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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Sunder the Gold said:
    I don't know their history with RVB, but it seems possible that Rooster Teeth are better at portraying friendships than romances.

    Thus, if there actually is better chemistry between Blake and Yang, that might be an accident of better writing rather than a sign they're going to become a canon couple.
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    That makes me wonder, why does romance seem so much harder to write and portray than friendships?
    It might be because a romantic relationship is a very personal thing to individuals and so it would seem difficult to tell the story of one that appeals to thousands of different, unique people.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    Thus, if there actually is better chemistry between Blake and Yang, that might be an accident of better writing rather than a sign they're going to become a canon couple.
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    Possibly, definitely possible, though at the same time there's some really fascinating analyse of the screen writing and direction that, if accurate, would imply RT are really amazing at writing romance and just taking their time.

    anailater said:
    Man do you guys ever consider you might be overthinking literally everything about the show to an insane degree?
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    That's pretty much what fandoms do as I understand it.
    Prince Eggplant said:
    That makes me wonder, why does romance seem so much harder to write and portray than friendships?
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    I'm no expert but in my mind there probably shouldn't be a 'huge' difference in most regards, and its because of certain over utilised tropes and concepts that people make it more complicated than it needs to be, Then again I'm one of those people who can't comprehend instantaneous attraction and tends to feel the best ships are done with friends and come from friendship over starting out romantically.
     
    I personally don't care if Blake ends up with Yang, or Sun, or both, or no one. It all means the same thing to me.

    The only complaint I have about Sun meeting Blake's parents is that the rest of Team RWBY isn't there to meet Blake's family, too. And I want to see Taiyang (and maybe Qrow) meeting with Ghira and Kali.

    I want to see a lot of character interactions that we may never get to see. Certainly, we're never going to see Pyrrha interact with anyone new ever again.

    Have you listened to her voice lines in Grimm Eclipse? Someone posted a bunch of them on Tumblr. It was heart-breaking.
     
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    I really like the line where Pyrrha sounds super-excited about doing puzzles. One of the strong things about RWBY's writing is that Miles and Kerry understand that a character feels much more real when you add in little details about them like that. Stuff like that, or Blake and Weiss preferring tea and coffee respectively, etc. Because it creates this little moment where you go, "Yeah, that sounds like this character."

    Because of course Pyrrha likes puzzles: Pyrrha embodies the Greek ideal of arete, and is all about constantly seeking to improve herself and live up to her potential. So of course she'd like puzzles, which are a way to have fun and train your brain.
     
    Zam said:
    We literally had a video two weeks ago that covered the Faunus have been actively murdered and enslaved just for existing for all of recorded history. And has been noted several times we barely see any Faunus who aren't passing.

    There isn't. but I find the idea of "The discriminated against minority are actually bad" to be both unpleasant as a concept and also to not match up with what we've actually seen.
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    I think you need to step back and re-think about what I actually am arguing about. I'm not saying that Faunus are entirely bad or anything like that. I am criticizing the depiction and conveyance of the story and world element of the Faunus discrimination through a storytelling perspective. Which, in my opinion, is adequate as I have to say that I think that the creators are aiming towards making them the victim of an unjust society through little to no fault of their own.

    I am not entirely sure of that direction any longer simply because of the execution of the plot points, which is a good thing if they are aiming for a "Humans used to be the bad ones, but now both sides are equally at fault," direction which I think is a more nuanced approach although I would also need to note that it is also much more harder to pull-off and, if it is the case of their new direction, then I must caution them against doing it because I don't think they have adequate storytelling skills and resources to pull it off correctly and satisfyingly.

    It's a "Just in case I'm wrong about what I think is the intention of the creator" corollary I added to my criticism of how the "Faunus are discriminated through little fault of their own" and overall Faunus Discrimination narrative is executed which, again, I don't think has been executed well and convincingly enough. There's no denying that Faunus Discrimination exists, but the question is how severe was it and how much of it was the fault of the humans as a whole in an objective, story element sense. That's what I am arguing and criticizing about.

    We do have a video covering the Faunus discrimination two weeks ago. Okay. Good. That's a good direction. However, I still do not think it is enough. What it describe is the situation of the past, for the most part. There are some descriptions of the present era examples of discrimination, but I still don't think it was good or adequate enough. It literally only says "the treatment of Faunus varies from place to place." It doesn't actually say what those treatments are. It also says that Menagerie is a "slap in the face by nations of sore losers" which is probably true, but it's also said that the world had to make compromises after the Great War.

    The nature of compromises meant that none of the parties are actually satisfied but they just had to make due, and it is unquestionably an opportunity for them to "do as they please" in the new continent. We were never told or shown about the specific problems with the continent, the agreements, or human actions after that that might have genuinely prevented them to thrive as a nation (aside for a very ambiguous line by Blake, outside of that video, about wild lives being harsher in Menagerie deserts which I think is an inadequate explanation on its own but is another matter entirely).

    And if you dislike or disagree with the idea of "the discriminated minority is bad" then that is fine. I, however, think that it is one valid direction to take the story towards and find it potentially interesting. Assuming it is done correctly, which again, I have doubts upon. But the important thing is that that sentence basically sums up the lens by which I make my comments and views: I see and speak through a subjective storytelling perspective, rather than an in-universe or even any actual moral lenses. Everything I argue does not necessary reflects my personal beliefs, but more reflects how I see the story and story elements as. I think you need to remember that because the line of the arguments have been starting to lean more and more towards what I seem to personally belief rather than my views and analysis on the story and its executions.

    In any case, I think that I am done arguing about this. Clearly, we are not going to see eye to eye, so let's just agree to disagree. It's not like either of us had to be wrong for our opinions to be valid anyway, since this is a very subjective matter. But I will say that I am getting very, very uncomfortable with how much personal the line and tone of your arguments has been getting. This was never about my personal beliefs. Personal beliefs that become the lens through which how I view things and draw my conclusions, yes, but not the beliefs itself.
    anailater said:
    Man do you guys ever consider you might be overthinking literally everything about the show to an insane degree?
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    Not really, no. We are simply stating our views and opinions, giving reasoning and rhetorics (because let's be honest, if often it becomes less about supporting the argument and more about winning the argument and winning support) for it like any responsible person would. It often blows out of proportion when disagreements occur - which will occur when there are a diverse set of people in the group - and we give even more explanation, reasoning, and rhetorics to support our position - which is also something that we would naturally do.

    Aside from that, engaging in analysis and commentaries are just what fans do. And considering that this site, and the sister sites, has people that are aware of the narrative arts and rules, it would often get deep because we're just more aware and has more relevant knowledge than others. We simply have a lot of smart people so we bring up a lot of points to support our idiocy, basically.

    But no, I don't think we're over-thinking it, just that we're being saner and more responsible than the rabid fans as we actually explain why we have certain opinions, views, and positions. Mostly. Though, if we're really "over-thinking" it, that only speak about how much we are passionate, like, and interested in this show. And understandable considering that we've been in this whole "draw conclusions based on little amount of information, some of which are hidden in obscure interviews and podcasts" that leaves us with no choice for four years as of now.
     
    Feng Lengshun said:
    In any case, I think that I am done arguing about this. Clearly, we are not going to see eye to eye, so let's just agree to disagree. It's not like either of us had to be wrong for our opinions to be valid anyway, since this is a very subjective matter.
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    If you want to end an argument in good faith my understanding is that a massive counter post followed by something like this is not the way to do it. Apologies if I have made you uncomfortable at all regardless.
     
    Zam said:
    If you want to end an argument in good faith my understanding is that a massive counter post followed by something like this is not the way to do it. Apologies if I have made you uncomfortable at all regardless.
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    Because, quite honestly, I don't care about being in good faith anymore, I just want to get my arguments out, stop the argument, and clear my head out. It's getting... frustrating to me. It's starting to feel like you're not willing to consider my point of view when I, on the other hand, actually went along with your views and arguments when I didn't have to.

    But I still don't think everything that's been talked about is executed nicely, I think that it could use a lot of work. Which isn't really anything new in regards to RWBY, but I think it should be stated nonetheless. Other than that, I was just explaining about my biases and where certain opinions came from, which I don't think is important at all other than to account for other fans with possibly similar views. It gets annoying when that became the subject of the argument instead.

    On another topic, I found this on SB: On RWBY [Essays] (AO3 mirror). Looks interesting, though what is this Yangalysis? I've heard it named several times but have never read/see the actual thing, I'm afraid.
     
    Feng Lengshun said:
    Because, quite honestly, I don't care about being in good faith anymore, I just want to get my arguments out, stop the argument, and clear my head out. It's getting... frustrating to me. It's starting to feel like you're not willing to consider my point of view when I, on the other hand, actually went along with your views and arguments when I didn't have to.

    But I still don't think everything that's been talked about is executed nicely, I think that it could use a lot of work. Which isn't really anything new in regards to RWBY, but I think it should be stated nonetheless. Other than that, I was just explaining about my biases and where certain opinions came from, which I don't think is important at all other than to account for other fans with possibly similar views. It gets annoying when that became the subject of the argument instead.

    On another topic, I found this on SB: On RWBY [Essays] (AO3 mirror). Looks interesting, though what is this Yangalysis? I've heard it named several times but have never read/see the actual thing, I'm afraid.
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    If it helps at all I never really got the feeling you considered my opinion either, and I'm not trying to be rude by saying that, from the start it felt like we were on opposite sides and nothing changed.

    If you bring up a personal philosophy in a debate and use it to frame part of the discussion that becoming part of the discussion is kind of a given, apologies if you found it upsetting though.

    Ooh I love Yangalysis, don't agree with quite everything they have to say but that is a tag used by a blogger named sir-adamus, they primarily focus on Yang centric RWBY analyse though there's plenty of other stuff. Its quite well thought out and passionate in some cases, they dip into thematic and narrative constructs as well which can be pretty intriguing. No idea about the SB posts though never read them.
     
    The title and image for episode 6 have been posted to the site.

    The title is "tipping point" and the image is Tyrian. Do we have another episode 6 dark turn in store?
     
    Zam said:
    No one is suggesting a business is owed money simply by virtue of existence, however the monopolisation of business, especially one as shady as the SDC is bad for everyone save the SDC; its not about propping up things in favour of nostalgia, I loathe the concept, but implicitly just letting big corporations too large to fail easily and that utilise shady tactics to roll over other businesses or people, big or small, is inherently bad as far as I'm concerned.
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    Zam said:
    Given its been covered that the SDC use shady business tactics and partners any assumption that they won anything fairly, to me is inherently suspect, and one massive company driving much smaller one's out of business can hardly be called "fair and square" in terms of a competition, for comparisons sake, there's a reason we have weight classes in boxing, and monopolies are bad for everyone. Plus if, lets say a bank had given you a loan and then decided they wanted their money back and took your house, wouldn't you be a little upset regardless of the actions actual legality, especially if it really negatively impacted yourself or people you cared about?
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    To reiterate my previous post, hopefully a little clearer this time:
    • We can't assume everything the SDC touches is evil. Blake says the SDC has "controversial labor forces and questionable business partners" and Weiss worries about the "moral gray area" her father has taken the company into, plus other hints, but that doesn't let us assume guilt in every case.
    • Competition may be fair and yet not "fair", in that struggle doesn't always pay off. The local grocer may work twice as hard, yet still lose customers to the new Whole Foods or Trader Joe's that opened in town. Whether the SDC is a fair competitor or a monopoly is another issue: the point is that a perfectly well-behaved company would find it hard to avoid putting anyone out of business. If that's "unfair", then our notion of "fairness" is overburdened.
    • From the hints that have been given we as readers may expect to hear more about wrongdoing at the SDC, but if we're taking this seriously then nothing Flynt or other characters have said so far . That's not to say that Flynt's beef with the SDC is unfounded: he has plenty of good reasons to resent them. Just that we can't assume it was criminal (and Flynt doesn't make that accusation).
    Prince Eggplant said:
    I'm surprised and almost confused that there's basically a Black Sun song, and that the lyrics are anything but subtle.
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    At least officially, Not Fall in Love with You is not based on any particular pairing. The slideshows RT4C does for their YouTube videos and the connections they make (e.g. Blake and Sun for this song or Cinder for Sacrifice) are merely speculation, as RT4C is not authorized by Rooster Teeth, though they've tacitly turned a blind eye to uploads. Of course, many people have drawn the connection anyway, so RT4C is not alone.

    thesevenwielder said:
    No shit. Her VA was literally told to make Pyrrha as lovable and waifu bait-y as possible to make her death all that more painful for the audience.

    Joke's on them, I never got that invested in her plight.
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    ... congrats, I guess?
     
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    [Discussion] Volume 4, Chapter 6: Tipping Point
  • Threadmarks
    • RWBY Episode 6:
    16 or so minutes and the opening theme, OK, lets see what happens.

    Nora and she is peppy, Ruby expresses sadness over Haven's distance she thought it would take a few weeks, interesting! Don't just drop the map Jaune!

    Hey I think this is the ruined town from the intro!

    Town is called Oniyuri, Anima's Mountain Glenn according to perfect student Ren.

    Ren's parents were involved! Yes no one comfort the clearly upset Ren.

    OK wow Weiss is performing and it sounds amazing!

    Was not born guilty of your crimes... Wow, OK call out song?

    Whitley looks smug as ever, the crowd applause though so that's a relief, small mercies & the moment they are't looking she's miserable again :(

    Smug laughing rich people, Papa Schnee insisting he gives Faunus the same wage as the rest of their mining staff (Course if that were the case no one would make the argument in the first place, so chances are he gives them crappier gear or unsafe mines ETC but still pays the same) Weiss looking unhappy. Gods every scene with him just makes me so uncomfortable and angry!!

    OK who is this guy?

    Well Henry has some self awareness at least.

    I take it back, he has no awareness, dude do you even listen to tone?

    Wow, that other dude was freaking out on the drink server WTF man?

    And now someone is bad mouthing Vale for thinking it can get by without "proper" kingdom defences... Dumb people.

    How did Weiss get thrown down from pulling away?

    Holy shit Weiss lost control of a summoned Boartusk holy shit!

    Papa Schnee is pissed... Oh dear...

    Ren apparently has incredible senses, neat.

    Ok Tyrien has arrived, I like the fight scenes so far, good choreography and a decent pace, he also seems to know his behaviour weirds people out based on his actions with Jaune, could all still be moving a bit faster and mesh more smoothly. Also he be freaking strong, we saw Ruby's aura flaring from a blocked attacked, though it wasn't broken, still cool effect.

    And he's taken an interest in Jaune (sigh) Also liking the casual building destruction, that's fun.

    Nora is cool, Tyrien is really loving his disturbing monologues and tone.

    Nora's "its time to kill" smile gives me strength.

    Holy shit he has a scorpion tail that just freaking burst out!

    White Fang and Roman "Plastic soldiers and pawns!" OK I am loving how Tyrien talks now,

    More or less everyone guessed it but Qrow can turn into a Qrow.

    Qrow, the save is nice and all, but you're trying way too hard to be cool XD

    Stop just standing there Tyrien!

    Oh Tyrien's tail is his belt, that's neat.

    Seems like while he can stomp RNJR, and wow did he stomp them, Qrow's probably at a high pay grade than Tyrien himself if he can stop the attack that easily.

    And now we have a cliffhanger for three weeks... I can't wait for that long!
     
  • Threadmarks
    • mistakenot said:
    To reiterate my previous post, hopefully a little clearer this time:
    • We can't assume everything the SDC touches is evil. Blake says the SDC has "controversial labor forces and questionable business partners" and Weiss worries about the "moral gray area" her father has taken the company into, plus other hints, but that doesn't let us assume guilt in every case.
    • Competition may be fair and yet not "fair", in that struggle doesn't always pay off. The local grocer may work twice as hard, yet still lose customers to the new Whole Foods or Trader Joe's that opened in town. Whether the SDC is a fair competitor or a monopoly is another issue: the point is that a perfectly well-behaved company would find it hard to avoid putting anyone out of business. If that's "unfair", then our notion of "fairness" is overburdened.
    • From the hints that have been given we as readers may expect to hear more about wrongdoing at the SDC, but if we're taking this seriously then nothing Flynt or other characters have said so far . That's not to say that Flynt's beef with the SDC is unfounded: he has plenty of good reasons to resent them. Just that we can't assume it was criminal (and Flynt doesn't make that accusation).
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    Apologies for the double post, and if I come across as short, sorry kinda in a hurry.

    I don't strictly recall saying it had to be criminal, just that given what we know it probably could have been and that Flynt has an understandable beef with them regardless and that I dislike the notion of "Its the weaker persons fault for not being able to win a fight they probably didn't start."
     
    Zam said:
    Smug laughing rich people, Papa Schnee insisting he gives Faunus the same wage as the rest of their mining staff (Course if that were the case no one would make the argument in the first place, so chances are he gives them crappier gear or unsafe mines ETC but still pays the same) Weiss looking unhappy. Gods every scene with him just makes me so uncomfortable and angry!!
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    Could also be case of lack of opportunity for advancement. Or hiring desperate Faunus workers for jobs most humans don't want, which gets into the issue of whether voluntary work may be exploitative, like sweatshops in the real world.

    Zam said:
    Apologies for the double post, and if I come across as short, sorry kinda in a hurry.
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    Understandable. Now that you've quoted it, I notice some omissions in my own post above. :oops:

    I don't strictly recall saying it had to be criminal, just that given what we know it probably could have been
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    I certainly agree it's possible, as I said. Not going to argue whether it's probable or not.

    and that Flynt has an understandable beef with them regardless
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    I definitely agree there.

    and that I dislike the notion of "Its the weaker persons fault for not being able to win a fight they probably didn't start."
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    Well, sure, but I think we're in danger of anthropomorphizing business competition. Despite what the Supreme Court says, it's not murder to kill a company. /jk
     
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    mistakenot said:
    Could also be case of lack of opportunity for advancement. Or hiring desperate Faunus workers for jobs most humans don't want, which gets into the issue of whether voluntary work may be exploitative, like sweatshops in the real world.
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    Yeah I could definitely see that.

    mistakenot said:
    Understandable. Now that you've quoted it, I notice some omissions in my own post above. :oops:

    I certainly agree it's possible, as I said. Not going to argue whether it's probable or not.

    I definitely agree there.

    Well, sure, but I think we're in danger of anthropomorphizing business competition. Despite what the Supreme Court says, it's not murder to kill a company. /jk
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    I think we're broadly speaking in agreement?
     
    I don't really have much to say that Zam hasn't already stated, but:

    Ren finally gets to be awesome. In the past seasons he always seemed like one of the weaker fighters, but here he was quite badass.

    Tyrian's eyes are usually yellow, but when he came to finish of Ruby, they turned purple (and I think they turned back to yellow after Qrow blocked his strike). I wonder what it means.
     
    That guy Mr Schnee was talking to had a rose pin above his pocket. Distant relative of Ruby, maybe?

    Also for a second when Qrow blocked the strike I thought it had gone through the blade and poisoned him.
     
    Qrow is animagus Crow confirmed! Confirmation by way of sibling Raven is animagus Raven when? Going by that logic, what's Yang's animal form?
     
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