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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • thesevenwielder said:
    No you have not. Since you refuse to scroll upwards I will be magnanimous and ask it again. What is the point of keeping the character Ozpin around if the writers force him to not provide any plot-relevant information?

    Now answer. And no changing the topic like you have been.
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    I did answer that question:

    VolantRedX said:
    I mean he was sort of needed to explain the Relics and he gives RWBY a level of legitimacy within the higher levels of power. No one trusts or likes Qrow because he's a drunken bastard, but Ozpin opens doors for them that otherwise wouldn't be open, but him being in Oscar's body means he's limited in how useful he can be in this capacity allowing for dramatic tension to be built up.
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    Beyond that he also acts as a trainer, he introduces Oscar who can act as an audience surrogate to learn things that the rest of the cast knows due to their training. Him being there means Qrow can be used to do other things beyond babysitting the other characters. The list goes on.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I did answer that question:

    Beyond that he also acts as a trainer, he introduces Oscar who can act as an audience surrogate to learn things that the rest of the cast knows due to their training. Him being there means Qrow can be used to do other things beyond babysitting the other characters. The list goes on.
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    Oh, that was actually meant to be an answer. Here's the thing. So far he hasn't opened any doors. Leo did not find out about Oz until they were in the middle of a fight. That's not an open door. As for training, he really only teaches Ruby hand-to-hand which she doesn't even use anyway, and again, if you removed him and replaced him with Qrow the plot wouldn't be affected much at all. As for "Qrow doing things beyond babysitting the characters"... what has Qrow done again that's of any importance? And you're assuming that RWYJNR need to be babysat at all. That's demeaning to their characters.

    Meanwhile, as for the audience surrogate to learn things that the rest of the cast knows due to their training... we already have Jaune. Love him or hate him, Jaune's entire purpose as a character was to be the audience surrogate. IMHO terribly done, but that's his role and it's redundant to have two. And even as an audience surrogate, Oscar fails almost as hard as Jaune because he is never actually taught anything of importance. Seriously, name one thing that the audience didn't know


    On to the RTX panel summary... well there's a lot to unpack, but I'll only focus on three parts. First, a week's delay between FIRST members and those with a regular RT membership. Frankly I don't care about this, but even if you don't have any problem with it you have to admit that it will fracture the fanbase even further. I expect a lot of discussion to vanish into the aether, as a week's delay is very stifling to any sort of discussion.

    Second, the "no spoiler questions." While I see some of the questions could be considered spoilers and thus could not be answered, others, like "why didn't they just close the vault with the Relic inside" strike me as the team admitting they don't have a proper explanation and instead hid it behind "that's a spoiler"

    Third, Lindsay (voice of Ruby) wants to see a flashback of Ruby and Summer hanging out. But Ruby was only three when Summer died; people don't remember things that early in their life. IIRC memory recall only really begins at 5 years old.


    VolantRedX said:
    No it's not. There's a reason mystery writers don't give you the solution mid way through the book. Character's only learn things when the story needs them to. That's the function of stories. If they just dumped all the info up front there'd be no dramatic weight to the story. For instance if Ozpin showed up and just outright said what Salem is, where she comes from and where he powers come from then there'd be no mystery for the story. You'd already know everything and it'd ruin any mystique the character had.
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    That about sums it up. If your explanation to "why haven't they done X" is "because drama!" then you've failed a writer.
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    Oh, that was actually meant to be an answer. Here's the thing. So far he hasn't opened any doors. Leo did not find out about Oz until they were in the middle of a fight. That's not an open door. As for training, he really only teaches Ruby hand-to-hand which she doesn't even use anyway, and again, if you removed him and replaced him with Qrow the plot wouldn't be affected much at all. As for "Qrow doing things beyond babysitting the characters"... what has Qrow done again that's of any importance? And you're assuming that RWYJNR need to be babysat at all. That's demeaning to their characters.
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    Yeah but going forward he's going to be pretty relevant. You think Ironwood is going to listen to Qrow and a few kids? Secondly the whole point of training Ruby in hand to hand is because she doesn't use it. It's a weakness of her's that he's trying to teach her to weed out. And yes RWYJNR needs a babysitter, they have a fucking god and her minions actively trying to kill them. Qrow can't be in two places at once and he's basically the only one that would stand a chance against them, as Tyrion proved.

    thesevenwielder said:
    Meanwhile, as for the audience surrogate to learn things that the rest of the cast knows due to their training... we already have Jaune. Love him or hate him, Jaune's entire purpose as a character was to be the audience surrogate. IMHO terribly done, but that's his role and it's redundant to have two. And even as an audience surrogate, Oscar fails almost as hard as Jaune because he is never actually taught anything of importance. Seriously, name one thing that the audience didn't know
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    How people unlock Semblences. Jaune at this point has at least a year of training at Beacon. It'd be illogical if he was still asking questions about the most basic elements of being a Hunter, while Oscar has zero training and thus would need even the most basic things explained to him.

    thesevenwielder said:
    That about sums it up. If your explanation to "why haven't they done X" is "because drama!" then you've failed a writer.
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    Why'd you post that 5 times? And the answer of "why haven't they done x" is always answered with "because it's a story" whether you contrive an answer or not. The explanation is irrelevant in the end since it will always boil down to "because that's what the plot needs". Having the mentor character just flatly spoil the plot is poor writing.
     
    Well, the stuff with Oz is likely: they need someone to explain all the magic stuff they haven't gotten around to.

    That said, I kinda get why not having Oz would be nice- it'd mean they weren't going to focus as much on ancient lore and destiny and stuff.

    I'd like that, because the most appealing stuff to me has always been the present and interpersonal dramas, which Oz isn't really necessary for.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    "Qrow doing things beyond babysitting the characters"... what has Qrow done again that's of any importance? And you're assuming that RWYJNR need to be babysat at all. That's demeaning to their characters.
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    In Volume 5, Qrow was looking for additional forces for the eventual retrieval of the Spring Maiden but instead stumbled upon the vast amount of dead hunters setting off all sorts of alarms in his head and then realized something was up with Leo.
     
    Leingod said:
    Well, as a headmaster he should know about Ozpin's reincarnations, so it wouldn't just be Qrow and a few kids. Not that it matters, as he didn't really listen to Ozpin back when the guy was in his own body.
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    That's my point without Oz the heroes would be hard pressed to get Ironwood to help them.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    That's my point without Oz the heroes would be hard pressed to get Ironwood to help them.
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    Well, if we're talking about the ways the plot could go in the hypothetical space where Oz as a character doesn't or no longer exists, then there are still an infinite number of ways the protagonists could still progress- they'd face different challenges, but there's no reason to suggest they wouldn't have different opportunities. They might not have even made the same choices that put them where they are in the plot.

    The question "Is Oz necessary" seems a bit off-base, to me. For the story they want to tell, yes. They wanted him to be this important- or they made writing choices earlier in production unintentionally that now makes him necessary.

    The question at the heart of this, I think- is the story (not the plot) better for Oz's inclusion? Strip away every line of exposition he's delivered and separate him from his role and his powers. Is his character still worth having around?

    That is of course subjective, but for me, I'd probably say no. I don't hate his character or anything, really I don't really have any strong feelings for him at all. His powers have story potential to go somewhere dark and interesting, but Oz the person is still seems so reserved that potential is really all there is to me.
     
    I mean strictly speaking the only character that can't be replaced is likely Ruby herself. You could write around pretty much every character in the show if you wanted.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I mean strictly speaking the only character that can't be replaced is likely Ruby herself. You could write around pretty much every character in the show if you wanted.
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    Exactly. So the only real question is- is Oz an interesting character?

    Tastes may vary, but I personally can only give him a 'meh' out of ten, discounting his plot relevance.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    That's my point without Oz the heroes would be hard pressed to get Ironwood to help them.
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    Awfully bold of you to assume Ironwood knows about Ozpin reincarnating.
    Tython82 said:
    In Volume 5, Qrow was looking for additional forces for the eventual retrieval of the Spring Maiden but instead stumbled upon the vast amount of dead hunters setting off all sorts of alarms in his head and then realized something was up with Leo.
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    Okay? Nothing about that requires Ozpin babysitting.
    VolantRedX said:
    Yeah but going forward he's going to be pretty relevant. You think Ironwood is going to listen to Qrow and a few kids?
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    I repeat: given Oz falling unconscious at the end of v5, it's highly unlikely that he will be able to prove his identity. Or give any exposition. It's a handy plot device, fixing the plot holes by making him literally incapable of giving exposition. But then, if he can't give it then what's his purpose? And we come back to my initial post. What is the use of an exposition machine that cannot exposit?

    Secondly the whole point of training Ruby in hand to hand is because she doesn't use it. It's a weakness of her's that he's trying to teach her to weed out. [/quote]
    And Lie Ren couldn't do that because...? All the way back during initiation we see he's a master at hand-to-hand.

    And yes RWYJNR needs a babysitter, they have a fucking god and her minions actively trying to kill them. Qrow can't be in two places at once and he's basically the only one that would stand a chance against them, as Tyrion proved.
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    Perhaps you should rewatch The Battle for Haven. Because Oz was useless against Hazel. So again, removing Oz from the picture affects the plot... how?

    How people unlock Semblences. Jaune at this point has at least a year of training at Beacon. It'd be illogical if he was still asking questions about the most basic elements of being a Hunter, while Oscar has zero training and thus would need even the most basic things explained to him.
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    Sort of like explaining Aura to Jaune when everyone and their mother has heard of it? I fail to see the problem with keeping Jaune as the 'audience surrogate'

    Why'd you post that 5 times? And the answer of "why haven't they done x" is always answered with "because it's a story" whether you contrive an answer or not. The explanation is irrelevant in the end since it will always boil down to "because that's what the plot needs". Having the mentor character just flatly spoil the plot is poor writing.
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    I was unaware Ozpin could see the future. Could you point out this revelation?

    But again, you are missing the point. There needs to be a good in story reason that Oz refuses to tell everyone else what he knows? As far as I can tell there is none. There is literally no reason for him not to tell them what Salem is. No reason for him not to tell them what the relics do. No reason for him to not tell them what specific mysterious Powers his cane has. No reason for him not to tell them everything he knows. We are specifically talking about in Universe reasoning. He literally has no one else to rely on except for these six kids and his toadie. And already his secret keeping has alienated two of their number.

    Now it's not impossible for the show to recover from this massive plot hole. Make it a plot point in volume 6 that he is continuing to drive people away with his constant, inexplicable need to not say anything. As the old saying goes, there's a point where incompetence is so severe that it will be mistaken for malice. And while I don't agree that Oz is a villain, I do see how people could come to that conclusion based on how absolutely awful Oz is at everything.

    VolantRedX said:
    I mean strictly speaking the only character that can't be replaced is likely Ruby herself. You could write around pretty much every character in the show if you wanted.
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    Are you for real? Are you really going to be this dishonest in any debate that comes forward? At this point you are missing the point so completely that I can only conclude that you are doing it on purpose.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    There needs to be a good in story reason that Oz refuses to tell everyone else what he knows? As far as I can tell there is none. There is literally no reason for him not to tell them what Salem is.
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    The canon reason is probably "it's all part of a master plan, maybe a bit manipulative, but ultimately for the greater good". The reason I'd like to believe is he's distrustful to even the people closest to him, to his and everyone else's detriment. Why he's distrustful would really showcase his flaws and vulnerability as a character if they went that way and explored that- and I'd dig that.

    thesevenwielder said:
    Are you for real? Are you really going to be this dishonest in any debate that comes forward? At this point you are missing the point so completely that I can only conclude that you are doing it on purpose.
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    Whoa, let's take it down a few notches.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I repeat: given Oz falling unconscious at the end of v5, it's highly unlikely that he will be able to prove his identity. Or give any exposition. It's a handy plot device, fixing the plot holes by making him literally incapable of giving exposition. But then, if he can't give it then what's his purpose? And we come back to my initial post. What is the use of an exposition machine that cannot exposit?
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    I mean unless Ironwood thinks Oscar is really good at impressions having Oz's voice come from his mouth would do a lot to prove his identity.

    thesevenwielder said:
    I was unaware Ozpin could see the future. Could you point out this revelation?

    But again, you are missing the point. There needs to be a good in story reason that Oz refuses to tell everyone else what he knows? As far as I can tell there is none. There is literally no reason for him not to tell them what Salem is. No reason for him not to tell them what the relics do. No reason for him to not tell them what specific mysterious Powers his cane has. No reason for him not to tell them everything he knows. We are specifically talking about in Universe reasoning. He literally has no one else to rely on except for these six kids and his toadie. And already his secret keeping has alienated two of their number.

    Now it's not impossible for the show to recover from this massive plot hole. Make it a plot point in volume 6 that he is continuing to drive people away with his constant, inexplicable need to not say anything. As the old saying goes, there's a point where incompetence is so severe that it will be mistaken for malice. And while I don't agree that Oz is a villain, I do see how people could come to that conclusion based on how absolutely awful Oz is at everything.
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    There's a great reason, it'd spoil the mystery. Like having Oz just come out and say shit would be pretty unsatisfying as plot revelations go. As for why he doesn't tell them in universe it's very likely that he's planing on doing so once they're actually in a position to use the information. Telling them about Salem's existence was all they needed to know up to that point and frankly he likely didn't think the rest would be relevant in the middle of Haven.

    thesevenwielder said:
    Are you for real? Are you really going to be this dishonest in any debate that comes forward? At this point you are missing the point so completely that I can only conclude that you are doing it on purpose.
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    I'm not sure where you got the idea that this was in response to your point, but I stand by what I said. To be totally fair yes Ozpin could be removed from the plot. So could the entirety of team JNR, Qrow, and really depending on how the show does it Yang, Weiss, and Blake. You could replace any one of them and it'd be easy to explain and fix. Ruby is only essential because she's the title character. Ignore that and it'd only take like a single episode to refocus the show on someone else.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Sort of like explaining Aura to Jaune when everyone and their mother has heard of it? I fail to see the problem with keeping Jaune as the 'audience surrogate'
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    Avatar has bending explained to Sokka. Naruto has ninja *genin* get chakra explained to them. MHA has Deku have to be told about the sports festival that surpasses the Olympics in local popularity. Good luck finding a series that doesn't do this kind of thing.

    Psyga315 said:
    So they need to be knee deep into despair? Because we saw only one other person unlock his Semblance and he was also knee deep into despair.
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    Also the list of other methods- meditation, being struck by lightning, etc..
     
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    Q99 said:
    Avatar has bending explained to Sokka. Naruto has ninja *genin* get chakra explained to them. MHA has Deku have to be told about the sports festival. Good luck finding a series that doesn't do this kind of thing.



    Also the list of other methods- meditation, being struck by lightning, etc..
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    Sokka: Came from a place with little to no bending outside of his sister and thus thought he did not need to know
    Naruto: Not so much needed to be explained to on what Chakra is but more so why his Chakra control sucks compared to everyone else.
    Deku: Never really looked into said school since he thought he would never be able to get into it.

    It's not that these series don't have them but that the context of how they are used is what matters
     
    Tython82 said:
    Sokka: Came from a place with little to no bending outside of his sister and thus thought he did not need to know
    Naruto: Not so much needed to be explained to on what Chakra is but more so why his Chakra control sucks compared to everyone else.
    Deku: Never really looked into said school since he thought he would never be able to get into it.

    It's not that these series don't have them but that the context of how they are used is what matters
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    Naruto explicitly didn't know what chakra was. He flat out mispronounces it and Sakura has to explain to him what chakra is in the Wave Arc. The whole explanation of chakra control came later. Naruto was unaware of what the basic superpower of his universe is
    The sports festival isn't something unique to UA(which he explicitly applied to and wanted to get into). Well UA is the school that hosts it, but it is described as a massively televised event that surpasses the Olympics in popularity. Even if you didn't bother to get into UA, you would think you would know about something that popular by cultural osmosis at least. Not even counting how he adores heroes and the sports festival is where up and coming heroes at UA get their first appearances
     
    Tython82 said:
    Sokka: Came from a place with little to no bending outside of his sister and thus thought he did not need to know
    Naruto: Not so much needed to be explained to on what Chakra is but more so why his Chakra control sucks compared to everyone else.
    Deku: Never really looked into said school since he thought he would never be able to get into it.

    It's not that these series don't have them but that the context of how they are used is what matters
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    Sokka: Has a sister who talks a lot about bending.
    Naruto: Sakura and Sasuke did not know about tree climbing. *Sakura and Sasuke*. And what Dylan said about Sakura explaining Chakra even though Naruto uses it on a regular basis.
    Deku: ... he's a hero geek and spent the last 6 months training for this school in specific. He obsessively memorizing info on many major heroes, many of whom would have UA as their alumni. Literally the most popular sporting event in the country.


    Jaune is by no means a stand-out case of early-story weirdness.
     
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    I don't think Sevens point was that they shouldn't have needed an audience surrogate but that Jaune was fine in that role. But my point is that Jaune is no longer a total newcomer. A new one is needed or at least helps.
     
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