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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Via Orbital's post on the SB thread:





    Zam said:
    Ironwood holds two seats on a (seemingly) three person counsel, controls the academy and the military, I think he more or less qualifies as a dictator given he used his seats as a means to make Jac accept his rules because there was no way he could resist.
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    To be fair, we don't really know how many councillors there are on any of the governing councils. For example, the generic council image from WoR Kingdoms shows five figures:



    In V2C12 Breach, Ozpin appeared to be speaking to three figures when he was informed of the Vale Council's decision to put Ironwood in charge of the Vytal Festival's security, but we can't assume that the Atlas Council has the same number of representatives as the Vale Council, or that what we saw was the entire Vale Council.
     
    mistakenot said:
    To be fair, we don't really know how many councillors there are on any of the governing councils. For example, the generic council image from WoR Kingdoms shows five figures:



    In V2C12 Breach, Ozpin appeared to be speaking to three figures when he was informed of the Vale Council's decision to put Ironwood in charge of the Vytal Festival's security, but we can't assume that the Atlas Council has the same number of representatives as the Vale Council, or that what we saw was the entire Vale Council.
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    Except Ironwood all-but explicitly says that his two seats on the council mean he can make decisions like "we're embargoing all the Dust now" and be totally confident that no one's going to stop him.
     
    Leingod said:
    Except Ironwood all-but explicitly says that his two seats on the council mean he can make decisions like "we're embargoing all the Dust now" and be totally confident that no one's going to stop him.
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    Which doesn't necessarily mean that Ironwood commands an absolute majority of the council. It just means Ironwood has disproportionate influence and is confident that no one who might oppose him, such as Jacques, can muster up more votes.

    For example, if the Atlas Council has five seats and Ironwood controls two of them then Ironwood effectively has veto power, as it means Ironwood will have a majority as long as he can persuade at least one of the other three seats to vote with him, and it would take all three of the other seats voting against him to stop him.
     
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    mistakenot said:
    To be fair, we don't really know how many councillors there are on any of the governing councils. For example, the generic council image from WoR Kingdoms shows five figures:



    In V2C12 Breach, Ozpin appeared to be speaking to three figures when he was informed of the Vale Council's decision to put Ironwood in charge of the Vytal Festival's security, but we can't assume that the Atlas Council has the same number of representatives as the Vale Council, or that what we saw was the entire Vale Council.
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    Good insights and points there, I had forgotten about the two up above, though as @Leingod noted, Ironwood does seem to think his two seats mean he can do whatever he wants and Jac seems to agree, plus he still controls the army and academy, which at least in the latter case is not tied to a council seat given the academies are meant to be distinct from the government of the kingdom... That's my take anyway.
     
    mistakenot said:
    Which doesn't necessarily mean that Ironwood commands an absolute majority of the council. It just means Ironwood has disproportionate influence and is confident that no one who might oppose him, such as Jacques, can muster up more votes.
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    Yeah, and on paper Stalin was just the Communist Party's general secretary, what's your point? Ironwood's given every indication that what he says in Atlas goes, and Jacques isn't disagreeing. He's a dictator, no matter what the official situation is.
     
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    mistakenot said:
    That we don't know how many seats are on the Atlas Council? See also my edit to the previous post.

    What's with the flippant remark?
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    I don't want to speak for @Leingod, but if I had to guess I think their point was that what technical rank Ironwood holds, or number of seats exist don't necessarily reflect the reality of his reach. The real world example was basically just citing an overwhelmingly powerful dictator whose title did not really reflect his rank and somehting similar could be said for Ironwood in that even if he has only technically two seats on a five person council he actually controls a third or possibly more.

    Plus there's the whole army and academy thing, he really does concentrate a lot of power to himself :/
     
    Zam said:
    I don't want to speak for @Leingod, but if I had to guess I think their point was that what technical rank Ironwood holds, or number of seats exist don't necessarily reflect the reality of his reach. The real world example was basically just citing an overwhelmingly powerful dictator whose title did not really reflect his rank and somehting similar could be said for Ironwood in that even if he has only technically two seats on a five person council he actually controls a third or possibly more.

    Plus there's the whole army and academy thing, he really does concentrate a lot of power to himself :/
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    Speaking seriously, I don't think Stalin is the correct analogy, and as I've previously tried to explain I think we're making a helluva lotta assumptions here. Speculating that Ironwood's governing style is dictatorial is fine, but stating that he's a military dictator without qualification is treating fanon as fact.

    EDIT: Actually, forget it. My original point was that the number of council seats is clearly unknown, and I refuse to be dragged into this "is Ironwood a fascist/dictator" debate.
     
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    mistakenot said:
    Speaking seriously, I don't think Stalin is the correct analogy, and as I've previously tried to explain I think we're making a helluva lotta assumptions here. Speculating that Ironwood's governing style is dictatorial is fine, but stating that he's a military dictator without qualification is treating fanon as fact.

    EDIT: Actually, forget it. My original point was that the number of council seats is clearly unknown, and I refuse to be dragged into this "is Ironwood a fascist/dictator" debate.
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    Fair enough on both counts.
     
    To share some Where-I-Watch Goodness, I've been enjoying ZephyrtheJester's, Zephyr being a well know WiWer who's done a bunch of shows. Started recently so most of the seasons are in batches but is caught up now so recent updates come soon after the videos.
     
    The Narrator said:
    On the other hand, RWBY didn't spend half a season with its ostensibly-capable female lead being held prisoner and constantly threatened with rape like SAO did.
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    {Looks at Volume 4 Weiss}

    Are you sure about that? Okay, minus the rape threat.


    (I moved from the blind reaction thread to prevent spoilers for the reactor)
     
    Psyga315 said:
    {Looks at Volume 4 Weiss}

    Are you sure about that? Okay, minus the rape threat.


    (I moved from the blind reaction thread to prevent spoilers for the reactor)
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    See, the difference is that Weiss wasn't held captive because she's a helpless damsel before the threat the villain poses and needs Kirito's big, sturdy sword to come thrusting in to save her virtue; the guy keeping her captive is her asshole dad who has a lot of money and a lot of reason to invest in security, so just kicking his ass and fighting her way out is a terrible idea for countless reasons.

    Jacques does not pose anything remotely approximating a physical threat to Weiss; the stuff that kept her at Casa de Schnee was at first all psychological and later was just the fact that kicking her dad's ass wouldn't have really solved anything and she wasn't sure she could just fight her way out of a mansion with security that guys like Adam Taurus presumably can't just slice their way into and out of at a whim.

    So yeah, it's really not even remotely the same thing at all. The only help Weiss needed to get out was Klein pointing her to a time and place where she could get out before anyone knew she was gone. She wasn't powerless and helpless before some creepy rapist, she was trapped in abusive family politics that don't diminish her as a character.
     
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    Weiss gets her ass kicked the most, but she bounces back from it through her own initiative.
     
    Within the context of the SAO story Asuna being helpless made sense, (Heck Kirito was too until the ghost of villains past showed up) but on a narrative level and with the whole 'rape as drama' subject handled about as respectfully and delicately as a trout club, it became pretty messed up.

    In comparison, Weiss's father being awful had build up, her rejecting him in V3 was a show of resistance but the end of V3 left everyone helpless to one degree or another so her being dragged back makes narrative sense, especially when his in universe power and hold on her is considered and the effects it had on her portrayed well and her renewed resolve and escape were under her control, aided by another but still hers.
     
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