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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Not really. If you take Blake's talk about him at Mountain Glenn, he started off as a mix of #1 and 2 but slid into #3 over time.

    Now were they in an abusive relationship by the end? I'd say yes, but not in the 'traditional' physical sense of the word. More in an psychological sense. And the thing is, despite what a lot of media show it as, a person can't just instantly 'get over' abuse (particularly long term) and come out perfectly OK.

    Does she fear Adam? Yup. But that emotion is also tangled up with positive feelings towards him which explains her actions in V2E1. I've only gotten a glimpse of these sorts of relationship through scientific articles etc but one thing is clear: such relationships are never clear-cut in terms of emotions.

    Heck the fact that she managed to defy him like she did at the fall of Beacon despite her fear shows that while his actions have left scars, that she isn't willing to simply fall back into old habits and doesn't want to be part of that relationship anymore.

    There's actually a youtube article that I found had parallels to Blake's situation: Injustice 2: Trauma Survival.
     
    DezoPenguin said:
    But "yandere ex-boyfriend" is another matter. It moves the Adam-Blake storyline away from the ethical conflict over Faunus rights and the means necessary and/or justifiable to achieve them. It means that Blake was a teenaged girl trapped in a relationship with a violent abuser and that she almost certainly ran away from him rather than (or at least equal to) The Cause. This makes her apparent wistful thoughts about him in V2E1 completely out of place. (And if he never showed that side of himself to her while they were together, it makes his characterization completely inconsistent.) It muddies the waters of Blake's character arc about the rights of Faunus, the role of the White Fang, why she stayed with them when Ghira and Kali left the Fang, and what motivated her to finally leave with bad yandere romance tropes. It's disappointing and cliched.
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    I am afraid I cannot agree, though you laid out your thoughts well.

    Yang has never really acknowledge what Adam did to her or his treatment of her, when she speaks of why she left, it is always in reference to what he did to others, when she chose to run it was after their disagreement about mass murdering an innocent crew, not because he personally struck her for example. Sending her against the bot may not have helped, but overall, Blake does not seem willing to admit what was wrong with their relationship.

    Additionally, despite all of that her focus has been heavily focused on her ideals and her conflict with the new directions of the White Fang, Adam himself was not heavily referenced or involved by Blake until he forced himself back into her narrative and even then she has chosen to retake the White Fang rather than say 'defeat Adam'.

    Abuse victims often feel genuine love for their abusers, its why they so often struggle to leave those relationships, rose tinted glasses for the past is not an uncommon problem and it is often encouraged and brought out by the abusers through manipulative tactics.

    Additionally while we cannot vouch for the accuracy of her claim, Blake did say that he got worse over time, imply he may have at one point been better and someone worthy of that drawing and her affection, but the toxic enviroment of the White Fang fostered his anger into something terribly, destructive and evil, which would make reclaiming the White Fang from the one who led the change and the monster its created a rather powerful narrative in my eyes.

    I am confused by your argument regarding Ghira and Kali. Blake felt that they were running from the fight for equal rights and treatment for Faunus and wished to continue. She herself admitted the White Fang's methods worked on some level, but that the moral cost was too high and so she left to try and use her skills to help all people and hopefully try and undo the hatred that has been fostering for generations though she was unsure how.

    Also what is above, well said jwolfe_beta.
     
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    I think you both are mistaking the point of my argument.

    The issue here is that at no point before Adam appeared in V3E11 was there any suggestion that the plotline was fundamentally personal. The conversation in Mountain Glenn doesn't talk about him going from "nice guy" to "abuser"; it talks about how he changed as part of the Fang. Blake's issues with the Fang were about the Fang and their morality. It's not that she opposed their ends, but that eventually their means crossed a line.

    Like, as @Zam notes:

    I am confused by your argument regarding Ghira and Kali. Blake felt that they were running from the fight for equal rights and treatment for Faunus and wished to continue. She herself admitted the White Fang's methods worked on some level, but that the moral cost was too high and so she left to try and use her skills to help all people and hopefully try and undo the hatred that has been fostering for generations though she was unsure how.
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    Do you see what's not in that paragraph? "Running away from an abusive relationship with her ex-boyfriend."

    It introduces a separate and distinct reason for her to run from the Fang. It changes the entire dynamic from when she fights Adam (and I think we all assume that inevitably there will be a showdown with Adam) from being things like "this is not what the fight for Faunus rights should be" and "I will not allow my past to control me" into "I am the heroine of a Lifetime movie and the evil man stalking me must be killed!" (It also means that the only acceptable resolution to the Adam-Blake storyline is that Adam will be killed. By presenting him as an irredeemable obsessive psychotic, he will literally always be a threat to her until he is dead. A terrorist organization can be dismantled or turned to good ends, a criminal can be jailed, but once the storyline has become entirely personal, it can only be "over" when one of them is dead; otherwise he becomes a lingering threat to get out and start his reign of terror and slaughter once again. And he's not a Batman villain with "Joker Immunity" because RWBY is supposed to have an ending when it's done.)

    The tension with fighting Adam used to be the tension with fighting Ilia (you'll note how this new character now fills the role Adam was originally assumed to be in, because that role is necessary and powerful for the Blake/Fang story): Blake is trying to change the Fang's goals and methods, and is forced to fight someone whom she has a past emotional connection to because that person supports those goals and methods. The fight is about the Fang, and the emotional tie adds additional burdens and nuance to the conflict. But with Adam, the Fang is basically irrelevant. Adam will come after Blake and the people Blake cares about, and the Fang has nothing to do with it; he's operating on a personal level. It's elevated the Blake vs. Adam conflict to its own, parallel conflict to Blake vs. Fang. (Moreover, even though they can still combine the resolution of these conflicts--if Adam takes over the "evil Fang" and is the final boss of that arc, then she solves both issues simultaneously--by giving the personal issues and the sociopolitical issues equal weight it means that now there needs to be more time spent on each individual resolution or else one or both will feel "flat" by not having enough proper clean-up time (something that's been RWBY's biggest storytelling flaw as it is).
     
    Its late so I am heading to bed, sorry.
    DezoPenguin said:
    I think you both are mistaking the point of my argument.

    The issue here is that at no point before Adam appeared in V3E11 was there any suggestion that the plotline was fundamentally personal. The conversation in Mountain Glenn doesn't talk about him going from "nice guy" to "abuser"; it talks about how he changed as part of the Fang. Blake's issues with the Fang were about the Fang and their morality. It's not that she opposed their ends, but that eventually their means crossed a line.

    Like, as @Zam notes:
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    I think a big part of my disagreement comes from the fact that the Blake & White Fang story still exists, Adam VS Blake (& possibly Yang given he took her arm) is tied to it thematically in my mind as Adam is becoming/has become an example of all that is wrong with the current White Fang and what their enviroment creates.

    Additionally, the fact Blake focused on the White Fang and continues to do so rather than Adam, to me shows that that story isn't being upended by her issues with Adam.

    I mean until we know more saying it will be flat feels a bit like an assumption to me.

    Plus as you yourself noted:
    DezoPenguin said:
    The tension with fighting Adam used to be the tension with fighting Ilia (you'll note how this new character now fills the role Adam was originally assumed to be in, because that role is necessary and powerful for the Blake/Fang story): Blake is trying to change the Fang's goals and methods, and is forced to fight someone whom she has a past emotional connection to because that person supports those goals and methods.
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    Ilia is filling the role of a conflicted foe, who stands for what Blake does but through different methods. So I don't really see how the story you feel is good and important is gone, its just not Adam in the role, you seem to have expected, the actual struggle is still there.

    Now this is more theory but: Adam is, to me, the embodiment of the sickness Khan inflicted on the White Fang. By removing all decency and respect for fellow people from the organisation, they it allowed people like Adam to flourish, or actively encouraged them to become what they are. Defeating him down doesn't make the Fang irredeemable, especially as Adam isn't the reason it's like that. Adam is a personal villain, there is a potentially larger villain who corrupted an organisation that stood for something Blake cared about deeply in Sienna, they are someone Blake mentioned back in V1 when discussing her motives, her past and how she came to be where and who she is.

    So yeah, I don't really see it, Adam was not portrayed like he would be a good or grey character from the start, he was manipulative, belligerent and an eager mass murderer with little regard for his partners feelings and even less understanding of her, and he relished ind destruction and violence (just listen to him cackling when he powers up) Ilia is the one who strikes me as likely to be the conflicted character in many way representing the complicated struggle for the soul and ideals of the White Fang while dealing with the issues of prejudice and how to tackle it.
     
    Do we know what other conventions Roosterteeth are going to between now and the premiere?

    The last two trailers where at them so it seems reasonable that the yang trailer will get its premiere the same way but I a not sure what is on the schedule.

    There is NYCC but that seems like it is too close to the premiere itself.
     
    Calboon said:
    Do we know what other conventions Roosterteeth are going to between now and the premiere?

    The last two trailers where at them so it seems reasonable that the yang trailer will get its premiere the same way but I a not sure what is on the schedule.

    There is NYCC but that seems like it is too close to the premiere itself.
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    I think I heart about one in England?
     
    Calboon said:
    RTX London which is October 14-15th, which seems too late.

    On a different note what would you guys like to see from the next trailer re: action vs a more quiet story driven thing?
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    Fair enough, sorry I don't keep good track of conventions.

    Me personally, I'd like some kind of flashback to Yang's childhood, perhaps in a dream or something, of course that's for some very specific desires about her plot and such. If there's to be action I'd like to see signs she's still struggling with her trauma.
     
    Calboon said:
    RTX London which is October 14-15th, which seems too late.

    On a different note what would you guys like to see from the next trailer re: action vs a more quiet story driven thing?
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    Its been so long since Yang had a decent fight and I want to see her demonstrate her new "fight smarter, not harder" attitude so I want a fight scene. However I do think it would be cool if they could fit in some hints that she's still struggling with her PTSD though to a lesser extent.

    She's on a motorcycle so it would make sense for her to mostly fight fast moving Grimm like Beowolves and possibly Boarbatusks, but maybe she could also fight a juvenile Nuckelavee that deliberately hammers her trauma button in order to throw her off her game.

    Would be nice to see if the Nuck strain have more tricks up their sleeves that wasn't possible to use when dealing with multiple opponents. Like a poison breath attack or something.
     
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    [Discussion] Chibi Season 2, Episode 18: The Fixer
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    • RWBY Chibi:
    Ah those poor kids, Tai has no idea what he's doing, oh no Bumblebee, leave it to Yang or her mechanic dude! The explosion of water at the end and his desperate attempts to cover up his failure are hilarious, poor Ruby XD

    Pyrrha and Nora are great, Pyrrha'a detection were spot on and Nora just, that was fun, plus puns, the reference was a bit obvious but frankly I feel they earned it for waiting so long and working in Nora + the skeleton.

    Haha, those two have Tai's number, awesome!

    Wow Tai, just see a dentist, also he is so phenomenally extra when he was arguing with Yang
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Zam said:
    Trailers out:

    OK that was super impressive, amazing animation, incredible lighting, great bouncing back and forth between flashback and present time.
    Illia's interference made the get away plausible, especially as both she and Blake can barely seem willing to fight one another and so mentally stumble and freeze up.
    I loved Illia's backstory, seriously, this is the kind of thing I had been hoping to see/hear about Faunus treatment and living since day one, kudos!
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    At last we get a concrete glimpse of what this "Faunus discrimination" thing is about.
     
    Zam said:
    They've popped up or been explained before, though be it imperfectly or not clearly enough I feel. Also kind of confused by the quotes.
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    That's what I was talking about : sure we saw Cardin bullying Velvet, but he's kind of a general dick to everyone, and we were told that Jacques exploit his Faunus workforce almost like slaves in his mines, but he's also kind of a general dick to everyone.
    Here we have someone telling a concrete example of what a Faunus has to live through : having to hide her identity to live a normal life while seeing humans laughing at their misery, lest said life becoming a living hell for her if humans discover her secret.

    In fact, Ilia's story probably explains why Blake was so adamant to hide her Faunus nature back in Beacon, lest her life her will become the same hell it was for Ilia once she revealed her nature.
     
    ElMariachi said:
    That's what I was talking about : sure we saw Cardin bullying Velvet, but he's kind of a general dick to everyone, and we were told that Jacques exploit his Faunus workforce almost like slaves in his mines, but he's also kind of a general dick to everyone.
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    I feel its worth noting that just because someone can be a bad person in general that doesn't undercut bigotry based bullying, exploit ion, abuse or general evil. That is to say, yes they are bad people, but they are also bigots and what's more, utilize other people's bigotry to get away with their behavior. For instance, if we look at Cardin's treatment of Velvet and disparaging remarks about Faunus and rather than focus on Cardin or Velvet, but instead the general reaction then that indicated some fairly pervasive bigotry. Only like tree people showed any real empathy for Velvet and one of them was still more focused on Jaune, everyone else in the cafeteria ignored it at best. Similarly Cardin didn't get punished or called out by seemingly the most progressive teacher in the school for disparaging Faunus as animals in the middle of class, it fell to students to slap him down. To me these present fairly overt examples of pervasive and normalized bigotry, much like the legalized mistreatment Blake mentioned (Stores being allowed to deny Faunus service) and that is without getting into what the world of Remnant covered.

    I agree it has been far from perfect, but I do sometimes feel its been a bit overlooked as well.

    ElMariachi said:
    Here we have someone telling a concrete example of what a Faunus has to live through : having to hide her identity to live a normal life while seeing humans laughing at their misery, lest said life becoming a living hell for her if humans discover her secret.

    In fact, Ilia's story probably explains why Blake was so adamant to hide her Faunus nature back in Beacon, lest her life her will become the same hell it was for Ilia once she revealed her nature.
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    I do agree that Ilia's story was excellent.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Blake took some inspiration from Ilia in that regard, yeah.
     
    Zam said:
    I feel its worth noting that just because someone can be a bad person in general that doesn't undercut bigotry based bullying, exploit ion, abuse or general evil. That is to say, yes they are bad people, but they are also bigots and what's more, utilize other people's bigotry to get away with their behavior. For instance, if we look at Cardin's treatment of Velvet and disparaging remarks about Faunus and rather than focus on Cardin or Velvet, but instead the general reaction then that indicated some fairly pervasive bigotry. Only like tree people showed any real empathy for Velvet and one of them was still more focused on Jaune, everyone else in the cafeteria ignored it at best. Similarly Cardin didn't get punished or called out by seemingly the most progressive teacher in the school for disparaging Faunus as animals in the middle of class, it fell to students to slap him down. To me these present fairly overt examples of pervasive and normalized bigotry, much like the legalized mistreatment Blake mentioned (Stores being allowed to deny Faunus service) and that is without getting into what the world of Remnant covered.
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    What I meant is that in both instances of Cardin and Jacques, the fact that they are assholes to everyone gives the feeling that they are racist because they are assholes, what make Ilia's story different is that from what she inferred, her human friends in prep school were generally nice people, who also happens to have a bigotry against Faunus, as the rest of the population.
    Also where did Blake explains that stores can legally refuse to service Faunus, I don't remember ?
     
    ElMariachi said:
    What I meant is that in both instances of Cardin and Jacques, the fact that they are assholes to everyone gives the feeling that they are racist because they are assholes, what make Ilia's story different is that from what she inferred, her human friends in prep school were generally nice people, who also happens to have a bigotry against Faunus, as the rest of the population.
    Also where did Blake explains that stores can legally refuse to service Faunus, I don't remember ?
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    That's a fair take, though I feel the fact they can get away with it so casually indicated just how pervasive it is and that them being assholes doesn't exactly undercut it, though I take it that was not what you intended to communicate.

    It was when she was explaining the history of the White Fang to Sun, she noted that once they turned to violence one of their more frequent targets was stores that refused to serve Faunus (Along with companies that used Faunus labor) The fact these stores were allowed to exist long enough to become noticeable targets indicates there is no legal protection against such discrimination.
     
    Heh, had a pun idea. I've thought about old Grimm types with the new Maya redesigns and how to make them still relevant. The Deathstalker for example was a cool boss in Volume 1 but doesn't seem like it would be much of a threat now. I was thinking about how to make it still relevant like the Beowolf that actually used weapons and that made me remember the scene were the Deathstalker launched Jaune across the forest. So I was thinking, what if Deathstalkers could impale rocks on their stingers and then launch them at fortifications and villages/cities from a distance, catapult style? They could basically be living siege engines for the Grimm, which is fitting considering what type of animal they are:

    Scorpio (weapon) - Wikipedia
    The scorpio or scorpion was a type of Roman artillery piece.
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    Seriously Rooster Teeth should do it just for the pun value alone, and it would be cool to present a different sort of threat from the Grimm than just the immediate "there is a monster five feet away from you". The gang having to deal with Grimm "artillery platforms" that keep shelling a village/fort/ship that they're protecting seems like it could make for a very tense and awesome fight scene.


    Edit:
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    Catapult!
     
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    The Volume 5 premier is going to be in select theaters on October 12th. They'll also be playing some Volume 4 episodes as well. I like the show and all, but I'm honestly kind of surprised they've got a big enough audience for theaters to be interested in this. Still, depending on how much tickets end up being I may throw down for it.
     
    SerGregness said:
    The Volume 5 premier is going to be in select theaters on October 12th. They'll also be playing some Volume 4 episodes as well. I like the show and all, but I'm honestly kind of surprised they've got a big enough audience for theaters to be interested in this. Still, depending on how much tickets end up being I may throw down for it.
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    The thing to keep in mind is that this is only in select theaters and is catering to a pre-existing fanbase. Basically it succeeds by aiming for a niche market rather than a wider and more expensive release.
     
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