing seems to be 'create chaos, then run' and she has a strong attachment to her idea of family.

But yeah, I see Tai getting depressed if/when he hears about it if that were to happen.

Emma · Dec 19, 2017

Zam said:
I could see him dying as a result of her plan

I'd be for that. Anything that further showcases the underlying hypocrisy in her character. She's not as smart as she thinks, nor as justified as she acts.

It would show that's she not this edgy villain/antihero, but instead just a woman. A woman that's hurt, and weak, and tired. A woman who couldn't ever face the consequences of her actions, and uses a ridiculous persona to justify what she does to others and more importantly, herself.

I don't know if that's what we'll get, but that's the Raven I want to see more of.

Zam · Dec 19, 2017

Barnaby said:
I'd be for that. Anything that further showcases the underlying hypocrisy in her character. She's not as smart as she thinks, nor as justified as she acts.

It would show that's she not this edgy villain/antihero, but instead just a woman. A woman that's hurt, and weak, and tired. A woman who couldn't ever face the consequences of her actions, and uses a ridiculous persona to justify what she does to others and more importantly, herself.

I don't know if that's what we'll get, but that's the Raven I want to see more of.

Not really what I am eager to see to be honest, maybe its just the phrasing and some other stuff though :/

Emma · Dec 19, 2017

Zam said:
Not really what I am eager to see to be honest, maybe its just the phrasing and some other stuff though :/

Put in another way, I don't give a fuck about Raven "survival of the fittest" Branwen. I love Raven "deadbeat mom, trash person" Branwen. I can sympathize with that person. It's why I liked Roman. Not just because he was charming, but because he got annoyed and was amused for petty reasons, he'd get scared around his psychopath boss and would care about his looks more than his goals at times. He wore his heart on his sleeve.

When antagonists show their human vulnerabilities, I'm hooked on them in an instant.

Zam · Dec 19, 2017

Barnaby said:
Put in another way, I don't give a fuck about Raven "survival of the fittest" Branwen. I love Raven "deadbeat mom, trash person" Branwen. I can sympathize with that person. It's why I liked Roman. Not just because he was charming, but because he got annoyed and was amused for petty reasons, he'd get scared around his psychopath boss and would care about his looks more than his goals at times. He wore his heart on his sleeve.

When antagonists show their human vulnerabilities, I'm hooked on them in an instant.

That's a fair take, thanks for the clarification.

Nicholai · Dec 19, 2017

Q99 said:
See, this is the thing: Can you say that some of my points are subjective? Yes.

Did Season 2 set this up as a serious event that got the military deployed in the middle of town, with ominus alert sirens? Yes. It still set up the plotthreads to be used later even if you weren't expecting it to have consequences at that point. A lot of the plot threads hadn't been followed long because... it was early in a story, that's all.

You can't say that it's 'subjective' that the season two finale set up this stuff- it did. That's objective. Did you take it as just a big fight? Sure, you can do that- but if you do so and then go on about how "season 3 retconned the end into being a big thing, which it totally wasn't before," then you're just wrong, it story-wise did build up this event. Yea, they are happy they contained the breach, but there's still, y'know, the fact a breach exists and the military got deployed. Does the end of a scene erase the beginning? No! And the end had the villains clearly fine with how it turned out, so this is not all that subtle a point that you missed.

Did you not like it? Sure, but it's not subjective whether or not it did this stuff, and the bending over backwards to say this is a plothole or that one is and that RWBY doesn't follow up on plotthreads is an objective flaw is silly when that's the level of attention you're not paying. When I see people loudly moaning over plotholes and not following up plotthreads when stuff had establishing scenes and plotthreats setting it up... well, this is why your dislike is subjective, but the not paying attention and missing parts of the show in order to fit that is objective.

Leila's gonna do snark and you're gonna enjoy it and that's fine, but let's not kid, it's definitely exaggerated stuff being done for fun, and some of the other posters like to exaggerate stuff more than that.

Taking this out of the Let's Watch Blind thread.

Do me a favor, Q99. Show me where, at any point in Volumes 1 or 2, there were indications that the Breach was as serious as you are making it out to be.

I'll wait.

I'm saying that because the tone through the first two Volumes is in direct contradiction to what you are saying. The tone at the end of Volume 2 is in direct contradiction to what you are saying. The things that were shown and then RT waited almost a year to follow up on are not on your side. Instead containing the breach is treated as a victory for the heroes. None of the characters who should know better - like, say, all of Team RWBY - treat it as anything more than a botched mission that they had to clean up.

I'm specifically referencing the scene on the cliff face where they declare victory before wandering off to rest.

Now if what you are saying is objectively true then they would be treating it as a failure. They wouldn't be borderline-cheerful-if-exhausted. They would be despondent. There would be blood on their hands for not being good enough.

I mean it isn't like they're training to become Hunters or anything. It isn't like they should know better by that point or anything. They're only a few years away from being out on their own. They're almost out of time to adapt to the kind of mindset that will let them function through "successes" that have civilian casualties. And it takes time to get someone into that mindset - or figure out if they simply can't cope with it.

Personally I think this is entirely subjective on your part. Why do I say that? Because people pay attention to the bits of stories they enjoy. They tend to shrug off "inconsequential details." By all appearances you're one of the people who really enjoy the direction RWBY took. Great! Go you! But that is your subjective bias affecting what you see. You see the breach and go "Oh, this should have all these consequences" where someone who doesn't enjoy the new direction does not. You say "Oh, all these things make logical sense and therefore must be objectively true!" where someone who doesn't enjoy the new direction would look at you funny and wonder how you managed to pull that conclusion out of the action-romp-into-victory-lap that they saw on screen.

And the worst part is that you are being willfully ignorant of your own subjective bias.

Emma · Dec 19, 2017

I think the broader problem with any discussion about the breach is that it's kinda impossible to make a strong diegetic argument for why it mattered. The people who disliked it didn't care about it's broader in-universe implications, because it's context going from season 2 to 3 pulled some people out of the universe. They were no longer engaged with the story on that level.

Ergo, the only way to argue about the Breach isn't to talk about how many people died or didn't, or what it meant to Vale or the world as a whole, but instead as simply one part of a text. Did it have narrative coherence? Did the music, actor's performances, or editing help the audience get the information they needed and convey the emotional tone properly?

Xanah · Dec 19, 2017

Wait, since when could Blake teleport? Because I didn't see any clones in that fight.

Zam · Dec 19, 2017

Xalgeon said:
Wait, since when could Blake teleport? Because I didn't see any clones in that fight.

She left them behind when she moved, I think she can use them to sort of throw herself out of them it seems, like they push her along.

Nicholai said:
Do me a favor, Q99. Show me where, at any point in Volumes 1 or 2, there were indications that the Breach was as serious as you are making it out to be.

I'm not Q99 but...

Atlas, a foreign military power ruled by a benevolent dictator, was given full control over the security of Vale due to how freaked out the Counselors were and they planned on potentially trying to replace Opzin for his failure.

Nicholai said:
I'm saying that because the tone through the first two Volumes is in direct contradiction to what you are saying. The tone at the end of Volume 2 is in direct contradiction to what you are saying. The things that were shown and then RT waited almost a year to follow up on are not on your side. Instead containing the breach is treated as a victory for the heroes. None of the characters who should know better - like, say, all of Team RWBY - treat it as anything more than a botched mission that they had to clean up.

I'm specifically referencing the scene on the cliff face where they declare victory before wandering off to rest.

Now if what you are saying is objectively true then they would be treating it as a failure. They wouldn't be borderline-cheerful-if-exhausted. They would be despondent. There would be blood on their hands for not being good enough.

I mean it isn't like they're training to become Hunters or anything. It isn't like they should know better by that point or anything. They're only a few years away from being out on their own. They're almost out of time to adapt to the kind of mindset that will let them function through "successes" that have civilian casualties. And it takes time to get someone into that mindset - or figure out if they simply can't cope with it.

Why wouldn't they though? They aren't aware of the broader plot and they did stop a big disaster, imagine how much worse it'd have been if the Breach happened but the WF and all their Paladins were there and they'd had more time to lure in more Grimm and no one was there to contain it when it happened. Yes things worked out OK for Cinder but it still counts as a win, especially for RWBY given their context for the situation.

Given they already kill people and RNJR were able to handle, if be upset by, the destruction of villages I think they are already in that mentality. Plus, orchestrating letting Grimm into the kingdoms doesn't seem to be the usual thing that people would be expected to 'adapt' to.

Nicholai said:
Personally I think this is entirely subjective on your part. Why do I say that? Because people pay attention to the bits of stories they enjoy. They tend to shrug off "inconsequential details." By all appearances you're one of the people who really enjoy the direction RWBY took. Great! Go you! But that is your subjective bias affecting what you see. You see the breach and go "Oh, this should have all these consequences" where someone who doesn't enjoy the new direction does not. You say "Oh, all these things make logical sense and therefore must be objectively true!" where someone who doesn't enjoy the new direction would look at you funny and wonder how you managed to pull that conclusion out of the action-romp-into-victory-lap that they saw on screen.

And the worst part is that you are being willfully ignorant of your own subjective bias.

Aren't you doing the same?

Q99 · Dec 19, 2017

Like Zam said.

And on the subjective/objective thing- Whether or not you or I like something is subjective. Like, if you think the handling of the breach sucked? You don't think it should be a big deal, or you think they should've done more building to contextualize how it rates on the badness scale? Shrug, sure, go ahead.

Whether or not they set something up, is objective. They did. Like, when the breach happened there was an air of dread using music and framing that does not accompany most events of the series (any? I can't think of a prior one that'd done so)- they were intending to send a message that hey, this doesn't happen every day. Ironwood deployed an army, so many teams showing up, that's not normal. There's nothing in season 1 or 2 that would make one think that's normal, and the sound design and shooting of the scene also indicate it's not normal so the breach itself indicates it as well. I do have trouble seeing how someone could come across with the impression that it was retconned into being a bigger thing, and whether or not you bought into the setup, there was, unquestionably, setup there.

Like, that other thread is full of people who, subjectively, don't like the show but do like the dragging, and I realized I am very much not the target audience for the posting going there, so I'm going to try and avoid it, nitpicking the dragging is missing the point. But really, criticism there gets a friendly audience even if it's stuff like "They didn't set up X," when they did, and I'd be happy to not drag that over into the main thread here which, as far as I can tell, is full of the people who do like the show.

Leingod · Dec 19, 2017

So uh, thoughts on the new episode, because I have a lot of them and want to straighten them out in my head:

Starting strong IMO by having Qrow and Ozpin discussing the former's attempts to recruit Huntsmen and pointing out that there's no way every one of his contacts would be MIA or KIA like this, no matter how bad the situation in Anima is right now, and they both come to the conclusion that there's a traitor somewhere in the chain of command. It's good to see Ozluminati members being savvy after how consistently they failed to make any headway in the first season.
Similarly, them immediately becoming suspicious at Leo's sudden "breakthrough" in getting help and calling them over for a meeting to hash things out is great to see. I also like that Ozpin goes from "cautiously optimistic" to "Yeah, this is bad" in regards to their situation once that suspicion comes up.
Also, they have definitively raised the common fan theory that Ozpin's cane is the Relic and have categorically denied it; nice to see them responding to fan theories like that. They also state that the Beacon Relic is still in danger, but Ozpin knows it hasn't been found yet, because he made it "harder to find" than the others. I wonder if this is because Ozpin believed Salem would target him and his Relic first, to keep it safe during the times he couldn't be the Headmaster, or if he decided to step up his hide-and-seek game when Amber got hurt? I'm hoping for the latter, personally.
Raven commiserates with Leo on the fact that they're both cowardly f*cks who've sold out humanity to Salem because they want to cling to their lives just a little bit longer than the rest of humanity will get to if she wins, since they think it's a lost cause. She doesn't phrase it that way, of course, and Leo actually shows he's a lot more cognizant of what's motivating the two of them and what it makes them (namely, awful people) and calls her on her bullsh*t talk about being "strong" even though everything she does is motivated by fear.
Seriously, Ravens' bullsh*t legit makes me grind my teeth. She praises Leo for having the "guts" to betray Ozpin to Salem, as if selling out humanity and the main guy trying to keep it safe so you get to live just a little bit longer than everyone else will is a show of "guts." She talks about being "strong," as if cowering out in the wilderness as far from the reach of people who could actually challenge you as possible and living by raiding civilians who can't defend themselves is a show of "strength." She's everything that Blake fears she is; a coward who's willing to abandon everything and flee at the first sign of hardship or struggle. And the worst part is, she spends all her time erecting a ten-foot thick wall of sh*t to try to spin it as something laudable.
Incidentally, Leo is kind of interesting in relation to his inspiration, the Cowardly Lion. The fun thing about the Cowardly Lion is that he's the only one of the trio in Wonderland who truly does live up to what he thinks about himself, at least in a way. The Scarecrow is the smartest of the bunch, but thinks he has no brain. The Tin Man is the most empathetic of the group, but thinks he has no heart. But the Cowardly Lion, while he did have the courage he thought he lacked, is, in fact, cowardly. Of the three, the quality he believes he possesses and the one he wants are not mutually exclusive. Qrow has a brain and Ironwood has a heart, but Leo is a coward who hasn't found his courage.
So people were hoping that Kali would turn out to be the badass fighter of the two Belladonna parents, and while that isn't exactly what happened, she's still pretty damn impressive. After all, Kali's been holding off the White Fang and protecting their remaining guards (dwell on the irony of that, BTW) with nothing but a pistol she picked up when we first see her, and when that runs out, she starts deflecting bullets with a wooden tray. Then when Yuma (who, having a unique character design, a VA, and being assigned to tasks like killing the Belladonnas' messenger and apprehending Blake, is probably not just some grunt) jumps in through the window (can he glide with those wings?) and starts choking out one of the guards she's protecting, Kali charges him with the tray before we cut out
Blake v Ilia finally starts happening. Blake shows how much her Semblance has evolved by using it as an opener, with neither Ilia nor the camera seeing the moment when the real Blake isn't there anymore. The fight itself is definitely one of the best quality this Volume, with some real use of their weapons' qualities, their own agility, and the environment around them. Ilia shocking Blake during a sword lock to disarm her is a nice touch, for example. And the stops in the action to start talking are actually well-timed at moments when it makes sense for the action to go into a lull to allow for that, such as when Blake is taking cover while Ilia shoots at her.
I feel like Ilia's camouflage shouldn't work as well as it does given that Blake has night vision, though it is nice that Blake noticing Ilia is always because of Ilia making a bit too much noise and her ears picking it up.
Also, Blake's expressions are absolutely hilarious during this fight.
The fighting begins in earnest again. Here's the thing: this fight scene is not how Monty would have done it. But, it's a good fight scene. It's damn good, in fact. I think RWBY might be transitioning away from trying and failing to do fights the way Monty did them, and also moving away from the bad habits of shonen-style action to find their own ground, where they can comfortably make consistently good fight scenes instead of a bunch of low-effort mediocrity to allow for a few real standouts. I hope so, at least. They have recently announced that they have a new head animator for the fight scenes as of now, and looking over the stuff accredited to her she's responsible for a lot of the best sequences/fights in Volumes 4 and 5, so I'm going to take a page out of Ozpin's book and be cautiously optimistic about the future.
It's nice to see the elemental features of Dust actually matter in this fight, rather than the elements just being an excuse to make your energy attacks different colors. Not that RWBY is especially bad about doing that, but it does happen. But in this fight we see both Ilia shocking Gambol Shroud from Blake's hands, and now Blake firing ice bullets to freeze Ilia's whip-sword in place.
Papadonna jumps in, pissed-off and badass. Then he gets distracted by Blake straddling another girl (which... oh God, the jokes that are going to be made) and one of the Albain twins stabs him in the back literally this time. Thankfully he doesn't think to also activate the Lightning Dust in his sai.
So the taller twin with the Sokka hairstyle is apparently the one with more hand-to-hand skills of the two of them, since he matches Ghira blow-for-blow for a while... while Ghira is both low enough on Aura to get stabbed in the back and has been, you know, stabbed in the back. Really close to his spine, too, how the hell is he still up and fighting?
Okay, now the action is starting to lose me again. Ghira and Sokka-Albain suddenly stop actually fighting and just start holding hands and trying to push each other. Seriously, I hate it when that happens in a fight scene, it's so obviously just a way to save on time and animation by stopping the fight without technically stopping the fight. And what the hell is holding Sun up, other than the fact that the scene requires him to come in later?
Now, the fact that no one else is interrupting this hand-holding session is at least sensible here, so kudos on that. Blake and the littlest Albain are both on the ground, and Ilia is visibly conflicted, so we're at least good on that front.
It seems the shorter Albain has a second sai on him, since we don't see him ever pick up the one that skidded on the ground when Ghira threw him into the room. Since the other one doesn't pull one, I guess that makes the short one the more cunning/sneaky of the two, or at least the one with more weapon skills? Either way, it doesn't help him much, since Papadonna is too badass.
Aside from the obvious affection the brothers have for each other, the twins're considerably less stoic as their plans start falling to pieces around them during this raid, even before they start seriously getting their asses kicked.
Okay, so I timed it, and it is almost a full minute before Sun decides to jump in through that hole and get involved again. What the hell was he doing for a solid Goddamn minute? This isn't nearly as bad as last episode with every deciding to just stand around with their thumbs up their asses while the Albain twins were helpless, but Goddamn is it still annoying. It would be so easy to fix, too; remember those two White Fang agents who were with Ilia and Yuma when they jumped Blake? The ones who got sucker-punched? Just say one or both woke up and ran to the mansion, and then when Sun jumps in and dive-kicks an Albain, have one of them walk up to the hole and collapse halfway in it as a visual indicator that Sun has been dealing with that. Hell, I'd buy a WF mook or two, but give me something to latch onto as an explanation for what the hell Sun was doing offscreen.
Sun really shouldn't need Ghira to tell him to help Blake; he's an impulsive guy who's very quick to leap into danger for his friends. That very minor quibble aside, though, it's wonderful to see Sun actually using his Gun-chucks the way God and Monty intended. Yeah, it's not as fast and frenetic as when he used them on Torchwick, but in it's own way it might be even better as a show of just how absurdly awesome a fighter Sun can be when he really cuts loose and shows off how skilled and agile he is with them.
And then we get the staff version of the same stupid thing we saw with Ghira and the other Albain, though it makes a bit more sense here since Sun has an actual reason to believe this isn't a stupid idea, given that he's pressing the mobile and evasive Ilia up against a pillar, and Ilia can't really just do something else (except kick him in the dick). So I'm a little more willing to let this slide.
So uh, Belladaddy is holding up an entire section of their second floor after being stabbed in the back. That cannot be good for his wound. Also, good show of the protective instinct that Ghira has as the former leader of the White Fang and current Chieftain of Menagerie; he's seen Ilia's indecision and Blake's tearful demand that her and Sun stop fighting, and that's all he needs to risk his life to save her. Dude puts his money where his mouth is, man.
Not gonna lie, the shorter Albain trying to attack Ghira while he was busy and ending up getting squashed flat and blown up by the Dust in his weapons made me laugh. F*cking perfect.
And then we see that Mamadonna has, in fact, beat the sh*t out of one of the (presumably) top-ranking WF agents in Menagerie with a wooden tray, and is not even breathing hard when she walks in with his unconscious body. With a smile. The MILFadonna has just gone from a Perfect 10 to an 11, man.
Dear God, that hole is inches from his spine, and close enough to his heart that he has no business walking around, much less carrying two dead weights over his shoulders.
Oh damn, that guard just rubbed some-industrial grade salt into that wound with just four words. Especially since the now-dead brother had been showing concerns about whether it really was the right idea to back Adam and follow his idiotic "plan," IIRC. "Was it worth it?" indeed.
You know, after the hash the Belladonnas made out of their first attempt at a big rallying speech, the one Blake gives is amazing. It's a wonderful contrast to make, and it shows how far Blake has come in her resolve, conviction, and her earnest dedication to making up for her mistakes and learning from them. And the points that she makes about how staying silent and letting others speak for you, even when you don't like what they're saying in your name, is on you? How looking for easy, instant fixes to decades or centuries-long problems that are too complicated for easy answers is doomed to failure? Man, that certainly isn't incredibly applicable to what's going on in the world today.
Pft, Sun pinching Ilia to make them "even" for her stabbing him is hilarious. And fitting; Sun just isn't the kind of guy who has it in him to really hold a deep grudge against someone who shows genuine remorse. He's too... sunny. It shows a bit of his mischievous, joking side in a way that doesn't come off as forced or annoying, too, which is a nice improvement from a lot of Volume 4.
Oh yeah, I'm sure every single person is going to fit on that one ship, and will have plenty of room to walk around and train. Yep, sounds legit.

Q99 · Dec 19, 2017

Ozpin hiding the artifact more closely is interest. It does seem to suggest he suspected Salem would go for a decapitation attack.

Kali's interesting in being someone in that in-between space, she's not a total non combatant but no hunter either.

Illia's black in the dark so... compound effect.

[*]Oh damn, that guard just rubbed some-industrial grade salt into that wound with just four words. Especially since the now-dead brother had been showing concerns about whether it really was the right idea to back Adam and follow his idiotic "plan," IIRC. "Was it worth it?" indeed.

Menagerie guards may not be the first to get on the scene, but they are trained to deliver professional burns.

I hadn't heard of the new head fight animator! Cool.

Zam · Dec 19, 2017

Q99 said:
I hadn't heard of the new head fight animator! Cool.

She's really good!

Some of my fave fight segments in here, she does a great job keeping everything in motion and conveying a sense of speed and weight while keeping it dynamic and acrobatic.

Q99 · Dec 19, 2017

The Sea Serpent fight is probably the closest we had to the S1 Nevermore fight, and the Tyrion battle was one of the best 1v1s in the series IMO

Nicholai · Dec 20, 2017

Zam said:
She left them behind when she moved, I think she can use them to sort of throw herself out of them it seems, like they push her along.

I'm not Q99 but...

Atlas, a foreign military power ruled by a benevolent dictator, was given full control over the security of Vale due to how freaked out the Counselors were and they planned on potentially trying to replace Opzin for his failure.

Why wouldn't they though? They aren't aware of the broader plot and they did stop a big disaster, imagine how much worse it'd have been if the Breach happened but the WF and all their Paladins were there and they'd had more time to lure in more Grimm and no one was there to contain it when it happened. Yes things worked out OK for Cinder but it still counts as a win, especially for RWBY given their context for the situation.

Given they already kill people and RNJR were able to handle, if be upset by, the destruction of villages I think they are already in that mentality. Plus, orchestrating letting Grimm into the kingdoms doesn't seem to be the usual thing that people would be expected to 'adapt' to.

Aren't you doing the same?

A couple of things -
Ironwood, a military commander from a foreign nation, was made head of security for the Vytal festival. The Vale council specifically mentions "reaching out to the Atlas council" but that's all we know. We don't know that Atlas is "ruled by a benevolent dictator" nor is he given "full control over the security of Vale" in Volume 2.

As for viewing it as a success, turn that around. Why would they view it as a victory when their actions (and failure to stop said plot) lead to this very serious issue in Vale? People dying, destruction, negative emotions being a problem? What you are proposing makes sense but that is using logic to expand upon what Volume 2 showed us. Until Volume 3 showed up - particularly the WoR that talked about how negative emotions are a serious concern - it was just logical speculation.

Team RNJR is able to cope with devastation and death. Great! Again, we don't know that in Volume 2. It isn't shown in-story for how many Volumes?

Also please bear in mind that due to Monty's death it was almost a year before Volume 3 started airing. (October 30, 2014 when Volume 2 ended to October 24, 2015 when Volume 3 started.) That's a year for people to get whatever they interpret to be true stuck in their heads.

As for what I'm doing about being subjective versus objective truth? Not really. I'm explaining where I'm coming from and why. Q99 went out of their* way to declare that their viewpoint was the objective truth with quite a bit of insulting language towards anyone who disagrees with them. Q99 is also basically ignoring the main point of the original poster who I stepped in to support - was the change between what we saw at the end of Volume 2 and what we see at the beginning of Volume 3 a retcon?

Based on what people saw, subjectively, and what they took away from the show, subjectively, for more than a year the answer isn't cut and dry. For the people who weren't paying specific attention to the "serious issue" aspects the answer is yes, it was a retcon. For the people who were the answer is no. Volume 3 justified the views they had been holding and espousing for almost a year. Personally I think the answer is somewhere in the middle - the people at RT realized they didn't get the reaction they intended so they went out of their way to steer Volume 3.

I mean it isn't like they actually said that to the fans or anything. Oh, wait! They did mention that when they discussed how Volumes 1 and 2 had gotten away from the outline they had for RWBY. Thus they had to course-correct to get back to the outline.

* - No idea what gender Q99 is so I'm using generic pronouns.

Zam · Dec 20, 2017

Nicholai said:
Ironwood, a military commander from a foreign nation, was made head of security for the Vytal festival. The Vale council specifically mentions "reaching out to the Atlas council" but that's all we know. We don't know that Atlas is "ruled by a benevolent dictator" nor is he given "full control over the security of Vale" in Volume 2.

As for viewing it as a success, turn that around. Why would they view it as a victory when their actions (and failure to stop said plot) lead to this very serious issue in Vale? People dying, destruction, negative emotions being a problem? What you are proposing makes sense but that is using logic to expand upon what Volume 2 showed us. Until Volume 3 showed up - particularly the WoR that talked about how negative emotions are a serious concern - it was just logical speculation.

Team RNJR is able to cope with devastation and death. Great! Again, we don't know that in Volume 2. It isn't shown in-story for how many Volumes?[

Ironwood holds two seats on a (seemingly) three person counsel, controls the academy and the military, I think he more or less qualifies as a dictator given he used his seats as a means to make Jac accept his rules because there was no way he could resist. Plus I am pretty sure Ironwood was indeed put in charge of security based on his dialogue, especially as Ozpin was taken off of it.

Again, no evidence people died. Secondly, while imperfect (They themselves noted it was not a neat and tidy ending) they brought the plan low before it could even begin, rather than a larger mass of Grimm and a small army equipped with mechs attacking by surprise, it was a smaller mass of Grimm that had people there to immediately contain them and the Breach was ended inside twenty minutes, that's a pretty big win from their perspective.

Well one could argue they showed it by handling the Breach as they did, plus Blake's backstory with the White Fang kind of necessitates it and Yang and Ruby had some rather less than fun experiences with death as kids, heck so did Weiss given the White Fang killed people connected to her family.

Nicholai said:
Also please bear in mind that due to Monty's death it was almost a year before Volume 3 started airing. (October 30, 2014 when Volume 2 ended to October 24, 2015 when Volume 3 started.) That's a year for people to get whatever they interpret to be true stuck in their heads.

Not really sure what I can offer you there, people will always reach their own interpretations, but just like people who assumed Ruby was a cold hearted killer, the time in which those assumptions are made and disproved or not, doesn't necessarily make them valid, I guess?

Nicholai said:
As for what I'm doing about being subjective versus objective truth? Not really. I'm explaining where I'm coming from and why. Q99 went out of their* way to declare that their viewpoint was the objective truth with quite a bit of insulting language towards anyone who disagrees with them. Q99 is also basically ignoring the main point of the original poster who I stepped in to support - was the change between what we saw at the end of Volume 2 and what we see at the beginning of Volume 3 a retcon?

Based on what people saw, subjectively, and what they took away from the show, subjectively, for more than a year the answer isn't cut and dry. For the people who weren't paying specific attention to the "serious issue" aspects the answer is yes, it was a retcon. For the people who were the answer is no. Volume 3 justified the views they had been holding and espousing for almost a year. Personally I think the answer is somewhere in the middle - the people at RT realized they didn't get the reaction they intended so they went out of their way to steer Volume 3.

I mean it isn't like they actually said that to the fans or anything. Oh, wait! They did mention that when they discussed how Volumes 1 and 2 had gotten away from the outline they had for RWBY. Thus they had to course-correct to get back to the outline.

* - No idea what gender Q99 is so I'm using generic pronouns.

Yeah I ain't jumping in on any of this, too many personal statements, sorry.

Q99 · Dec 20, 2017

Nicholai said:
As for what I'm doing about being subjective versus objective truth? Not really. I'm explaining where I'm coming from and why. Q99 went out of their* way to declare that their viewpoint was the objective truth with quite a bit of insulting language towards anyone who disagrees with them. Q99 is also basically ignoring the main point of the original poster who I stepped in to support - was the change between what we saw at the end of Volume 2 and what we see at the beginning of Volume 3 a retcon?

Look, I said that people who don't like the show saw things as flaws that people who bought in did not.

And no, it wasn't a retcon. You're talking about whether they set things up- they did. You came here and asked about it and then other people pointed out the same stuff I would've before I had a chance to say anything. "The heroes think it's a win because the Breach could've been so much worse (Grimm came in but *not* the paladins and there were Huntsman *on spot* when otherwise there wouldn't be), but it is still a breach, which is a serious thing as the scene very much shows when the breach happens, just look at the reactions of the civilians, and stuff like the villain's reactions show it was something they viewed as significant enough to be a success, so the viewpoints of multiple characters establish these facts at the time," is what the show shows, and those who buy into the show don't have trouble picking it up, and those who don't, don't. Like, seriously, I'm on RWBY threads on three forums and watched multiple WIWs. The problem you're getting is not a common one, and even when others want clarification, a "Remember these parts...?" results in a quick "Oh yea, forgot about those."

One can argue it's a storytelling flaw because the 'these are bad' signs might not be big enough or in your case you seem to have felt that they were happy to defeat the incursion overroad the negative parts, but they were, objectively, there. And we don't know the full consequences to later but that's because S2 ends right then, and expanding on something that, on the time, was indicated to be a major event is not odd or a retcon.

And then I excused myself from the thread because nitpicking the arguments like this was not the point of the thread.

Tython82 · Dec 20, 2017

CHART TIME!!!!!

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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