RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Zam]

So am I the only one who thinks that when she got scared as a kid, post Summer death, Ruby might have ended up calling out for Yang if she thought somehting was under her bed or in her cupboard and Yang would either comfort her or just tear in there to make it look like she'd beat whatever scared Ruby up then chill with her younger sister for the rest of the night? Seriously I keep getting this mental image of Yang using her recently awakened Aura to light up her hair to act as a night light in a storm or something as well.

 

[Jorlem]

It might be a gauss rifle because center body mass
but I will be honest I like this weapon more

Click to shrink...

That rabbit's dynamite!

 

[revanninja]

It took me a few days to work up the nerve to watch "Destiny". "Fall" was such a gut-punch that it's left me a little gun-shy on watching RWBY.

Things I don't get:
1) I understand Ruby getting up to go investigating when she spots Emerald, but what prompted her to go into that maintenance area?
2) If Mercury is supposed to be laying low, being on the floating arena seems like a really lousy place for it.

Speculations:
1) Cinder might just want Pyrrha to win, and so might use her back door to sabotage Penny at a critical point.
2) Cinder might want to take Pyrrha out, and so might have Penny go for the kill.
3) Cinder might want to ramp up tensions in Vale, and might do that by making Penny look like a berserk murder-bot under Ironwood's control.
4) Cinder might want to screw with Pyrrha's head, which might lead to other forms of messing with Penny's actions, plus Emerald's semblance at play again.

Click to shrink...

Sorry for responding to this so late.

Emerald and CO are suppose to be gone from beacon as we are told in the very episode itself. So Ruby was most likely using the tunnels to get closer to Emerald to see what is going on without being spotted.

Mercury is in the tunnels where people arent at and if you watch the episode when ruby spots Emerald, Emerald in turn acts like she spotted ruby as well. So my guess is Emerald called Mercury and warned him they have a problem and since he is the only one able to move semi-freely he went to go handle it.

The Issue with the Speculations on Pyrrha is as far as we know outside of Pyrrha being strong cinder doesnt care about her. Unlike Yang who has on Multiple occasions gotten in the way of her plans. So I doubt Cinder will go through all that trouble so long as she doesnt know Pyrrha is suppose to be the next Fall Maiden if Cinder knows that then all that is back into play but as far as we know she doesnt know since its a recent thing and one Ozpin picked.

 

[Zam]

OK, time for the new episode... I'm freaking out!

Spoiler

OK, still getting an error page, wow, busy servers I guess.

Ozpin in his office, drinking coffee, he doesn't seem to be too happy about Pyrrha turning up.

Penny is so polite and sweet and happy life isn't fair!

The fan art was right... Holy shit this episode had no breaks I can't even process it right now. Ryby tried to shoot past Merc but he intercepted but she eventually got by him but too late to stop Pyrrha, affected by Emeralds illusions into thinking she was in more danger than she was from accidentally bisecting Penny. Ruby falls to her knees in tears and Merc and Emerald slink off. Oh gods Ruby crying

We don't know if Penny's dead but she isn't moving, her eyes seem to be doing somehting and her "father' is shown clenching his chair. Also Ironwood totally freaked out about Ozpin knowing about Penny, which is also super messed up, she just died and he's more interested in insisting to Ozpin he had a good reason for creating her. Ozpin also is losing his cool which is amazing and terrifying but wonderful and the stress is too much!

The Grim are going wild, though the Goliaths are less impressive the new Nevermores are scary as hell, its like they just got one attack under control but now thanks to this the second wave is even bigger.

The people who said Cinder was trying to undermine confidence in Hunters and Ozpin and the Academies were totally right. She took over the broadcast and framed Penny as part of a secret army and Ironwood as a dictators who forced his army on another kingdom and Ozpin as a monster who used Pyrrha to send a "message" and she's not a fan of Mistral either it seems.

Also Neo took out a whole airship by herself, quickly quietly and easily before releasing Roman who has turned the airship on two of the others and Adam's arrived with Grim in Bullheads!

Edit: Some part of me holds out hope Penny isn't dead or can be saved... But I am incredibly unsure

 

[revanninja]

Ok that episode.....wow
to all those saying RWBY lost it eat your hearts out.

 

[jwolfe_beta]

Let me just ask this:

Spoiler: Prediction

Was my guess that Mercury showed himself because the hiding part of Cinder's plan being over correct?

 

[Zam]

Let me just ask this:

Spoiler: Prediction

Was my guess that Mercury showed himself because the hiding part of Cinder's plan being over correct?

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

Sort of, he went back to hiding once the next stage of Cinder's plan went down and Ruby could no longer interfere so it seems he still needs to hie but I imagine at this point him hiding is more optional or he just has other places to be.

 

[Azecreth]

You know, it occurs to me that this secret cabal dedicated to protecting the maidens isn't all that effective. I mean, I see an awful lot of reacting and not much else. One of the maidens is in a coma and they don't even know what the person who did it looks like, and we know they've had over half a year to work on this problem. Seemingly the only people with resources are Qrow and Ironwood, and given that only the latter appears to have done anything at all to try and stop Cinder, I'm not exactly amazed by their success. I dunno, you'd expect some sort of secret organization to be a bit more proactive when it comes to potential threats

 

[Zam]

You know, it occurs to me that this secret cabal dedicated to protecting the maidens isn't all that effective. I mean, I see an awful lot of reacting and not much else. One of the maidens is in a coma and they don't even know what the person who did it looks like, and we know they've had over half a year to work on this problem. Seemingly the only people with resources are Qrow and Ironwood, and given that only the latter appears to have done anything at all to try and stop Cinder, I'm not exactly amazed by their success. I dunno, you'd expect some sort of secret organization to be a bit more proactive when it comes to potential threats

Click to shrink...

From what Ironwood said a lot of what they are experiencing is unprecedented and given how big Remnant is and how easy it probably is for someone strong and skilled enough to disappear into the wilds and remain anonymous I'm not surprised they can't seen to do much. Qrow's their agent in the field and he can't seem to find Cinder and likely has the majority of a planet to search for someone he may know nothing about. The rest only know someone strong exists who wants to steal Maiden powers and can do so, everything past that point seems like new information to them and rather out of context.

Also, sorry to ask but when was it said Amber happened a year ago? II believe it I just don't know where it was said.

 

[Azecreth]

From what Ironwood said a lot of what they are experiencing is unprecedented and given how big Remnant is and how easy it probably is for someone strong and skilled enough to disappear into the wilds and remain anonymous I'm not surprised they can't seen to do much. Qrow's their agent in the field and he can't seem to find Cinder and likely has the majority of a planet to search for someone he may know nothing about. The rest only know someone strong exists who wants to steal Maiden powers and can do so, everything past that point seems like new information to them and rather out of context.

Also, sorry to ask but when was it said Amber happened a year ago? II believe it I just don't know where it was said.

Click to shrink...

I mean, that's part of the problem. The cabal is a couple guys in a basement, one who has a school, one who has an army, and they only have one guy who can do field operations. That's a staggering amount of ground to cover and there's no way that he can do it on his own. They knew there was a direct threat to the maidens, one that was imminent, yet they did nothing to try and cope with that threat, much less deal with it.

That just ties into their general lack of information overall. Apparently nobody has eyes on the White Fang and what they're doing, the police have already been displayed as ineffectual at best and useless at worst, Cinder was hiding out in Beacon Academy itself with everyone oblivious to it, even able to stage a break in without any real threat of her cover being blown, and this is even after they knew that Cinder was working with Roman. The one success they had was Mountain Glenn, and that doesn't appear to have changed anything at all.

I don't really fault Ironwood for unintentionally making things worse, since at least he was trying to do something about the situation at hand. Sitting back and waiting to see what happens is the safe option that allows Cinder to do whatever she wants. They should have at least been preparing for what she might do, and it wasn't as if the break in at the CCT was some sort of isolated event that had to be kept covered up.

I don't think they did, I'm just guessing based off the fact that over a semester has passed since the show started, and presumably Amber getting attacked happened before Episode 1

 

[revanninja]

From what Ironwood said a lot of what they are experiencing is unprecedented and given how big Remnant is and how easy it probably is for someone strong and skilled enough to disappear into the wilds and remain anonymous I'm not surprised they can't seen to do much. Qrow's their agent in the field and he can't seem to find Cinder and likely has the majority of a planet to search for someone he may know nothing about. The rest only know someone strong exists who wants to steal Maiden powers and can do so, everything past that point seems like new information to them and rather out of context.

Also, sorry to ask but when was it said Amber happened a year ago? II believe it I just don't know where it was said.

Click to shrink...

That was me and I said I heard Blake's trailer was set roughly a year ago before episode 1 but I wasnt sure if that was true or not and no one answered when I asked if anyone else has heard that as well.

You know, it occurs to me that this secret cabal dedicated to protecting the maidens isn't all that effective. I mean, I see an awful lot of reacting and not much else. One of the maidens is in a coma and they don't even know what the person who did it looks like, and we know they've had over half a year to work on this problem. Seemingly the only people with resources are Qrow and Ironwood, and given that only the latter appears to have done anything at all to try and stop Cinder, I'm not exactly amazed by their success. I dunno, you'd expect some sort of secret organization to be a bit more proactive when it comes to potential threats

Click to shrink...

The big issue is that the secert organization is meant to protect and keep them secret they arent some control the world organization just keep 4 women and their powers hidden so they can do what they need to do.
Qrow didnt get a good look and from what everything makes clear Qrow has been hunting them HEAVILY to the point Mercury freaks just seeing him. He doesnt know who they are exactly but he is keeping close to their tails despite that. And considering Qrow only has a vague description of them based on what he saw and if anything amber can tell them that is pretty impressive.

Ozpin is currently keeping Amber safe while scouting for a new fall maiden while Ironwood is researching ways that stealing the fall miaden powers is even possible something they flat out state has never happened before.

I think we misunderstand what this society is meant for and that was intentional on Ozpin's part. I dont think this society was meant to protect the Maidens from the world but rather the World from the Maidens.
Qrow says the powers go to the last valid person in the maidens head before she dies and that can be their attacker....let that sink in. They know Maidens have been killed and their powers can go to the ladies who killed them.
More then likely this society is meant to shield the maidens but also to prevent the maidens from abusing their powers to prevent them from going out and destroying the world. Their focus isnt outwards to defend the maidens its focused inwards to watch over the maidens and secrecy has been their greatest tools after all the maidens are mere myths

I mean, that's part of the problem. The cabal is a couple guys in a basement, one who has a school, one who has an army, and they only have one guy who can do field operations. That's a staggering amount of ground to cover and there's no way that he can do it on his own. They knew there was a direct threat to the maidens, one that was imminent, yet they did nothing to try and cope with that threat, much less deal with it.

That just ties into their general lack of information overall. Apparently nobody has eyes on the White Fang and what they're doing, the police have already been displayed as ineffectual at best and useless at worst, Cinder was hiding out in Beacon Academy itself with everyone oblivious to it, even able to stage a break in without any real threat of her cover being blown, and this is even after they knew that Cinder was working with Roman. The one success they had was Mountain Glenn, and that doesn't appear to have changed anything at all.

I don't really fault Ironwood for unintentionally making things worse, since at least he was trying to do something about the situation at hand. Sitting back and waiting to see what happens is the safe option that allows Cinder to do whatever she wants. They should have at least been preparing for what she might do, and it wasn't as if the break in at the CCT was some sort of isolated event that had to be kept covered up.

I don't think they did, I'm just guessing based off the fact that over a semester has passed since the show started, and presumably Amber getting attacked happened before Episode 1

Click to shrink...

We have only been introducded to Qrow there may be more for all we know to Dust to Dusk shop owner may in fact be one would explain how he gets around so much....or he is the guy who gave the maidens their powers in the first place 50/50 on that.

And they have done a LOT to cope with Cinder the issue is they have NEVER faced this before as they mention time and time again stealing someone's fall powers while they are still alive has never happened before so they have been researching like MAD to figure it out hence Penny and Pyrrha.
White fang is a rebel group working in cell like formations history has shown us how hard tracking that type of group is.

And correction they DONT know Roman is working with Cinder they suspect and roman has been muum on the subject.

 

[hellgodsrus]

Finally caved and became a sponsor to watch it.

I am weak, and growing weaker with every second I watch.

 

[Zam]

I mean, that's part of the problem. The cabal is a couple guys in a basement, one who has a school, one who has an army, and they only have one guy who can do field operations. That's a staggering amount of ground to cover and there's no way that he can do it on his own. They knew there was a direct threat to the maidens, one that was imminent, yet they did nothing to try and cope with that threat, much less deal with it.

That just ties into their general lack of information overall. Apparently nobody has eyes on the White Fang and what they're doing, the police have already been displayed as ineffectual at best and useless at worst, Cinder was hiding out in Beacon Academy itself with everyone oblivious to it, even able to stage a break in without any real threat of her cover being blown, and this is even after they knew that Cinder was working with Roman. The one success they had was Mountain Glenn, and that doesn't appear to have changed anything at all.

I don't really fault Ironwood for unintentionally making things worse, since at least he was trying to do something about the situation at hand. Sitting back and waiting to see what happens is the safe option that allows Cinder to do whatever she wants. They should have at least been preparing for what she might do, and it wasn't as if the break in at the CCT was some sort of isolated event that had to be kept covered up.

I don't think they did, I'm just guessing based off the fact that over a semester has passed since the show started, and presumably Amber getting attacked happened before Episode 1

Click to shrink...

To be fair we don't know if Qrow is the only one they have to field work, plus if they want to keep the Maidens secret they severely limit their people power options. What could they do exactly when they seem to know next to nothing about the enemy?

Who's to say no one is looking towards the White Fang? I mean we haven't seen much of it but we also don't see much of what is going on inside police stations or secret meetings. As for Cinder they don't seem to know what she looks like so her being at Beacon isn't really their fault if her covers good.

So we don't know if a year passed? Sorry if I am being thick, its late.

That was me and I said I heard Blake's trailer was set roughly a year ago before episode 1 but I wasnt sure if that was true or not and no one answered when I asked if anyone else has heard that as well.

Click to shrink...

Ah OK then, thanks for the clarification, Well if nothing else we know it was long enough for Cinder's hair to grow out... or she uses extensions... Now I want to see Cinder VS Neon Katt.

 

[hellgodsrus]

Spoiler: SO MUCH RAGE AND PAIN

Penny's dead. They're not going to bring her back, she's dead. Fuck, just...fuck. Now we've only got Neo as best girl.

Note that while Weiss looked upset, Yang looked even more depressed than normal, and Ruby broke, Blake became incredibly angry in response to Cinder's broadcast. Hoping for some righteous smackdown next episode.

Also, if anyone is still a fan of Emerald or Mercury after this I will fight you. I sympathise with them from what little we've seen of their backstories but I can't...I just can't forgive them for this.

Fuck. Just...fuck.

 

[Azecreth]

The big issue is that the secert organization is meant to protect and keep them secret they arent some control the world organization just keep 4 women and their powers hidden so they can do what they need to do.
Qrow didnt get a good look and from what everything makes clear Qrow has been hunting them HEAVILY to the point Mercury freaks just seeing him. He doesnt know who they are exactly but he is keeping close to their tails despite that. And considering Qrow only has a vague description of them based on what he saw and if anything amber can tell them that is pretty impressive.

Ozpin is currently keeping Amber safe while scouting for a new fall maiden while Ironwood is researching ways that stealing the fall miaden powers is even possible something they flat out state has never happened before.

I think we misunderstand what this society is meant for and that was intentional on Ozpin's part. I dont think this society was meant to protect the Maidens from the world but rather the World from the Maidens.
Qrow says the powers go to the last valid person in the maidens head before she dies and that can be their attacker....let that sink in. They know Maidens have been killed and their powers can go to the ladies who killed them.
More then likely this society is meant to shield the maidens but also to prevent the maidens from abusing their powers to prevent them from going out and destroying the world. Their focus isnt outwards to defend the maidens its focused inwards to watch over the maidens and secrecy has been their greatest tools after all the maidens are mere myths

We have only been introducded to Qrow there may be more for all we know to Dust to Dusk shop owner may in fact be one would explain how he gets around so much....or he is the guy who gave the maidens their powers in the first place 50/50 on that.

And they have done a LOT to cope with Cinder the issue is they have NEVER faced this before as they mention time and time again stealing someone's fall powers while they are still alive has never happened before so they have been researching like MAD to figure it out hence Penny and Pyrrha.

Click to shrink...

Oh, I'm not saying that society was created to protect the maidens, I'm just saying that the Cabal are bad at their jobs. Which they are. We wouldn't have a plot if they were totally effective at the whole 'secrecy' thing.

If they catch Cinder and deal with her before she can get the Fall Maiden's powers, then there wouldn't be an issue in the first place, now would there? But they've made no move on Cinder, or done serious damage to any of the elements supporting her.

White fang is a rebel group working in cell like formations history has shown us how hard tracking that type of group is.

And correction they DONT know Roman is working with Cinder they suspect and roman has been muum on the subject.

Click to shrink...

They would know if the White Fang were planning major operations. That's the sort of thing that you can't simply keep isolated between cells, and I don't recall having seen any indication that the White Fang works like a group of isolated cells, given how large those 'cells' appear to be, and Adam's claim that he can force the White Fang to listen to him.

Even if they only suspect it, it has to be a heavy suspicion. Glynda could confirms as much from Episode 1, when she fought Cinder on the Bullhead.

To be fair we don't know if Qrow is the only one they have to field work, plus if they want to keep the Maidens secret they severely limit their people power options. What could they do exactly when they seem to know next to nothing about the enemy?

Who's to say no one is looking towards the White Fang? I mean we haven't seen much of it but we also don't see much of what is going on inside police stations or secret meetings. As for Cinder they don't seem to know what she looks like so her being at Beacon isn't really their fault if her covers good.

Click to shrink...

I'd disagree. Even if they don't have people directly in the know, they can think up an excuse. For example, investigating Mountain Glenn back in Volume 2. People don't have to know about Cinder herself, they just have to be given an excuse that takes them in the direction that Ozpin or the Cabal want them to go. Otherwise they'd have no way to keep the maiden's secret in the first place.

Well, y'know, the giant secret base that the Fang set up in Mountain Glenn which was apparently only noticed because of a tip from Team RWBY? The massive amounts of military hardware that the Fang has been getting which isn't exactly the sort of thing that should reasonably go unnoticed if someone is bothering to pay attention? Hell, they even had the mech chase from Volume 2 to highlight the point. And as has been shown before, the police are useless at best.

They knew that the infiltrator from the CCT Break in went back to Beacon afterwards. The fact that there was apparently no investigation is a bit ridiculous in that regard, and should have set off some alarm bells. But nope, just business as normal.

 

[Zam]

Spoiler: SO MUCH RAGE AND PAIN

Penny's dead. They're not going to bring her back, she's dead. Fuck, just...fuck. Now we've only got Neo as best girl.

Note that while Weiss looked upset, Yang looked even more depressed than normal, and Ruby broke, Blake became incredibly angry in response to Cinder's broadcast. Hoping for some righteous smackdown next episode.

Also, if anyone is still a fan of Emerald or Mercury after this I will fight you. I sympathise with them from what little we've seen of their backstories but I can't...I just can't forgive them for this.

Fuck. Just...fuck.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler

It might be OK, who knows, she is a robot, maybe she'll be OK... One day... Maybe.

Pretty much agreed with you on everything said.

I'd disagree. Even if they don't have people directly in the know, they can think up an excuse. For example, investigating Mountain Glenn back in Volume 2. People don't have to know about Cinder herself, they just have to be given an excuse that takes them in the direction that Ozpin or the Cabal want them to go. Otherwise they'd have no way to keep the maiden's secret in the first place.

Well, y'know, the giant secret base that the Fang set up in Mountain Glenn which was apparently only noticed because of a tip from Team RWBY? The massive amounts of military hardware that the Fang has been getting which isn't exactly the sort of thing that should reasonably go unnoticed if someone is bothering to pay attention? Hell, they even had the mech chase from Volume 2 to highlight the point. And as has been shown before, the police are useless at best.

They knew that the infiltrator from the CCT Break in went back to Beacon afterwards. The fact that there was apparently no investigation is a bit ridiculous in that regard, and should have set off some alarm bells. But nope, just business as normal.

Click to shrink...

But they did send people to investigate Mountain Glenn, it didn't work perfectly but they did send people and prior to the info they received they had little reason to look there from what I know.

Again, Remnant is large and there's tons of uninhabited or controlled land, moving illegal or stolen shipments through it seems like its easy so long as one accounts for the Grim and they were hanging out in an underground cavern an archaeologist and historical expert picked specifically for the mission didn't even know about or remember until he saw it. Ozpin mentioned the mech but RWBY is a show with a limited run time, they can't spend several minutes on news reports covering info we already know, well they could but they'd need to cut stuff. As for the police... Are you actually expecting the police to deal with a highly experience terrorist army, and a super criminal who have outside backers giving them mechs and other tools?

How do they know she went back to Beacon? All the soldiers know is that they lost her after losing sight of her and given Raven has portals and Neo "might" be able to teloport there are other explanations than 'she's posing as a student. How do we know there was no investigation? Yes we didn't see it but for the most part the show seems to want to keep its mystery about who is doing what and why so we only know as much as RWBY or JNPR do, until recently.

I think an important thing to keep in mind is that Ozpin's crew seem to start off knowing nothing, they don't know who Cinder is, where she came from or how she does what she does. But barring one or two instances Cinder seems to operate mostly through proxy's and representatives over acting directly and similarly keeping both her followers in the dark and setting up problems that don't necessarily connect to her (like the Breach) but still help her end goal.

 

[revanninja]

Oh, I'm not saying that society was created to protect the maidens, I'm just saying that the Cabal are bad at their jobs. Which they are. We wouldn't have a plot if they were totally effective at the whole 'secrecy' thing.

If they catch Cinder and deal with her before she can get the Fall Maiden's powers, then there wouldn't be an issue in the first place, now would there? But they've made no move on Cinder, or done serious damage to any of the elements supporting her.

Click to shrink...

Actually considering how long the maidens have been around they havent been at all.
Its actually hinted at that there is a SECOND cabal which Cinder works for and is her backers.
The Big issue with your idea it requires them to know about her as "her" not as someone attacking the maidens.
Cinder has gone dark heavily and a LOT of the things she has been doing are things that would be missed. It was until Season's 2 end that it was clear more was going on here then they realized but from Season 2 till now isnt that long from my understanding.
Take a step back and remove the viewer mindset and instead step in Ozpin's shoes based on what we are told Ozpin knows or can reasonably see.
He doesnt have the clues we do and also Cinder is an Unknown something you missed. Cinder as a person is COMPLETELY unknown to them they have been trying to track her down but they dont even know what she looks like.

They would know if the White Fang were planning major operations. That's the sort of thing that you can't simply keep isolated between cells, and I don't recall having seen any indication that the White Fang works like a group of isolated cells, given how large those 'cells' appear to be, and Adam's claim that he can force the White Fang to listen to him.

Even if they only suspect it, it has to be a heavy suspicion. Glynda could confirms as much from Episode 1, when she fought Cinder on the Bullhead.

Click to shrink...

Uhmmm NO? Glynda fought a women who can use Fire semblence in a bullhead with ZERO connection to Cinder. They dont even know its the same woman who attacked Amber.
Seriously Cinder isnt known to them. They have nothing that connects the 2.

And no so far they havent needed a large amount of white fang. The biggest was the train job from what we have seen and that as made clear by last episode was mostly Adam's White Fang followers aka chainsaw guy. Cinder and Adam seem to be BIG followers of small forces big effects. A lot of the prep work for the train job was done by Roman a criminal who up to that point wasnt a known white fang and the staging area was a heavily grim infested area.

I'd disagree. Even if they don't have people directly in the know, they can think up an excuse. For example, investigating Mountain Glenn back in Volume 2. People don't have to know about Cinder herself, they just have to be given an excuse that takes them in the direction that Ozpin or the Cabal want them to go. Otherwise they'd have no way to keep the maiden's secret in the first place.

Well, y'know, the giant secret base that the Fang set up in Mountain Glenn which was apparently only noticed because of a tip from Team RWBY? The massive amounts of military hardware that the Fang has been getting which isn't exactly the sort of thing that should reasonably go unnoticed if someone is bothering to pay attention? Hell, they even had the mech chase from Volume 2 to highlight the point. And as has been shown before, the police are useless at best.

They knew that the infiltrator from the CCT Break in went back to Beacon afterwards. The fact that there was apparently no investigation is a bit ridiculous in that regard, and should have set off some alarm bells. But nope, just business as normal.

Click to shrink...

It wasnt White fang stealing the military equipment or Dust it was Roman so they were being supplied outside normal channels which makes tracking it hard.
Mt. Glenn didnt have any reason to be investigated Ozpin didnt know about it neither did ruby he just allowed himself to be played by ruby which the episode made clear he was fully aware of Ruby's action.

Team RWBY discovered that by pure accident as the episode made clear and it wasnt a big base I dont know where you got that idea from since the professor tells us it was a tunnel system set up to expand outside the borders and allow free movement but failed and was sealed off. That was the point of the train bomb blow open the tunnel let the grim in then blow the tunnel plug to allow the grim into the city.
White fang was using what was already there no more no less they just used the stuff roman stole to make it work.

And they didnt know the intruder went back to beacon where did you even? They just knew an intruder happened and where investigating the CCT but couldnt find anything.

 

[Zam]

Uhmmm NO? Glynda fought a women who can use Fire semblence in a bullhead with ZERO connection to Cinder. They dont even know its the same woman who attacked Amber.

Click to shrink...

Technically they may have a little, I think Cinder's screaming fire blasts were seen by Qrow and Glynda so if his report mentioned them they can make a connection but its a fairly loose one and for all they know Roman's just another patsy who knows nothing off the true scale of what's going on and it doesn't offer them huge insights regardless beyond a need to ratchet up security which, well Ironwood did for good and ill.

 

[revanninja]

Technically they may have a little, I think Cinder's screaming fire blasts were seen by Qrow and Glynda so if his report mentioned them they can make a connection but its a fairly loose one and for all they know Roman's just another patsy who knows nothing off the true scale of what's going on and it doesn't offer them huge insights regardless beyond a need to ratchet up security which, well Ironwood did for good and ill.

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Its thin at best and since its not qrow or glynda seeing both "screaming fire blast" doesnt mean it connects. And that is only if Qrow even mentioned it screamed instead of just fire blast.

 

[Zam]

Its thin at best and since its not qrow or glynda seeing both "screaming fire blast" doesnt mean it connects. And that is only if Qrow even mentioned it screamed instead of just fire blast.

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Oh I agree it is thin, especially seeing as Cinder seemed to use such attacks prior to stealing Amber's power. All it tells them is that Roman was in the company of a woman who has fire blasts which 'could' connect him to their unknown Maiden thief but how and in what context as well as how much he knows is all up in the air considering their knowledge of her background and motives appear to be none existent. Plus, yeah, Qrow may not have described, or even remembered everything about that battle so the attacks being similar is slightly helpful, at best and that's if they really pull it all together at once and it still leaves them with next to nothing given Roman either won't crack or doesn't know anything.

Oh I also forgot to mention Roman apparently got police on every corner which is something.

 

[Azecreth]

But they did send people to investigate Mountain Glenn, it didn't work perfectly but they did send people and prior to the info they received they had little reason to look there from what I know.

Again, Remnant is large and there's tons of uninhabited or controlled land, moving illegal or stolen shipments through it seems like its easy so long as one accounts for the Grim and they were hanging out in an underground cavern an archaeologist and historical expert picked specifically for the mission didn't even know about or remember until he saw it. Ozpin mentioned the mech but RWBY is a show with a limited run time, they can't spend several minutes on news reports covering info we already know, well they could but they'd need to cut stuff. As for the police... Are you actually expecting the police to deal with a highly experience terrorist army, and a super criminal who have outside backers giving them mechs and other tools?

How do they know she went back to Beacon? All the soldiers know is that they lost her after losing sight of her and given Raven has portals and Neo "might" be able to teloport there are other explanations than 'she's posing as a student. How do we know there was no investigation? Yes we didn't see it but for the most part the show seems to want to keep its mystery about who is doing what and why so we only know as much as RWBY or JNPR do, until recently.

I think an important thing to keep in mind is that Ozpin's crew seem to start off knowing nothing, they don't know who Cinder is, where she came from or how she does what she does. But barring one or two instances Cinder seems to operate mostly through proxy's and representatives over acting directly and similarly keeping both her followers in the dark and setting up problems that don't necessarily connect to her (like the Breach) but still help her end goal.

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Well, you're the one who more mentioned the police, I was just pointing out that apparently no one has any idea what the only significant terrorist organization in the country is doing before they launch any plans that they might have. Besides, a bunch of White Fang members vanishing because they've gone to Mountain Glenn is going to be noticed, at least if they have competent people monitoring the Fang and what they're doing to predict what they'll do next..

But of course they don't. It's not like preventing terrorist attacks is something that any reasonable government would attempt to do, right?

Actually they did. If you'll recall, the guards following Cinder follow her back to the dance hall, then lose sight of her one she's entered it.. The dance which is in Beacon. Ergo, the intruder went back to Beacon.

Actually considering how long the maidens have been around they havent been at all.
Its actually hinted at that there is a SECOND cabal which Cinder works for and is her backers.
The Big issue with your idea it requires them to know about her as "her" not as someone attacking the maidens.
Cinder has gone dark heavily and a LOT of the things she has been doing are things that would be missed. It was until Season's 2 end that it was clear more was going on here then they realized but from Season 2 till now isnt that long from my understanding.
Take a step back and remove the viewer mindset and instead step in Ozpin's shoes based on what we are told Ozpin knows or can reasonably see.
He doesnt have the clues we do and also Cinder is an Unknown something you missed. Cinder as a person is COMPLETELY unknown to them they have been trying to track her down but they dont even know what she looks like.

And no so far they havent needed a large amount of white fang. The biggest was the train job from what we have seen and that as made clear by last episode was mostly Adam's White Fang followers aka chainsaw guy. Cinder and Adam seem to be BIG followers of small forces big effects. A lot of the prep work for the train job was done by Roman a criminal who up to that point wasnt a known white fang and the staging area was a heavily grim infested area.

It wasnt White fang stealing the military equipment or Dust it was Roman so they were being supplied outside normal channels which makes tracking it hard.
Mt. Glenn didnt have any reason to be investigated Ozpin didnt know about it neither did ruby he just allowed himself to be played by ruby which the episode made clear he was fully aware of Ruby's action.

Team RWBY discovered that by pure accident as the episode made clear and it wasnt a big base I dont know where you got that idea from since the professor tells us it was a tunnel system set up to expand outside the borders and allow free movement but failed and was sealed off. That was the point of the train bomb blow open the tunnel let the grim in then blow the tunnel plug to allow the grim into the city.
White fang was using what was already there no more no less they just used the stuff roman stole to make it work.

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My problem is that Ozpin should by nature have a lot more knowledge than Team RWBY. My problem is that they have totally ceded the initiative to Cinder's faction, thereby ensuring that whatever plans she has in mind go ahead uncontested, and potentially place the whole Kingdom in danger. While Ironwood may have exacerbated the situation, at least he was acting to try and deal with the problem before it became a major threat. As opposed to Ozpin, who has given no indication that he has even put contingency plans in place for when Cinder does act.

Regardless of where it came from, the fact remains that the White Fang had it. This isn't just guns, they have to know that the White Fang, based off the mech chase, has access to cutting edge military hardware that, by all descriptions, hasn't even be released for purchase or mainline production yet. That is a critical failure of intelligence, both in Atlas and in Vale itself.

Exactly. The fact that the information the Cabal needs to counter Cinders plans always comes from unaffiliated sources like Team RWBY is a problem. Otherwise they would have had no idea that the Mountain Glenn facility even existed, which is a critical failure of intelligence gathering, and information is the life blood of an organization dedicated to secrecy of some kind.

It's an underground city. How is that not 'a big base'?

Adam says he can keep the White Fang supporting Cinder. That implies he has more pull amongst the overall organization than just the small group that got taken out in Mountain Glenn.

 

[Zam]

Well, you're the one who more mentioned the police, I was just pointing out that apparently no one has any idea what the only significant terrorist organization in the country is doing before they launch any plans that they might have.

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I'm pretty sure you mentioned the police first though I could be wrong:

That just ties into their general lack of information overall. Apparently nobody has eyes on the White Fang and what they're doing, the police have already been displayed as ineffectual at best and useless at worst,

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Well, you're the one who more mentioned the police, I was just pointing out that apparently no one has any idea what the only significant terrorist organization in the country is doing before they launch any plans that they might have. Besides, a bunch of White Fang members vanishing because they've gone to Mountain Glenn is going to be noticed, at least if they have competent people monitoring the Fang and what they're doing to predict what they'll do next..

But of course they don't. It's not like preventing terrorist attacks is something that any reasonable government would attempt to do, right?

Actually they did. If you'll recall, the guards following Cinder follow her back to the dance hall, then lose sight of her one she's entered it.. The dance which is in Beacon. Ergo, the intruder went back to Beacon.

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Regardless that's not very shocking, at least not to me, the White Fang have seemingly been at this for awhile, and have several high powered warriors, and skilled strategists on their side, they're seemingly an army that, based on what we saw with Adam may also operate outside the kingdoms quite often and will, regardless, likely be very practised in covering their tracks and planning assaults on an unsuspecting public. Its essentially the primary focus and skill set of terrorists.
I'm kind of confused by your definition of competence, if they knew where the White Fang (WF) were or what they were doing there would never being any confusion nor would they be a threat, they'd have been caught. I mean, how would they know how many WF there are, or where they are located, or what they are planning? All this information has to spring from somewhere and if they've got a limited to none existent starting point I'm not sure what you expect them to do. Plus predicting their plans seems, while not impossible, kind of unreasonable, one can do a lot with Dust, predicting they were going to let Grim into the city feels like a big leap if they have no lead in besides a lot of thefts and a base outside the kingdom.

They did try though.

I acknowledged that and pointed out we have seen a minimum of one instance of teloporting, possibly two which means there are other ways for her to escape, plus illusions Semblances or invisibility and possibly other options than the criminal is hiding amongst school children. Add in that generally most criminals try to avoid the scene of the crime and assuming she's among the students still feels like a big leap. Not an impossible one mind, but if they know next to nothing about what she looks like or is doing they're still back at square one.

 

[Zam]

Spoiler

So I think I just realized why I like Cinder's speech so much, beyond well, a lot of stuff, its that even if people realize already or later that they were being played or even that "the voice" was behind it all, Cinder still gets what she wants. The entire speech from an audience reaction perspective can be broken into two parts I feel, the first is simply inspiring negativity, evil-voice or evil headmasters work for that no matter who believes what. However its the second part that gets me, namely that it feels so much like a "I know you'replaying me, but you're right" sort of situation. Sure the people may think the voice is evil, or they may find everything suspicious but that doesn't matter because a;most everything Cinder said has either a grain of truth or looks true, so they may know they are being manipulated, but it doesn't matter because some part of them doubt their heroes, some part of them believes the worst.

 

[Azecreth]

Regardless that's not very shocking, at least not to me, the White Fang have seemingly been at this for awhile, and have several high powered warriors, and skilled strategists on their side, they're seemingly an army that, based on what we saw with Adam may also operate outside the kingdoms quite often and will, regardless, likely be very practised in covering their tracks and planning assaults on an unsuspecting public. Its essentially the primary focus and skill set of terrorists.
I'm kind of confused by your definition of competence, if they knew where the White Fang (WF) were or what they were doing there would never being any confusion nor would they be a threat, they'd have been caught. I mean, how would they know how many WF there are, or where they are located, or what they are planning? All this information has to spring from somewhere and if they've got a limited to none existent starting point I'm not sure what you expect them to do. Plus predicting their plans seems, while not impossible, kind of unreasonable, one can do a lot with Dust, predicting they were going to let Grim into the city feels like a big leap if they have no lead in besides a lot of thefts and a base outside the kingdom.

They did try though.

I acknowledged that and pointed out we have seen a minimum of one instance of teloporting, possibly two which means there are other ways for her to escape, plus illusions Semblances or invisibility and possibly other options than the criminal is hiding amongst school children. Add in that generally most criminals try to avoid the scene of the crime and assuming she's among the students still feels like a big leap. Not an impossible one mind, but if they know next to nothing about what she looks like or is doing they're still back at square one.

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Yeah, and the government has been at this for a while to. Yet there hasn't been a mutual escalation of any kind, but just a complete dominance on the part of the White Fang. Though it does kinda prove them right when the authorities can only break up peaceful protests and are totally useless against an armed movement.

For one, it implies that they couldn't have spies in the organization itself, who could clue the authorities in even if they can't actively contribute. There could be, say, the movement of large sums of money or purchases of stuff that could be used for explosives by known White Fang sympathizers. There's the fact that even if the mech chase didn't give it away, Roman rolling up to the docks with a couple Bullheads worth of White Fang grunts would be a sign that they're working together, which could be confirmed if they have some idea of whats happening in the underworld.

Basically, the same way that they do it in real life.

The students also showed no indication of noticing an intruder, and leaping to the conclusion that just because you can't see them in a crowded room full of people automatically means that they teleported away or cloaked themselves is a bad thing to do. In a setting like Remnant, one would assume that people dealing in security have had some training in dealing with Semblances like Illusion powers, or Teleportation, which they could feasibly use. Otherwise all it takes is one actual criminal with a teleportation Semblance, and you can kiss the economy of the Kingdom goodbye, because they could rob it with impunity and never get caught.

 

[revanninja]

Well, you're the one who more mentioned the police, I was just pointing out that apparently no one has any idea what the only significant terrorist organization in the country is doing before they launch any plans that they might have. Besides, a bunch of White Fang members vanishing because they've gone to Mountain Glenn is going to be noticed, at least if they have competent people monitoring the Fang and what they're doing to predict what they'll do next..

But of course they don't. It's not like preventing terrorist attacks is something that any reasonable government would attempt to do, right?

Actually they did. If you'll recall, the guards following Cinder follow her back to the dance hall, then lose sight of her one she's entered it.. The dance which is in Beacon. Ergo, the intruder went back to Beacon.

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That has problems with it a LOT of problems with it.
Governments try to prevent them keyword TRY it doesnt always work. And if the group is breaking off in ones and twos and not last seen going towards Mt. Glenn...you see the issue?

As for the dance yes and no guards went into the Dance hall but they were looking around its unknown if they were following here or just looking in the dance hall since one of them steps on her mask without noticing I dont think they were following her but rather looking around for her. Also a giant dance is an EASY place for someone to slip in and out without being noticed who is not connected to the school.

Basically the dance means nothing in terms of who is who.

My problem is that Ozpin should by nature have a lot more knowledge than Team RWBY. My problem is that they have totally ceded the initiative to Cinder's faction, thereby ensuring that whatever plans she has in mind go ahead uncontested, and potentially place the whole Kingdom in danger. While Ironwood may have exacerbated the situation, at least he was acting to try and deal with the problem before it became a major threat. As opposed to Ozpin, who has given no indication that he has even put contingency plans in place for when Cinder does act.

Regardless of where it came from, the fact remains that the White Fang had it. This isn't just guns, they have to know that the White Fang, based off the mech chase, has access to cutting edge military hardware that, by all descriptions, hasn't even be released for purchase or mainline production yet. That is a critical failure of intelligence, both in Atlas and in Vale itself.

Exactly. The fact that the information the Cabal needs to counter Cinders plans always comes from unaffiliated sources like Team RWBY is a problem. Otherwise they would have had no idea that the Mountain Glenn facility even existed, which is a critical failure of intelligence gathering, and information is the life blood of an organization dedicated to secrecy of some kind.

It's an underground city. How is that not 'a big base'?

Adam says he can keep the White Fang supporting Cinder. That implies he has more pull amongst the overall organization than just the small group that got taken out in Mountain Glenn.

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I am sorry are we talking about whole governments or people who run I dont know a SCHOOL....they are limited in what they could do. And Ironwood created a LOT of the problems he moved before cinder was even a blip on the radar or are you forgetting that?
They have only the information their agents who we dont know how many there are bring them and they are limited both by their roles and their agents. Ozpin by his very job cant leave Beacon easily and that is important.
Cinder and her crew on the other hand are free to move as they like which makes reacting to them hard because Ozpin and the teachers are tied to beacon and limited because of that.
The Only reason why Ironwood was even able to come was because of the Vital tournament otherwise what he did would have started a WAR.
Cinder is free to do what she wants because her goal appears to be revolution while Ozpin and the others are the defenders of the Status quo.

Except White fang got it from a criminal who had up till season 2 no connections to White fang. And the chase you keep bringing up? Roman not white fang it was at a rally for white fang sure but the chase has no connections to it unless Team Rwby says something and they clearly arent.
It is a Failure I am not arguing that but not one that is connected to white fang just to Roman who isnt connected to White Fang.

The Information came from RWBY but wasnt being acted on by the Cabal as a legtimate source or did you forget that part? Ozpin clearly knew Ruby wasnt being truthful with him.
The Big Issue and your failure to understand is White Fang=/=Maiden.
What is the Cabal's mission? To protect the Maidens not stop White Fang. Is Cinder known to be working with the White Fang as far as the Cabal know? No there is no connection they dont even know Roman is working with Cinder and they dont even know who Cinder is.
Why Because Cinder literally came out of the Dark attacked Amber then left and hasnt made herself known to them since.
We as Viewers know the connections Ozpin and the crew do not and that is CRITICALLY important to keep in mind.

You keep on acting like they are the protectors of the world and that White Fang is their job it isnt.

As for the City it wasnt built by white fang and wasnt being used as a base either. The city was built in attempt to make a new city which failed BADLY. The white fang arent shown populating the city and instead seem only concerned with the train. And seeing how the plan would open the city to grim making it a long term base of any kind is incredibly stupid.
No it was a short term base where they prep the train for its bombs no more.

Yes he has pull but that isnt shown till AFTER the train job in case you forget making it clear he is pulling from other groups after his group more or less got wiped out.

The Big issue to keep in mind the Police may be useless since we havent really seen what is going on outside of one incident I cant say ya or ney on them but the cabal is actually not aimed at stopping the white fang or even dealing with them they are focusing on the maidens and their biggest concern is how amber had her powers stolen which has never happened before.

Yeah, and the government has been at this for a while to. Yet there hasn't been a mutual escalation of any kind, but just a complete dominance on the part of the White Fang. Though it does kinda prove them right when the authorities can only break up peaceful protests and are totally useless against an armed movement.

For one, it implies that they couldn't have spies in the organization itself, who could clue the authorities in even if they can't actively contribute. There could be, say, the movement of large sums of money or purchases of stuff that could be used for explosives by known White Fang sympathizers. There's the fact that even if the mech chase didn't give it away, Roman rolling up to the docks with a couple Bullheads worth of White Fang grunts would be a sign that they're working together, which could be confirmed if they have some idea of whats happening in the underworld.

Basically, the same way that they do it in real life.

The students also showed no indication of noticing an intruder, and leaping to the conclusion that just because you can't see them in a crowded room full of people automatically means that they teleported away or cloaked themselves is a bad thing to do. In a setting like Remnant, one would assume that people dealing in security have had some training in dealing with Semblances like Illusion powers, or Teleportation, which they could feasibly use. Otherwise all it takes is one actual criminal with a teleportation Semblance, and you can kiss the economy of the Kingdom goodbye, because they could rob it with impunity and never get caught.

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Uhmmm no.
The white fang is getting its teeth kicked in. They wouldnt be in the woods and in a position where Cinder can take control of them if they were dominating like you claim. In fact that points more to them LOSING.

The white fang might have supporters but anti-animal people (I forget their name type) is actually STRONG from what the creators have said. So far more likely they arent doing well.

The students had people entering and leaving the dance the whole time they wouldnt notice a dance is a GREAT place to get in and out of like what Cinder does.

EDIT
Another fact that makes it clear the white fang is losing is the fact their goal is to overthrow the government since that clearly hasnt happened if they were dominating like you claim the whole city would be far more shaky and blake's past would be a MUCH bigger issue then its presented as.