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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • ...One perfectly viable way to retcon the scene while leaving it in existence would be to simply say that it was Raven's dream, not Yang's. She rescued her daughter, and then was quite naturally having feelings about what it would be like to actually talk to her. (Or, extending the theme, it was Yang's dream--a literal dream, not magic communication, just Yang dreaming about what it would be like to talk to her mom now that she's had a glimpse of her again.)
     
    Given Raven apparently knows about Yang's arm I can't shake the image of her assigning some minion to just watch Yang, leading to a really bored bandit sitting in a room with cameras feeling super sleazy because "Hey I'm a thief, not a stalkery perv." but still having to write up psychological profiles Raven won't read and just hating their job.
     
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    TheLordofAwesome said:
    If the open letter from Shane Newville is to be believed (honestly, anything in that open letter should be taken with a grain of serious salt), that was precisely the case. Apparently it was suppose to be an actual scene in an episode rather than being just a stinger at the end of a season. Miles and Kerry wanted to cut the scene entirely, but Monty wanted it it. So it was made a stinger.

    Assuming the season plays out exactly the same, but with the Raven dream sequence added in somewhere... I can see why Miles and Kerry would want it cut entirely, as it just doesn't seem to fit. Would have been better to save the reveal that Raven was Yang's mom in the third volume.

    Of course, that open letter isn't exactly a reliable source of information.
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    Eh, I believe that what Shane said about what Monty originally wanted was accurate. Sure, I can see why Miles and Kerry didn't go with that, and a lot of things cut out could be to budgetary or time concerns, but I don't think Shane was lying about those being Monty's ideas.

    No, I don't think Shane was right to rail against everything being against "Monty's Vision" and I can see Monty willing to go with the changes, but I think Shane was telling the truth about what was originally planned.

    The reason Monty wanted to keep that one scene in? If he were still alive, I can see him wanting to expand on that in Volume 3 because they ran out of time in v2. Sadly M&K decided to pretend it didn't happen instead of expanding on it. Would have been better than the travesty that was JNPR vs BRNZ. God, that shit was so terrible. It wasn't even funny.

    DezoPenguin said:
    ...One perfectly viable way to retcon the scene while leaving it in existence would be to simply say that it was Raven's dream, not Yang's. She rescued her daughter, and then was quite naturally having feelings about what it would be like to actually talk to her. (Or, extending the theme, it was Yang's dream--a literal dream, not magic communication, just Yang dreaming about what it would be like to talk to her mom now that she's had a glimpse of her again.)
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    Either of those would be acceptable. Kind of disappointing, but possible.

    Zam said:
    Given Raven apparently knows about Yang's arm I can't shake the image of her assigning some minion to just watch Yang, leading to a really bored bandit sitting in a room with cameras feeling super sleazy because "Hey I'm a thief, not a stalkery perv." but still having opt write up psychological profiles Raven won't read and just hating their job.
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    Oh, that sounds hilarious. Mind if I steal it?
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Eh, I believe that what Shane said about what Monty originally wanted was accurate. Sure, I can see why Miles and Kerry didn't go with that, and a lot of things cut out could be to budgetary or time concerns, but I don't think Shane was lying about those being Monty's ideas.

    No, I don't think Shane was right to rail against everything being against "Monty's Vision" and I can see Monty willing to go with the changes, but I think Shane was telling the truth about what was originally planned.

    The reason Monty wanted to keep that one scene in? If he were still alive, I can see him wanting to expand on that in Volume 3 because they ran out of time in v2. Sadly M&K decided to pretend it didn't happen instead of expanding on it. Would have been better than the travesty that was JNPR vs BRNZ. God, that shit was so terrible. It wasn't even funny.
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    I'm sure there is some truth to some of his claims, but there is a fine line between truth and delusion, and that open letter makes it very clear he might be delusional. I can't blame him, from what I gathered from the open letter he has a greatly admiration for Monty and his death deeply affected him, and he tried desperately to emulate his late mentor to the point where his life started to fall apart because of it.

    But honestly, having that scene cut entirely would have been okay in my book. It's not like it really adds anything, and you can still do the reveal that Raven was Yang's mom in a less clumsy manner.
     
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    The issue is that Monty's storytelling didn't WORK.

    That's just it, plain and simple, M&K saw his script and justifiably nods "We can't do this".

    BUT, I believe M&K are faithful enough to keep all the core concept from Monty's stories, and present it to the audience in much more streamlined manner to fit the current RWBY narrative.
     
    ZeroXSEED said:
    The issue is that Monty's storytelling didn't WORK.
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    Right.

    There was absolutely no story in Haloid or Dead Fantasy (aside from small, silent character interactions in the later), and that was fine because no one watched it for the story.

    But when Dead Fantasy started trying to have a story, I got pissed off, because that story didn't make any fucking sense. (Hitomi had been trying to beat Tifa and her friends senseless for two hours, so why was she suddenly pissed about her ally doing it? When Helena sent Kasumi's clones to fight Yuna, why did Kasumi suddenly start defending Yuna from the clones?)

    There's also how Monty himself admitted that the original Red Trailer was really more of a weapons demonstration than an insight into Ruby as a person. Not that she did anything that was out of character for the Ruby Rose we've come to know, but without context it gave everyone a very inaccurate view of who she was.

    The White Trailer was better about this, the Black Trailer was better yet, and the Yellow Trailer was the absolute best at showing us who Yang Xiao Long was.
     
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    Sunder the Gold said:
    Yellow Trailer was the absolute best at showing us who Yang Xiao Long was.
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    Yellow Trailer always felt off to me a bit in terms of story telling since we never learn who Yang was looking for and why since from what I can recall the person in question was either a run away or kidnapped and after the fight in Juniors the missing person plot is dropped entirely. Even the Manga which expands on elements that were in the Yellow trailer pretty much forgets this.
     
    Tython82 said:
    Yellow Trailer always felt off to me a bit in terms of story telling since we never learn who Yang was looking for and why since from what I can recall the person in question was either a run away or kidnapped and after the fight in Juniors the missing person plot is dropped entirely. Even the Manga which expands on elements that were in the Yellow trailer pretty much forgets this.
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    But you understand who Yang is far more than the other three characters.
     
    Tython82 said:
    Yellow Trailer always felt off to me a bit in terms of story telling since we never learn who Yang was looking for and why since from what I can recall the person in question was either a run away or kidnapped and after the fight in Juniors the missing person plot is dropped entirely. Even the Manga which expands on elements that were in the Yellow trailer pretty much forgets this.
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    I'm pretty sure she was looking for info on Raven.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    Right.

    There was absolutely no story in Haloid or Dead Fantasy (aside from small, silent character interactions in the later), and that was fine because no one watched it for the story.

    But when Dead Fantasy started trying to have a story, I got pissed off, because that story didn't make any fucking sense. (Hitomi had been trying to beat Tifa and her friends senseless for two hours, so why was she suddenly pissed about her ally doing it? When Helena sent Kasumi's clones to fight Yuna, why did Kasumi suddenly start defending Yuna from the clones?)

    There's also how Monty himself admitted that the original Red Trailer was really more of a weapons demonstration than an insight into Ruby as a person. Not that she did anything that was out of character for the Ruby Rose we've come to know, but without context it gave everyone a very inaccurate view of who she was.

    The White Trailer was better about this, the Black Trailer was better yet, and the Yellow Trailer was the absolute best at showing us who Yang Xiao Long was.
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    Bit suprised so critical, figured this was your PB and Jam.

    Yep basically things change alot from idea to actual on screen work even from an original author. And while Monty had a flair for aesthetic sense in the terms of narrative not so much. Which is why Rwby being fairytale plus action was fine. Its just with deeper focus comes demand for.. well stronger characters (ala superheroes) if only on a solid reoccuring struggle but this is headed towards a narrative

    Yes as an excuse for a buncha cool shit. But it needs to be cool shit that makes sense, enough, as a story. That can happen but only by at the least tempering Monty's raw ideas. I wouldn't be surprise if we end up wildly off the mark.

    For example. I think part of what bothered me about the two professors' poor empathizing with Yang last episode is they were made for a specific style and setting. This can happen in high end productions (Korra's secondary cast suffered strongly from this in the second season and overall was a distinct weakness) Peter is supposed to be a pompous buffoon. Its his one trait. ideally with more episodes this will naturally expand ala a characteron the simpsons. BUT he's not thrust miles away from where designed even if, in universe, he should be well more accustomed and experienced with dealing with recovering hunters and huntresses or students who have sufferred trauma or injury. Its just one of the things you go through as longterm mentor/educator.

    Now most of the actual focus characters have avoided this pitfall. But these guys aren't likely as their character is more a collection of quirks and functions and they are unlikely to get the meatier stuff to expand them.

    And I realize that sounds a little harsh but let's compare to Weiss who started off as painfully archetypical and attempted to imitate a very anime character archetype. but over the first season the nuances of performance and storytelling fleshed her out. You can put her in that category but she really blossoms out of it. And as far as S3 and 4 they are at the least putting a certain spin and chalenge to the character type that an otherwise reliable mediocre anime series would not or at least not in a way this approachable and appealling to me and the intended audience which skews older and English first.

    Its a flaw or weakness of the show that its strengths overcomes but only where it puts in the work and its still easy, and painful, to see it show up in points. Oh well beats the janky/clunky animation and so on.
     
    Darmani said:
    Bit suprised so critical, figured this was your PB and Jam.
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    Why wouldn't I be critical?

    Haloid and Dead Fantasy were extremely enjoyable works, but they weren't perfect. Some imperfections were acceptable limitations of the "genre" (women fighting awesomely without worrying about reasons), and other imperfections had nothing to do with the genre.

    I'm going to be critical when a work changes genres (suddenly: plot!), or at least when it handles the transition BADLY; especially when it does it badly.

    And yeah, Monty recognized his limitations as a creator. RWBY was his brainchild, but after that it was always a team effort. George Lucas was on a tighter leash for the first Star Wars movies than he was for the prequel trilogy.


    Peter is more than pompous buffon. He showed Weiss how sharp and observant he is, as well as how he could alternate between gentle and hard as he taught her wisdom.

    What you don't seem to acknowledge is that Peter and Barty's questions got Yang to start talking about her problems. These two professors of hers got her to open up in a way that her father alone hasn't been able to manage for HALF A YEAR.

    (Granted, Yang needed time to get this far.)
     
    Random832 said:
    That is most people's interpretation. I don't think it's technically ever been made explicit though, and the photo she shows is not of Raven (which most people attribute to Raven's character design not existing yet and it being a placeholder).
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    That's definitely my take, Yang's not referenced as having searched for anyone else,but did explain to Blake that she was still looking for her mother, so if she were seeking anyone else I feel it'd have come up by now.
     
    From sneak peek Blake's house is large wow. I was expecting apartment (even though we have her house's interior shot before and it's hinted to be large), not a nice beach-side property. Though maybe that's because her father is ridiculously large. Does she rebel because of teenage rebellion aside from setting injustice against Faunus straight? :p I also like how expressive Sun's and her Faunus traits are. For shame EW making a mistake of Jaune with Mr. Abs (hey it's clearer now).
     
    Regency said:
    From sneak peek Blake's house is large wow. I was expecting apartment (even though we have her house's interior shot before and it's hinted to be large), not a nice beach-side property. Though maybe that's because her father is ridiculously large. Does she rebel because of teenage rebellion aside from setting injustice against Faunus straight? :p I also like how expressive Sun's and her Faunus traits are. For shame EW making a mistake of Jaune with Mr. Abs (hey it's clearer now).
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    Weiss : You mean to say you're faunus rich?!

    Blake : Why are you qualifying that with faunus? :wtf:

    Because everyone is a pauper next to the Schnee's but I could see Weiss innocently not realizing that there are Faunus who live in something akin to affluence.
     
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    [Discussion] Volume 4, Chapter 5: Menagerie
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    • RWBY Episode 5:
    Menagerie looks nice, cool to see so many Faunus and the texturing looks great, Sun is shocked, Blake seems happy to be back and I think I saw a Faunus with armadillo plating, neat!

    While it doesn't look 'crazy cramped' the general implication is that it is and that Menagerie is two thirds desert and trying to cram a whole species on there was not a great idea, another point on the Menagerie was a total dick move list. Also the wild life is apparently really dangerous and Sun never paid attention in history class,but picks it up quick, also its called an island, though evidently still a big one.

    Kuo Koana, is maybe how its said? Also Sun does not get why people 'wouldn't' want to be shoved onto an island with one third nice bit two thirds death desert after being promised equal rights, Vacuo must be super lax, poor Blake is frustrated trying to explain.

    OK Sun's reaction to Blake's how was hilarious & the house is freaking huge, also maybe only one town exists?

    Oh gosh, smiley Blake, happy mother, hugs and feels! Kali I think her name is, Blake's dad is still huge.

    They know what happened in Vale & seemingly that Blake was there, but she also said she hadn't seen her parents in awhile so maybe they saw the tournament?

    Love the expressions.

    Sun is now a stray puppy who follows people home XD

    More ship teasing, also Kali, he "followed" her for six months without her knowing, just saying.

    Gira is Blake's dad's name maybe?

    Hey its the intro dudes!

    Pretty respectful to Blake, they represent the White Fang.

    High leader Khan and apparently the WF want to at least imply that they don't approve, and maybe don't given how Adam came to follow Cinder, but there is also the meeting incoming.

    Blake's dad is chieftain, stepped down as the leader of the WF, also the WF has a council.

    Sister "Elya" would be elated if Blake came back to the WF? Intriguing,also those guys are creepy.

    Welp Tyrien found the nice waitress & is seemingly being set up for a potential mid season fight in episode six.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • * Sun is used to being faunus not being a big deal where he's from, but he so used to faunus mixing in with humans, and probably being outnumbered by them. I might feel just as weird if I was suddenly in a crowd of NOTHING but red-heads.

    * Sun is ALSO used to more elbow room. Vacuo is an expansive place, with a thin and scattered populace.

    * Confirmation that while both have deserts, Vacuo's is more American west while Menagerie's is more Australian outback. Grimm are dangerous, but wild animals don't stop existing or fighting for space.

    * I was on the fence about Blake's home until we saw that it's the ONLY home of its size within the village.

    * Sun makes an excellent audience surrogate for this segment. It goes without saying that he's no where near as bad as Jaune was in Volume 1, especially since Sun is a realistic character who gives us insights into Vacuo and how it compares to Menagerie.

    * Still... "Why is he here again?" Ha!

    * "He just kind of... followed me home." *slyly* "I see." "Mom!"

    * Blake's mother is Collie... Cholic? Melancholic? Ah, "Kali"

    * Blake's father is Ghira... as in, BAGHIRA. Jun~gle Book~!

    * Ghira was the prior leader of the White Fang, and is currently the mayor of Menagerie. Man, the Monochrome ship just got new fuel with these "political marriage" possibilities.

    * The Belladonna family is in trouble.

    * Tyrian is still trying too hard.


    Zam said:
    he "followed" her for six months without her knowing, just saying.
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    And Yang was too stupid to realize something was weird when Ruby boarded the ferry going to Beacon? Ruby waited until they were half way to Beacon before telling Yang that she would be attending hunter college with her?

    Weiss and Blake really had the same argument all the way from the docks back to their dorm-room with a big-ass pause between one comment and the response?


    Understand that storytelling is artificial, and scene transitions sometimes break logical sense for the sake of expediency or drama.

    Sun didn't reveal himself until a dramatic moment because the writers thought it was cool, not because they were presenting him as a creep.
     
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    Sunder the Gold said:
    And Yang was too stupid to realize something was weird when Ruby boarded the ferry going to Beacon? Ruby waited until they were half way to Beacon before telling Yang that she would be attending hunter college with her?

    Weiss and Blake really had the same argument all the way from the docks back to their dorm-room with a big-ass pause between one comment and the response?


    Understand that storytelling is artificial, and scene transitions sometimes break logical sense for the sake of expediency or drama.

    Sun didn't reveal himself until a dramatic moment because the writers thought it was cool, not because they were presenting him as a creep.
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    I'm not obligated to love everything Sun does if it creeps me out, nor do I agree with your counters... Actually I'm not sure I understand them either, but its late and I have no interest in a go nowhere debate, you like Sun I don't we will not see eye to eye on any critique of him or his handling as a character.
     
    Episode 5 Reactions:

    So fantasy Australia indeed. Also, dammit Sun, why do you keep becoming better and better even though stalking Blake was still a terrible idea.

    Though, the Menagerie doesn't seem cramped compared to downtown in some of the cities. I'm imagining it's either due to animation limitation or how narrow the streets are since he didn't have any problems before... Or maybe Vale just isn't very high density despite the size of its buildings.

    Blake's parents are great. The new facial expressions and body language really sell the scene.

    Also, Blake's a princess... sort of... wat. This makes for very interesting Monochrome AU ideas that are now spinning around.

    The White Fang, at least the non militant part, being seeming to be some form of religious order sort of makes sense too.

    Or maybe they're militant anyway... great... I would've liked it if there were actual schisms in the WF with these two actually being honest and truthful because it would have made for an interesting plot.

    That poor waitress. Ruby's gonna get attacked and then probably saved via Qrow interrupt.
     
    Zam said:
    I'm not obligated to love everything Sun does if it creeps me out
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    Who asked you to?

    Darmani was surprised that I was critical of the Dead Fantasy videos, and I maintained it was natural. Do you think I'm demanding that you not criticize Rooster Teeth?

    I'm not asking you to refrain from complaining about the EXECUTION. If I demand anything, it's that you recognize what their INTENT was.


    Sun the character is not meant to be interpreted as a creep, so it's not fair to expect that Blake's mother treat him that way.

    Ruby and Yang didn't treat Blake and Weiss as weirdos for picking up an argument in the dorm-room exactly as if the intervening space and time since the docks hadn't happened.
     
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