RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Zam · Feb 20, 2020

Leingod said:
Sure, and that means that Mistral seems to blur the lines between "police" and "military/militia." You don't call in just the cops to deal with foreign terrorists about to blow up one of your most important state institutions unless the cops are basically also military at this point.

Or unless you don't actually have a military.

Like I can totally see Mistral having a militarize police force its meant to be a shady as heck place, and given Remnant one can even quasi justify it, but as it is, I am pretty confident the world building established only Atlas has a standing army.

Leingod · Feb 20, 2020

Zam said:
Or unless you don't actually have a military.

Like I can totally see Mistral having a militarize police force its meant to be a shady as heck place, and given Remnant one can even quasi justify it, but as it is, I am pretty confident the world building established only Atlas has a standing army.

Sure, and let's make sure we've got our terms clear.

Army reserve - Enrolled for the long term, but the majority are never on active duty until war or natural disaster strikes, though they report for regular training (say, one weekend out of every month).

Temporary army - Drawn from the civilian population during times of war (or a threat of war/disaster) and then disbanded once the war (or threat) is over.

Standing army - A permanent army that is not disbanded during times of peace, and where you are on active duty for the length of your service.

Atlas being the only kingdom to have the third does not mean that everyone else only has the second and the first doesn't exist. Neither does Mistral being decentralized; at most that just means it's up to individual cities and towns to organize and equip their own army reserve if they want one, like individual states in the U.S. all do.

EDIT: Also, common duties of military reserve forces in peacetime include: garrison duty, disaster relief, manning air defense, internal security, and the guarding of important points like supply depots, communication nodes, air and sea bases, and other vital areas.

Zam · Feb 20, 2020

Leingod said:
Sure, and let's make sure we've got our terms clear.

Army reserve - Enrolled for the long term, but not on active duty until war or natural disaster strikes.

Temporary army - Drawn from the civilian population during times of war (or a threat of war/disaster) and then disbanded once the war (or threat) is over.

Standing army - A permanent army that is not disbanded during times of peace, and where you are on active duty for the length of your service.

Atlas being the only kingdom to have the third does not mean that everyone else only has the second and the first doesn't exist. Neither does Mistral being decentralized; at most that just means it's up to individual cities and towns to organize and equip their own army reserve if they want one, like individual states in the U.S. all do.

EDIT: Also, common duties of military reserve forces in peacetime include: garrison duty, manning air defense, internal security, and the guarding of important points like supply depots, communication nodes, air and sea bases, and other vital areas.

Thanks for the outline on terms that is very handy.

An army reserve is definitely possible, though as noted I feel the World of Remnant episodes imply otherwise, with Militia likely being more common, especially in a place like Anima where the central government has limited influence and power.

Though I confess, I am unsure what you're specifically arguing here, as I was really only against the implication of a standing army in the mind of Atlas or the US being a common thing, the other two options seem quite reasonable, though in that context I am fairly sure the one's we saw flying were still cops or militarized cops though given the uniforms.

Mook · Feb 20, 2020

I mean.... The existence and early mention of something like the Remnant Board Game (Risk basically) and the fact that war is mentioned as a possibility several times gives me the impression that Atlas isn't the only nation in the world capable of projecting military force outside it's borders.

Remnant: The Game

Remnant: The Game is a board game in Remnant with the objective of conquering the world. Team RWBY is seen playing the game in "Welcome to Beacon". The objective of the game is to conquer Remnant by successfully acquiring control of all four kingdoms on the board map. Starting with one region, a...

rwby.fandom.com

Vale does have these things:

Which don't seem like they're that much smaller than the big Atlesian warships. And they're probably heavily armed in some way knowing what Remnant air travel is like.

Leingod · Feb 20, 2020

Zam said:
Thanks for the outline on terms that is very handy.

An army reserve is definitely possible, though as noted I feel the World of Remnant episodes imply otherwise, with Militia likely being more common, especially in a place like Anima where the central government has limited influence and power.

Though I confess, I am unsure what you're specifically arguing here, as I was really only against the implication of a standing army in the mind of Atlas or the US being a common thing, the other two options seem quite reasonable, though in that context I am fairly sure the one's we saw flying were still cops or militarized cops though given the uniforms.

I'm arguing that the lack of a standing army does not automatically equate to "all non-Atlas kingdoms are totally reliant on Huntsmen or cops for everything related to protecting people."

After all, IRL most modern militias are also effectively reserve armies, with professional training, equipment, and duties. Again: See the U.S. National Guard for one example.

Pugman · Feb 20, 2020

well "Cops" and "Police" sound nicer than "Military" and "Army"
Also Atlas does not know how to be subtle in ANYTHING

jwolfe_beta · Feb 20, 2020

Mook said:
I mean.... The existence and early mention of something like the Remnant Board Game (Risk basically) and the fact that war is mentioned as a possibility several times gives me the impression that Atlas isn't the only nation in the world capable of projecting military force outside it's borders.

I could have sworn that was supposed to be set during the Great War or something.

Zam · Feb 20, 2020

Mook said:
I mean.... The existence and early mention of something like the Remnant Board Game (Risk basically) and the fact that war is mentioned as a possibility several times gives me the impression that Atlas isn't the only nation in the world capable of projecting military force outside it's borders.

Remnant: The Game

Remnant: The Game is a board game in Remnant with the objective of conquering the world. Team RWBY is seen playing the game in "Welcome to Beacon". The objective of the game is to conquer Remnant by successfully acquiring control of all four kingdoms on the board map. Starting with one region, a...

rwby.fandom.com

I thought that was set during the Great War?

Mook said:
Vale does have these things:

Which don't seem like they're that much smaller than the big Atlesian warships. And they're probably heavily armed in some way knowing what Remnant air travel is like.

True but they seemed to be used as student transports and if nothing else we've never seen them in battle or show offf weapons.

Leingod said:
I'm arguing that the lack of a standing army does not automatically equate to "all non-Atlas kingdoms are totally reliant on Huntsmen or cops for everything related to protecting people."

After all, IRL most modern militias are also effectively reserve armies, with professional training, equipment, and duties. Again: See the National Guard.

An understandable take, though I think militia were already established as well to be fair, but fair enough.

Psyga315 · Feb 21, 2020

jwolfe_beta said:
"Hey it's me! The guy that has been doing everything possible to make my kingdom and myself look like warmongers building up for a crusade of conquest against you all. But in reality it's all been for you! All you need to do is give me your loyality and it'll be jolly cooperation for everybody against an ancient evil that I haven't a lick of proof about but I'm insisting is out there! Really, believe me."

I mean, he ended up succeeding in telling the public about Salem without them throwing a huge panic over it...

Until he found the chess piece.

jwolfe_beta · Feb 21, 2020

Psyga315 said:
I mean, he ended up succeeding in telling the public about Salem without them throwing a huge panic over it...

It helped that he had Robyn there proving that he was actually telling the truth.

But what if she wasn't there, most of the escalation via Watts and Tyrain hadn't occurred, he wasn't visibly saving Mantle from a massive Grimm attack etc? (basically set conditions to chapter one of V7) The guy was not exactly beloved down there.

Zam · Feb 21, 2020

jwolfe_beta said:
It helped that he had Robyn there proving that he was actually telling the truth.

But what if she wasn't there, most of the escalation via Watts and Tyrain hadn't occurred, he wasn't visibly saving Mantle from a massive Grimm attack etc? (basically set conditions to chapter one of V7) The guy was not exactly beloved down there.

Indeed, though it is worth noting Robyn's Semblance wouldn't be much help outside Mantle where she is beloved, trusted and above all know. Anyone can claim they have a truth detecting Semblance, but people will only believe that is the truth if they trust the individual in question and outside of Mantle/Atlas Robyn is not a known entity. Plus him promising to evacuate everyone and acting like all their hardships were A, someone else's fault and B, over, likely helped. As it is if he tried alone I expect it would fail and similarly outside this content I doubt most would take to it or Atlas's "We just gonna move our military in to help" strategy all that well.

Mook · Feb 21, 2020

jwolfe_beta said:
I could have sworn that was supposed to be set during the Great War or something.

Zam said:
I thought that was set during the Great War?

To quote Ruby: "Nope."

When they play the game Ruby mentions that she can repair her airships faster because Atlas is a part of Mantle. Atlas only came into existence after the Great War.

Ruby also cries about losing her "fearless soldiers" to which Yang responds that most of them are androids. Going by the tech level we saw in the Great War WoR it doesn't seem like Mantle was at the level of having drone armies yet at that point.

Zam said:
True but they seemed to be used as student transports and if nothing else we've never seen them in battle or show offf weapons.

Ironwood used his warships as student transports too though. And Bullheads, Atlas Dropsships and Mantas are also used for transport but they are also heavily armed. I strongly suspect the only reason we haven't seen weapons on Mistral airships yet is because the focus hasn't been on them being in a fight. Even cruise ships and trains are heavily armed so no reason Vale's big airships wouldn't be.

Plus Volume 3 introduced those air bus ships that looked a lot more like pure civilian transports.

Zam · Feb 21, 2020

Mook said:
To quote Ruby: "Nope."

When they play the game Ruby mentions that she can repair her airships faster because Atlas is a part of Mantle. Atlas only came into existence after the Great War.

Ruby also cries about losing her "fearless soldiers" to which Yang responds that most of them are androids. Going by the tech level we saw in the Great War WoR it doesn't seem like Mantle was at the level of having drone armies yet at that point.

Huh, wild, that does raise some questions though given the World of Remnant, but yeah maybe Army Reserve is the key XD

Mook said:
Ironwood used his warships as student transports too though. And Bullheads, Atlas Dropsships and Mantas are also used for transport but they are also heavily armed. I strongly suspect the only reason we haven't seen weapons on Mistral airships yet is because the focus hasn't been on them being in a fight. Even cruise ships and trains are heavily armed so no reason Vale's big airships wouldn't be.

Plus Volume 3 introduced those air bus ships that looked a lot more like pure civilian transports.

Fair points there, though that does mean the line between military vessels and civilian is more blurred.

True, true.

Mook · Feb 21, 2020

Zam said:
Fair points there, though that does mean the line between military vessels and civilian is more blurred.

That's also something that Aura and Dust in general does. A Burn Dust crystal can be used to heat a home and cook food, but it's also hilariously easy to turn it into a bomb, and probably not too much harder to make it a flamethrower.

Anyway remember all those troubling signs we spotted with how Marrow is treated? Yeah that wasn't a coincidence.

Zam · Feb 21, 2020

Mook said:
That's also something that Aura and Dust in general does. A Burn Dust crystal can be used to heat a home and cook food, but it's also hilariously easy to turn it into a bomb, and probably not too much harder to make it a flamethrower.

Those are true facts, Remnant is a dangerous place.

Mook said:
Anyway remember all those troubling signs we spotted with how Marrow is treated? Yeah that wasn't a coincidence.

Very interesting, and ooh so that explains where that comic I saw came from, thanks for sharing!

I'm always a touch wary of taking from Amity given some past content, but this lines up so well with what we've seen, poor Marrow.

Also this is cool, Yang's prosthetic arm and how it functions:

gwainknight · Feb 21, 2020

Well this seems to be going in circles, so I'm changing tracks.

Huge missed opportunity for a Neo vs Yang rematch. Or Neo betraying Cinder and stabbing her in the back by taking the Relic for herself, in a 'fuck you I got mine" manner. Yeah yeah, I can already hear people bleating "next volume maybe" but remember back in v6 with Adam's SDC brand and some people felt it was tacked on? I kept seeing people say "oh it's a setup for next volume, when we see how bad the faunus have it!" Well here we are, at the end of the next volume, and whaddya know? No payoff on that front. No visible faunus exploitation, no talk about branding, basically no racism in the supposed heart of racist land. Jacques got arrested, but it had nothing to do with the Faunus issue and Blake had nothing to do with his capture. IMHO there should have been more of a focus on faunus mistreatment, and it's a double victory for Blake and Weiss as they both have their own separate reasons for arresting Jacques, and work together to accomplish it.

Zam · Feb 21, 2020

gwainknight said:
Well this seems to be going in circles, so I'm changing tracks.

Huge missed opportunity for a Neo vs Yang rematch. Or Neo betraying Cinder and stabbing her in the back by taking the Relic for herself, in a 'fuck you I got mine" manner. Yeah yeah, I can already hear people bleating "next volume maybe" but remember back in v6 with Adam's SDC brand and some people felt it was tacked on? I kept seeing people say "oh it's a setup for next volume, when we see how bad the faunus have it!" Well here we are, at the end of the next volume, and whaddya know? No payoff on that front. No visible faunus exploitation, no talk about branding, basically no racism in the supposed heart of racist land. Jacques got arrested, but it had nothing to do with the Faunus issue and Blake had nothing to do with his capture. IMHO there should have been more of a focus on faunus mistreatment, and it's a double victory for Blake and Weiss as they both have their own separate reasons for arresting Jacques, and work together to accomplish it.

I actually agree with some of this.

1: I'm fine with no Yang VS Neo rematch, I never got the impression that fight left much of an impression in either of them.
2: I really, really wanted Neo to try and betray Cinder by taking the Relic for herself, or aligning with Oscar in some scheme and while betraying her is still possible in the future I confess I am wary.
3: I have mixed feelings on this. Broadly speaking I agree, (Also I want Sienna "The Hero Queen" Khan back) there should have been more focus on the SDC's abuse and exploitation of Faunus. I do think RT has gotten better at handling this topic, like Marrow's discussion of systemic oppression, all the miners and servants being Faunus. However I am unsure Blake should have been involved in taking Jac down, because while Blake's definitely faced bigotry she'd never been in the mines or lost anyone to them personally, so while she has a morale claim there she has less of a narrative one, were Ilia present I'd have said she 'definitely' should have been involved. Though given we're seeing the mining town at the end of the volume there could be more to come.

Historyman14 · Feb 21, 2020

Honestly, Neo betraying Cinder is all, but certain going to happen. Neo wanted the same relation she had with Roman, but it just not happening. She blames Ruby for Roman's death, but Cinder still bare much of that and in the back of her mind, Neo knows that.

Zam · Feb 21, 2020

RWBY & Postmodernism:

"I'm still supremely interested in the postmodernist elements in RWBY - today, it's the way it plays with literary genres and allusions. I've already said that Salem and Oz's origin story follows pretty clearly the beats of an epic poem, and so it has them be world builders in the most literal sense. Fairy tales abound as that weird double reference between history and folk tradition (that's why by "fairy tales", RWBY means the stories that have been reworked and adapted and thus reclaimed by popular conventions - hence why The Wizard of Oz fits into it imo). Pyrrha's fate was informed by the genre of the tragedy, and I'm still looking forward to seeing how Jaune's allusion being so clearly historical instead of fictional might unfold.

But it's interesting that, to figure out what exactly the Apathy was, Maria had to research and read Bartleby's diaries. Novels as we know them come from the 19th century. The rise of novels in literary history is linked with better literacy in the general population, with the beginning of individual reading on a greater scale, and most importantly, with a clear shift towards individualism in countries touched by the industrial revolution. Novels speak of the individual, it's their greatest strength: characters in novels are first and foremost individuals, before they can symbolize anything. The story belongs to them.

(I say that, knowing full well Bartleby is a short story and that it screws my analysis a bit, but I feel like the themes of the story make up for it: in a way, Bartleby refuses to wield the story to anyone else, refuses to comply with anyone's expectations. He's a nobody, but a nobody who - we are forced to acknowledge - matters in his individuality)

The Apathy is all about one man's mistake, and the consequences it has on others. In RWBY, it doesn't serve as a cautionary tale, so much as a deeper look into what Grimm can do, what living in the world of Remnant can mean for those who don't have the means to defend themselves. It's not about heroes, or fairies, and it doesn't have any bearing on the shape of the world. Bartleby doesn't change the world, he can't. His sphere of influence is only as good as his farm - and his writings.

Volume 6 was a bit of a lull in the narrative: we got a lot of backstory. I don't think it was a coincidence that after showing us the story between the two most powerful people in the world (the ones who literally shaped the world as it is now), RWBY followed it up by telling us the story of someone who set out on his own with his friends and family, tried to change his own condition, and failed."

Clover Ebi & David from Camp Camp

"Clover Ebi looks like a buff version of David from Camp Camp and now that I have seen this I will never unsee it.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

THAT'S WHO HE REMINDS ME OF.
I've been wracking my brain for months!

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

Disproportionately chipper attitude, improbable good luck*, fiercely loyal to a shady boss and broken city whose flaws he is voluntarily oblivious to, likes mentoring kids, much less enthusiastic coworkers and students, it's him. Now to see if he's capable of similar character development, or if he's the evil foil.
*Yes David has good luck, it's just that Camp Campbell is incredibly cursed. The fact that he keeps getting into accidents is less important than him continuously surviving the Camp's attempts to murder him.

Oh my God he doesn't just look like David, he is the "dark foil" to David, who David could have been if he kept obeying Cameron regardless of his own morality or responsibilities to his kids. They literally took one of their comedy characters and gave him a dark foil in their more dramatic show. That's goddamn hilarious."

The parallel of two lonely Schneeblings

Pugman · Feb 21, 2020

I think instead of focusing on racial exploitation, they showed that things are much worse than that in Solitas.
You don't need constant examples of it up in your face to know that shit is going on. You just have to know where to look, and chose to look at it.
Also, if you know history of our world, you can look at the sister cities and see as soon as our heroes arrive shit is not fair and balanced, and likely has not been as such for as long as Jac has run the SDC.
Basically Atlas has problems that go beyond racism, racism just happens to be the easiest thing for anyone to point out because that is as easy as looking at someone even remotely different from you and going "You are different, therefore I hate you." And more so when you get other people on both sides adding fuel to that fire either accidentally or on purpose.

Zam · Feb 21, 2020

Look I just enjoy Watts OK XD

Also one of my fave comments:
"2:30 Watts shuts off the heating in Mantle with the same attitude as someone checking their phone while waiting at a bus stop. He is acting so nonchalant as he dramatically stands on a roof top in the rain."

Also someone there suggested Watts, Tyrian and Neo teaming up for maximum theatrical drama queens and I kinda love it, honestly I think Neo would like working with Watts more than Cinder.

Pugman said:
I think instead of focusing on racial exploitation, they showed that things are much worse than that in Solitas.
You don't need constant examples of it up in your face to know that shit is going on. You just have to know where to look, and chose to look at it.
Also, if you know history of our world, you can look at the sister cities and see as soon as our heroes arrive shit is not fair and balanced, and likely has not been as such for as long as Jac has run the SDC.
Basically Atlas has problems that go beyond racism, racism just happens to be the easiest thing for anyone to point out because that is as easy as looking at someone even remotely different from you and going "You are different, therefore I hate you." And more so when you get other people on both sides adding fuel to that fire either accidentally or on purpose.

Kinda uncomfortable with the both-sidism idea to be honest. I will add though that Jac being taken down for exploitation of Faunus (Legally) was unlikely anyway given he's gotten away with everything so far. The two Atlas councilors aren't as bad as him or Ironwood, but they're clearly far from perfect.

Pugman · Feb 21, 2020

Watts is a Bard/Artificer.

jwolfe_beta · Feb 22, 2020

Pugman said:
Watts is a Bard/Artificer.

MurderofBirds agrees with you.

Pugman · Feb 22, 2020

So Red finally did a video on Robin Hood

[MEDIA]

Now if only we got more of Robyn and her Happy Huntresses.

Nidhoggr · Feb 22, 2020

Zam said:
Also someone there suggested Watts, Tyrian and Neo teaming up for maximum theatrical drama queens and I kinda love it, honestly I think Neo would like working with Watts more than Cinder.

You think Cinder isn't a maximum theatrical drama queen? Because I'm fairly certain she's been that since the very beginning.

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Good Civ Inspector

Immaculate Blooming Lotus

Immaculate Blooming Lotus

Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord

Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord

Banned Forever

Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord

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