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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • GuestLurker said:
    Given Atlas is based on the US and the US does have plans for zombies and even more crazy stuff, them having something of a plan for a situation even vaguely like it wouldn't be unexpected.
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    I mean even ignoring that they clearly didn't have such a plan, I feel trusting the US's planning skills is um, how should I put this delicately...

    A bad idea that's doomed for immediate failure due to the staggering incompetence of the military industrial complex. The callouses disregard for life held by a large portion of a certain political party and their partisans. Plus, the engines of capitalism that would rather millions die than to loosen their stranglehold on the common person for even a microbe of a second.
     
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    Zam said:
    I mean even ignoring that they clearly didn't have such a plan, I feel trusting the US's planning skills is um, how should I put this delicately...

    A bad idea that's doomed for immediate failure due to the staggering incompetence of the military industrial complex. The callouses disregard for life held by a large portion of a certain political party and their partisans. Plus, the engines of capitalism that would rather millions die than to loosen their stranglehold on the common person for even a microbe of a second.
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    I never said it would be a good plan, but having one that was made to justify further expenses even though no one thought it would ever be needed is basically the actual purpose of the zombie plan, though it can also be used for how to deal with certain kind of normal diseases.
    excalibur2008 said:
    Do we know if people besides Ozpin actually knew Grimm came from black pools?
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    It's basically a capital ship sized landing craft, and we have stuff kind of like those on the water, while areal ones would probably be easier due to not needing to deal with salt water in their everything. Honestly not having plans for something like that when he's so paranoid about being attacked is probably worse.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    I never said it would be a good plan, but having one that was made to justify further expenses even though no one thought it would ever be needed is basically the actual purpose of the zombie plan, though it can also be used for how to deal with certain kind of normal diseases.
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    Again though, you're talking about a country where thousands were left to freeze and die because their politicians didn't care if their power went out cos he could go on holiday. Plans are useless if they are drafted by callous idiots and that also relies on them bothering to draft such plans, which as we know from many natural disasters in the US they either don't, or don't bother utilizing.

    Not like I can talk, a city in Australia had to try and Go Fund Me Disaster aid due to flood.
     
    All too often people seem to confuse truly hard decisions with things that are convenient. If Israel actually made real concessions the Palestinians would give up the crusade, and in the 90s most palestinians expressed cautious support and showed a slowdown in attacks when it seemed like Israel was actually serious. However that would mean abandoning their dreams of lebensraum and a racially pure homeland + enduring temporary discomfort and feeling unsafe so best just use mass murder to keep them in line and call anyone who points out that the mess is your fault an anti semite.

    I've cited Mass Effect as a good example of how the "hard man is analyzed". While there are some instances where you do have to make an unpleasant decision, it's made clear that in the long run Paragon (that is, basic human decency) gets far more mileage. Cerberus's leader (who LITERALLY the hard man cliche personified) ultimately just makes things a lot worse because they tried to shoulder the burden alone, cracked, and ultimately did bad things because it was convenient.



    The instances where it's been done relatively well include the following

    1.) The person genuinely did try another way, or looked for one.
    2.) The person's willing to pay the price for their actions.
    3.) It's made clear that the only reason things got to that point was because the character or others fucked up somewhere along the way.

    Venat from Final Fantasy XIV is an example of 1; she ends up breaking the world into multiple shards and creating a world of suffering because in the long run the races needed to learn how to handle despair if they were to have a chance of defeating the Endsinger. It breaks her heart to do it, but she does it anyway (it also doesn't help that the "paradise" she destroyed had a lot of problems and rot beneath the glamor and her fellows don't want to admit it.)

    Taylor Hebert from Worm and Harry Dresden are to an extent number 3 Taylor's mass brainwashing to defeat the big bad was only inevitable because she and the evil conspiracy had made certain boneheaded decisions earlier (Cauldron in particular is Hard Men doing things because it's easy, and it's pretty much stated that the only time they accomplished anything worth shit was in their relatively benevolent phase. After they go full hard man they either don't do a damn thing or just make the world worse.) In the Dresden Files Harry is forced to sacrifice the woman he loves in book 12 to help save the world; he bitterly admits later that had he made smarter choices things wouldn't have gotten to the point.

    Ironwood is none of these things. He does things because it's easy, is unwilling to pay the price for his actions, and refuses to acknowledge that he might have screwed up somewhere along the way or that the system itself might be the problem.

    Funnily enough a fanfic from back in 2016-2017 did the "morally ambiguous decisions to save the world" thing far better. Since this story was from back in the Post Vol 3 Volume 4 days it deviates WILDLY from canon (Watts and Hazel don't show up at all since the story was well in progress by the time they're introduced). One of the biggest changes is Raven Branwen; basically in this version she discovered a pool of fossilized aura called the Water of Life. This allowed her to see the past and various outcomes of the future.....only one saw humanity survive and that involved letting Salem's forces get the maiden powers so that she'd cross the netherworld and be vulnerable (basically what happened with Dr Strange in Infinity War and Endgame). Due to how the pool worked Raven couldn't tell anyone about it for fear of changing the outcome, and so she ended up doing a LOT of awful things to ensure humanity's survival in the long run.

    In fact it's pretty much outright stated that she used the pool to help Cinder plan out her various atrocities (the fall of Beacon, the fall of Mistral) and she also helps cause the death of the Winter Maiden (Weiss's mom in this universe) and the Summer Maiden (a 12 year old girl). There are others, but essentially Raven has a LOT of blood on her hands, and when Ruby and Yang call her out on it she basically says "I did what I had to in order to save the world."

    That said, it's also made clear that she truly DID try to find other ways to stop the apocalypse, and at the end of the story after she becomes the new Grimm Queen.....(it makes sense in context) she opts to stay in the Netherworld despite having the chance to leave at anytime, essentially because she feels she doesn't deserve a happy ending after everything she's done. In short, she's willing to pay the price for her sins even if she felt they were necessary to save the world.
     
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    I completely agree the telling distinction between sacrificing others and sacrificing yourself is an incredibly important distinction to make.

    I hesitate to claim outright that Ironwood is unwilling to sacrifice given what he did to his arm in Vol 7. That's more Raven's thing.
    Maybe you could argue he didn't really value his arm, but that's hypothetical if potentially convincing. And it must have been excruciating anyways.​
    ​
    But, I will say I believe Ironwood seeks control above all else. He's not Jacques, he's perfectly willing to be altruistic, but it has to be on his terms.
    That's why he brings his army to Vale. Because he controls it.
    That's why he closes the borders. He can control that.
    That's why he leaves Mantle out of the loop, robs it, and then ultimately leaves it to die. Because he doesn't control it.
    That's why the chess piece triggered him so badly. Because Cinder turned the things he trusted most, his robots and machines, against him. She stole his control.
    That's why he flips out on RWBY and company. Because by defying his authority they are ruining his safe space.
    That's why Salem's invasion causes him to implode. Because all his control is meaningless.

    I have no doubt Ironwood honestly planned on saving the world. But it would have been a world where he ruled. For everyone else's good.
     
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    buli-buli said:
    I completely agree the telling distinction between sacrificing others and sacrificing yourself is an incredibly important distinction to make.

    I hesitate to claim outright that Ironwood is unwilling to sacrifice given what he did to his arm in Vol 7. That's more Raven's thing.
    Maybe you could argue he didn't really value his arm, but that's hypothetical if potentially convincing. And it must have been excruciating anyways.​
    ​
    But, I will say I believe Ironwood seeks control above all else. He's not Jacques, he's perfectly willing to be altruistic, but it has to be on his terms.
    That's why he brings his army to Vale. Because he controls it.
    That's why he closes the borders. He can control that.
    That's why he leaves Mantle out of the loop, robs it, and then ultimately leaves it to die. Because he doesn't control it.
    That's why the chess piece triggered him so badly. Because Cinder turned the things he trusted most, his robots and machines, against him. She stole his control.
    That's why he flips out on RWBY and company. Because by defying his authority they are ruining his safe space.
    That's why Salem's invasion causes him to implode. Because all his control is meaningless.

    I have no doubt Ironwood honestly planned on saving the world. But it would have been a world where he ruled. For everyone else's good.
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    A good post but it's more that he wants to do things that are convenient for him. If it would make him feel uncomfortable or out of control he won't do it even if long term it is best (kinda like how in the 90s a lot of Israelis didn't want to endure short term hardships and this caused them to fall back on overly harsh methods)
     
    Staff Notice: All of this is a lot of unnecessary spaghetti posting. Please refrain from doing it in the future.
    Zam said:
    but has no actual meaning in regards to the aforementioned topic of people betraying or corrupting good organizations.
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    Uhm. Distraction?
    Yeah you are right. I don't care for that story so want thestory ofthe now restored/good activist confronting the realproblem their way.

    Zam said:
    humans, so there's not really any large conflict between her and Blake to explore and they lacked a personal bond.
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    So the point ws adam corrupting and abusing women and or their goals. Not what those goals and actions were. Even now with him gone?
    Zam said:
    have no understanding of any of the rest of this, the sentence structure just leaves me scratching my head in confusion.
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    Pugman said:
    Instead her story is a survivor of an abusive relationship and how things she loved got twisted by said abuser.
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    Yeah. Definitely not like this. We will never be free of a character made to be pathetic and antagonistic and lacking foil function?
    Jcogginsa said:
    1. The portal network is a much less complex thing to come up with, and doesn't need to last forever
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    Than a larger landmass?
    excalibur2008 said:
    Bending the space/time continuum is less complicated than what sounds like just an upgraded version of all of Atlas' existing stuff?
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    This guy gets it
    buli-buli said:
    have no doubt Ironwood honestly planned on saving the world. But it would have been a world where he ruled. For everyone else's good.
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    Ya know i think this is fair enough.
    Just wish that more emphasized than...what got.
    daedalus725 said:
    I was saying yesterday that ironwood has main character syndrome
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    Here thing though..why don't the main characters?
     
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    Darmani said:
    Uhm. Distraction?
    Yeah you are right. I don't care for that story so want thestory ofthe now restored/good activist confronting the realproblem their way.

    So the point ws adam corrupting and abusing women and or their goals. Not what those goals and actions were. Even now with him gone?
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    I don't... I don't understand you.

    Darmani said:
    Just wish that more emphasized than...what got.
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    I am thinking you missed their point if you wanted that, Ironwood's whole character song was about the egotism of his attitude about 'saving the world' and being a 'hero' people like that aren't actually, you know, good.
     
    Zam said:
    don't understand you.
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    I did not like what or how, not sure mysrlf which change be more pleasing, Adam's story told.
    But if done wish to focus on the restored blake taking those challenges Adam overwrote. The good faunus fighter of injustice.

    Understand?
     
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    Pugman said:
    Though to be fair I doubt anyone could plan for River Styxx, Soylent Green, and Flying Moby Dick
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    While it might be understandable to not have plans for those specific things, there seemed to be no plan in place for a large scale grimm incursion, or general breach of Atlas's outer defenses, and that is dumb, especially after Beacon and Haven. Ironwood runs the military solo, which is an absolute pants way to run a military. It boggles the mind that James could be so hard charging about taking the fight to Salem but never even consider that she might take the fight to him with something more than her infiltrators.

    Atlas may be based off of the US to a degree, but it sure is hell isn't an expy of the US, especially not with its military. There appears to be no civilian oversight, no high command analogous to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, no serious planning for contingencies, and no initiative.

    Also, on a bit of tangent here, but why in the fuck was Atlas developing a nuclear weapon (or at least, dust equivalent. Though for all we know it might have been an actual, factual nuclear weapon)? Who was that intended to be used against? We see that Atlas never seriously considered the possibility of a truly massed, organized grimm attack. That wasn't a tactical weapon. So who the fuck was James planning to nuke?
     
    Erinyes said:
    So who the fuck was James planning to nuke?
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    ... Salem? The Grimm?

    I mean, it's pretty obvious that up until recently, he thought Salem could be killed and if the nuke is comparable to the cane nuke (Ironwood legit thought his nuke went off), then it can definitely take out an army of Grimm. Possibly in an "only way to be sure" solution befitting of a tough man making tough choices.
     
    Darmani said:
    Hmmm. What think i am saying or which part really confuses?
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    Um... All of it, everything from sentence structure to ideas I guess.

    Erinyes said:
    While it might be understandable to not have plans for those specific things, there seemed to be no plan in place for a large scale grimm incursion, or general breach of Atlas's outer defenses, and that is dumb, especially after Beacon and Haven. Ironwood runs the military solo, which is an absolute pants way to run a military. It boggles the mind that James could be so hard charging about taking the fight to Salem but never even consider that she might take the fight to him with something more than her infiltrators.

    Atlas may be based off of the US to a degree, but it sure is hell isn't an expy of the US, especially not with its military. There appears to be no civilian oversight, no high command analogous to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, no serious planning for contingencies, and no initiative.

    Also, on a bit of tangent here, but why in the fuck was Atlas developing a nuclear weapon (or at least, dust equivalent. Though for all we know it might have been an actual, factual nuclear weapon)? Who was that intended to be used against? We see that Atlas never seriously considered the possibility of a truly massed, organized grimm attack. That wasn't a tactical weapon. So who the fuck was James planning to nuke?
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    I mean I feel that's very much reflective of Atlas's general arrogance, they've been insulated from any real Grimm threat for 80 years, its not good that things slacked, but its not surprising either, especially with someone with Ironwood's ego and lack of spy craft skills in charge of defense.

    Plus, I would keep in mind that while the US loves to dump money into its army (Though not care for its troops) its not actually that well regarded for competence world wide outside of having the biggest/most guns and that's not even getting into the fact the US is awful when it comes to internal disaster management.

    I'm pretty sure that whole thing was probably thrown together in fairly short order, or it might have been something Ironwood intended to use on Salem.
     
    Erinyes said:
    So who the fuck was James planning to nuke?
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    It may well have been a kill switch for Amity - restore global communication, centralize it, and make sure no one else can ever subvert your control over it.

    Alternatively, it may have been leverage, over and above fear of Salem and the grimm, for other states to accept occupation.
     
    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    It may well have been a kill switch for Amity - restore global communication, centralize it, and make sure no one else can ever subvert your control over it.
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    Yeah, no. He may be militaristic but he's not a warmonger towards his fellow man. Salem was always his enemy.

    The intent with Amity was to reestablish global comms since poor communication causes division and that's what Salem wants.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Yeah, no. He may be militaristic but he's not a warmonger towards his fellow man. Salem was always his enemy.

    The intent with Amity was to reestablish global comms since poor communication causes division and that's what Salem wants.
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    Dude was ready to nuke his own city to force them to give him Penny back, he's totally a warmonger even towards his fellow man. Or well, you could argue that it didn't saw the people of Mantle as his "fellow men", in which case you're right.
     
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