RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

The Great War wasn't against any empire trying to suppress individuality.

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Then who was it against, and why did Ozpin talk so much about the suppression of individuality and destruction of art? About how that was something many could not stand?

Tell us what YOU think Ozpin is talking about.


Also, it might really be cool if you could point out what it is I do or say that you actually like.

I have literally no idea what you like about my work, because you never stop talking about what you hate.

I even do mean "literally" literally. Normally, I say that when I have ideas but no proof that those ideas are correct, but in this case it means that I absolutely do not have a single clue what part of my writing actually meets your approval.

 

[thesevenwielder]

Then who was it against, and why did Ozpin talk so much about the suppression of individuality and destruction of art?

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I don't remember Ozpin talking about the suppression of individuality or the destruction of art. If it's part of the show and I've forgotten it, then fucking cite it. How hard is that to understand. Episode. And. Timestamp. If you cannot provide it, then you admit to debating in bad faith. If you can prove it exists, then fine. I can admit when I'm wrong. But you haven't provided any citations.

Also, it might really be cool if you could point out what it is I do or say that you actually like.

I have literally no idea what you like about my work, because you never stop talking about what you hate.

I even do mean "literally" literally. Normally, I say that when I have ideas but no proof that those ideas are correct, but in this case it means that I absolutely do not have a single clue what part of my writing actually meets your approval.

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Jesus Christ how hard is this concept for you to understand? I fucking like a lot of your theories and ideas.. My issue comes solely from you acting like your theories are actually canon and not the fan speculation they are.

 

[NorthSouthGorem]

I don't remember Ozpin talking about the suppression of individuality or the destruction of art. If it's part of the show and I've forgotten it, then fucking cite it.

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Here you go.

 

[Tython82]

Here you go.

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Seems to be broken, then again I am on my phone right now so maybe that is the problem.

Edit: seems to work after I quote it.

 

[thesevenwielder]

Here you go.

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Fair enough.

Now how hard was that, @Sunder the Gold? You could have avoided all this if you'd taken two minutes out of your day to find the episode and link it. But no, you had to waste even more time ranting that I was wrong, amd I had to repeatedly request a citation like five times. And in the end, you didn't even provide the cite.

And like I promised, I concede. There was a war against art or whatever. I interpret it a bit differently than you do, but Ozpin did say it. That's all I wanted.

 

[Monochrome_Tide]

Fair enough.

Now how hard was that, @Sunder the Gold? You could have avoided all this if you'd taken two minutes out of your day to find the episode and link it. But no, you had to waste even more time ranting that I was wrong, amd I had to repeatedly request a citation like five times. And in the end, you didn't even provide the cite.

And like I promised, I concede. There was a war against art or whatever. I interpret it a bit differently than you do, but Ozpin did say it. That's all I wanted.

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You're kinda being a jerk, thesevenwielder.

 

[anailater]

You're kinda being a jerk, thesevenwielder.

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Eh, he's being a bit of a jerk sure, but he is right.

 

[Random832]

Now how hard was that, @Sunder the Gold?

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It was hard because other people were also arguing that that exact episode wasn't a valid citation, meaning they (and by implication you) were arguing some obscure point about whether it should be called an "empire" rather than the basic, as far as anyone knew undisputed, canon fact that the war was fought over an attempt to suppress individuality.

And maybe you could have taken some goddamn initiative to go look at the episode and time code that r0b0panda was talking about. Sunder didn't mention it because it had already been mentioned and your side had moved on to trying to (pre-emptively!) dismiss it.

 

[thesevenwielder]

Dude, all I wanted was a cite for the whole "suppression of individuality" thing. I had to keep asking for it. Now I have it, but that I had to ask more than once, let alone five times, for that cite is ridiculous.

 

[Random832]

Dude, all I wanted was a cite for the whole "suppression of individuality" thing. I had to keep asking for it. Now I have it, but that I had to ask more than once, let alone five times, for that cite is ridiculous.

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The cite was already provided. By someone on your side, trying to pre-emptively dismiss it.

And Sunder? Volume 2, Chapter 8, Field Trip starting at about 6:20 DOES NOT COUNT. That does NOT mean what you want it to mean.

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You have no excuse. After that point the citation was known to all and the argument was about whether it supports the claim (or whether there was a substantive claim beyond what the citation supports)

 

[Sunder the Gold]

And Sunder? Volume 2, Chapter 8, Field Trip starting at about 6:20 DOES NOT COUNT. That does NOT mean what you want it to mean.

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Yeah, can't use evidence that people categorically declare isn't evidence.

I mean, I was going to anyway, but I was getting too pissed off and left to cool down.

I never considered the idea that @thesevenwielder had honestly straight up actually forgot Ozpin's speech. Especially after robopanda gave the exact citation.

I'm rather used to arguing with people who know exactly what someone said any but claim it meant something completely different.

 

[Tython82]

However, we don't know the exact circumstances for the war on individuality/destruction of art etc. That also doesn't mean there was a fifth kingdom at all since I think Ozpin would have mentioned that in his speech.

We also have no idea if Salem is connected to the war or is simply a casualty of the war or that she became what she is as a result of something else during said war or if she was even involved in the war at all. Her image song seems to be targeting Ozpin directly and given that Ozpin is far older then he looks since Qrow and company were in school for there first year while he was still head master and that he told Ruby that he has made far more mistakes then anyone else does indicate that something is up with how old he is.

For example given the story of the four maidens could Ozpin have been the wizard in question who gave the maidens his powers and the mistakes he talked about were how the powers were used after the original four died? Could the mistakes be related to the Grimm after all where did they come from how long have they actually been around, and of course there is Salem what exactly is she and is she a former lover of Ozpins/Student/Rival/Family Member or something else completely different in relation to him.

Then we have the relic that Raven and Salem bring up, what is it? Who made it?(Ozpin perhaps)How does it work? What is it's purpose and why does Salem having it mean the end of the world?

While Sunder the Gold does have some interesting theories that is all that they are at the moment since we are still missing far to many pieces of the puzzle to indicate what the hell happened and why such a war took place.
Personal theory on the war was that a group of extremists thought that by suppressing individuality and such would reduce Grimm since they would have no emotion to feed on or use a tracker.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

However, we don't know the exact circumstances for the war on individuality/destruction of art etc. That also doesn't mean there was a fifth kingdom at all since I think Ozpin would have mentioned that in his speech.

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And Qrow didn't mention it, either.

I still think that a fifth kingdom existed on the fifth continent, but if it did, it fell before the Great War.

It's possible that the fifth kingdom's fall might have sparked the Great War. Maybe it collapsed because of internal pressures, or maybe it was at war with only one kingdom. Either way, there was suddenly a lot of land, cities, and resources up for grabs, and the two alliances might have been fighting to see who got to control the place. But there's no real evidence to support this idea.

There were no red soldiers in the WoR: Vacuo episode. Since three whole kingdoms showed up to bully Vacuo, and the fifth continent is actually closer to Vacuo than Vale, this would seem like evidence that the fifth, red kingdom fell BEFORE Vacuo lost its Great Oasis to exploitation.

For example given the story of the four maidens could Ozpin have been the wizard in question

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He tells Pyrrha that the story of the Maidens has been around before Ozpin was a boy. If that wasn't true, he would have no reason to say it to Pyrrha. She wasn't asking him questions that he needed to deflect, and he had total control over the conversation.

If Ozpin was, in fact, telling the truth, then it's possible that he did grow up as a normal boy hearing the legend of the Maidens, but then he inherited the memories of the original wizard as Oscar might be inheriting Ozpin's memories. If Ozpin gained the wizard's memories after he was a boy, that would satisfy those people who insist the way he told the story of the Four Maidens in the WoR episode sounded like someone who'd actually been involved in the story rather than merely hearing about it.

As for why the ancient people needed to learn how the Maiden powers transferred through trial and error, it's possible that the wizard didn't actually know the specifics himself. No one perfectly understands how their inventions will behave.

Alternatively, the wizard continued to live for a long, long time after giving the Maidens his powers, and by the time he died and his knowledge passed on to another, several Maidens had already died and the ancient people figured things out for themselves.

 

[Tython82]

I still think that a fifth kingdom existed on the fifth continent, but if it did, it fell before the Great War.

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On the other hand the fifth continent might also be full of Super Ancient Grimm making it impossible for them to successfully set up a kingdom due to there immense power, meaning it could also be where Salem is at the moment since we also have no idea where she is or how she recruited Cinder and the others into her group.

 

[ZeroXSEED]

Regardless, Colorless empire is now bunk, and every time someone present it as canon from today and onward, god kills a kitten.

That's it.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Regardless, Colorless empire is now bunk, and every time someone present it as canon from today and onward, god kills a kitten.

That's it.

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Uh, no.

Heck, even @thesevenwielder now agrees that "the colorless empire" makes sense as a theory, based on Ozpin's speech. And until we know who they were and what their name was, we have to call them SOMETHING.

 

[Tython82]

Uh, no.

Heck, even @thesevenwielder now agrees that "the colorless empire" makes sense as a theory, based on Ozpin's speech. And until we know who they were and what their name was, we have to call them SOMETHING.

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Actually what he is saying is that your Theories are interesting but until otherwise stated/proven they are not canon which is the narrative you seem to be making at the moment.

Also again we don't know if there was a fifth kingdom at all we don't know anything about this war at the moment except for what tiny details we have, and what we have is not much at all about who started it who ended it and how. Then again you have Cinders rant about Mistral so maybe they were made to bare the brunt of the war or that they were the scapegoats again we have no idea. So let's wait a little and see how things turn out if we can get a few more details about this great war that ended 80 years prior to the series.

 

[Random832]

Also again we don't know if there was a fifth kingdom at all

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The mere use of the term "colorless empire" does not entail a claim that there was a fifth kingdom. It's a simple stand-in name for the side that lost a war that is known to have happened.

Though I do have to wonder what people who say there was no fifth kingdom make of this map:

Spoiler

 

[Tython82]

The mere use of the term "colorless empire" does not entail a claim that there was a fifth kingdom. It's a simple stand-in name for the side that lost a war that is known to have happened.

Though I do have to wonder what people who say there was no fifth kingdom make of this map:

Spoiler

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Except we have no clue who lost that war just that a great war was fought and won 80 years prior to the events of the series.

 

[Zam]

One thing I really liked about the WOR is that even if it made the timeline a little confusing it does help explain the White Fang, not justify by any means murdering civilians is still wrong, but a more overtly stated "This is all the horrible crap that has been done to Faunus throughout history" when combined with the fact stores even in the "Progressive" Vale still deny them service and people like Cardin can go about more or less as they please, does help paint a picture of a people that would really, really want to punch back.

Add in that the majority of Menagrie's founding population likely consisted of either Faunus trying to get 'away' from humans or Faunus forced there and you've got a powder keg of resentment made right at the foundation of a new society, helping explain the White Fang seemingly holding influence there.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Except we have no clue who lost that war just that a great war was fought and won 80 years prior to the events of the series.

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Where does it say that [Vale and Vacuo] won?

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...It doesn't. It never DID say if anyone won the war, just that everyone eventually became desperate for compromise.

Still, someone clearly lost more than others, as evidenced by the fact that SOMEONE had to give up on oppressing self-expression and destroying art, and someone had to give up an entire continent.

If any kingdom had a claim to Menagerie, it was probably Mistral, being the closest.

Vacuo is the kingdom that treats faunus the best, and it opposed Mistral. Atlas is home to the SDC which apparently gets away with poorly treating its faunus laborers, and Atlas used to be Mistral's ally of Mantle.

Vacuo is also the kingdom least likely to oppress individualism, in no small part because they would be the least capable of enforcing such a policy. Mantle, being the smallest and most centralized kingdom, would find it easiest to enforce, and quite possibly had the most to gain from indoctrinating conformity into its people, so that they could serve in its vitally-important military.

the fact stores even in the "Progressive" Vale still deny them service

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As you admitted over on SB, this is not actually a proven fact, as we've never seen it happen or heard about it happening. It is, however, most plausible that there are at least a few racist business owners who refuse to service faunus.

Or even many more than "a few".

The mere use of the term "colorless empire" does not entail a claim that there was a fifth kingdom.

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Exactly.

It is a FACT that something we are forced to call "the colorless empire" existed; there was a faction dedicated to destroying art and oppressing individual self-expression, even if that wasn't their only goal for waging war. Ozpin makes it very clear that the war had put such a thing on the line, and people fought to keep their art and identities. People across the world started naming their children after colors.

This is completely independent from the theory that there was once a fifth kingdom, especially since the "colorless kingdom" could have been Mantle.

 

[Zam]

As you admitted over on SB, this is not actually a proven fact, as we've never seen it happen or heard about it happening. It is, however, most plausible that there are at least a few racist business owners who refuse to service faunus.

Or even many more than "a few".

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Blake specifically told Sun the White Fang torched stores that refuse to serve Faunus, so we have heard about it, as for not seeing it, as I've said before, Blake is the only consistent Faunus character we see and she is currently passing, and we barely spend any time in the city as it stands anyway.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Blake specifically told Sun the White Fang torched stores that refuse to serve Faunus, so we have heard about it, as for not seeing it, as I've said before, Blake is the only consistent Faunus character we see and she is currently passing, and we barely spend any time in the city as it stands anyway.

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Blake comes from Menagerie, and the White Fang apparently operates on no less than three different continents besides that one. She could have been talking about stores in Mistral.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't racist, service-denying stores in Vale. We just have no evidence that Blake has seen any of them, and WE certainly didn't see them.

 

[Zam]

Blake comes from Menagerie, and the White Fang apparently operates on no less than three different continents besides that one. She could have been talking about stores in Mistral.

Again, I'm not saying there aren't racist, service-denying stores in Vale. We just have no evidence that Blake has seen any of them, and WE certainly didn't see them.

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Given she didn't specify I assume it extends across most of the kingdoms as opposed to being localised to just one, as I feel she'd have stated a kingdom specifically if such matter weren't in the norm.

Again though, 'WE' barely spent any time in Vale, and when we did it was generally with a Fuanus who was passing as human, so its not surprising we wouldn't see them. Plus how often did the cast go shopping?

 

[Tython82]

...It doesn't. It never DID say if anyone won the war, just that everyone eventually became desperate for compromise.

Still, someone clearly lost more than others, as evidenced by the fact that SOMEONE had to give up on oppressing self-expression and destroying art, and someone had to give up an entire continent.

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How do we know they gave up an entire continen(they may have given up a portion of it but the whole thing?) and how do we know that there was a compromise to end the war(seriously was that in Ozpins speach and I missed it or was it the recent WoR)? All we know is a great war fought for many reasons outside of individuality and art/opression as Ozpin pointed out and someone lost that is all, where did he mention that a compromise was reach etc.