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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • erttheking said:
    Until we get evidence that huge portions of the population are left behind, like anyone mentioning it or us seeing anyone left behind (we didn't) I'm inclined to believe that wasn't anyone's intention on the writing staff.
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    The fact that the only models we see are either Mantle civilians or Atlas civilians and not the military does leave that implication...
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The fact that the only models we see are either Mantle civilians or Atlas civilians and not the military does leave that implication...
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    The military had other ways to get out, namely their still primarily intact air fleet. We didn't see any Atlas soldiers in the evac point, we didn't see any of them (or anyone in general) dying when Atlas fe.
     
    Zam said:
    OK at this point the ignoring of established rules has gone from potentially just ignorance to full on ignoring the canon established rules so I am done wasting my time engaging with it and instead have Bigger better, stronger Bees content.

    View: https://citadelofmythoughts.tumblr.com/post/682473183292620800/mercuryj15-artbyblastweave-also-as-a
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    I was pretty confused myself because I got the impression from the discourse and fan stuff that Yang and Blake had actually gotten together. And then I got to the end and they had gone dancing one time and touched foreheads.
     
    Are we trying to defend James' shitty plan again?

    Flying away with Atlas has only three possible outcomes. In order from best to worst (and lest likely to most likely):

    1. The heroes find a way to escape and somehow manage to find a way to defeat Salem and save the world while Atlas is fucked off into the sky, making James Ironwood a worthless coward who did nothing for the world.
    2. Atlas remains safe for an indeterminate period of time until the realities of entropy and no access to additional resources lead to a breakdown of a critical system leading to a loss heat or of ability to contain a pressurized atmosphere, resulting in the death of everyone by hypothermia or hypoxia. Salem destroys all of humanity in the meantime. Human existence is prolonged for maybe a 100 years. Maybe less, maybe a bit more. We don't know how long it will take to run out of spares but it will happen.
    3. Turns out Salem is perfectly capable of finding a way to breach Space!Atlas and James gets his shit wrecked anyway.

    There is no possible outcome that makes James' plan workable in the long-term. It was a shit plan in all respects - feasibility, practicality, operationally, strategically, tactically, and devoid of morality.

    Will you make the right choice in that moment?
    Will you stand and be brave or be broken?

    EDIT: Shit, I forgot about fuel. How long is Atlas going to be able to power those shields without incoming dust shipments from the surface? Forget freezing to death. Everyone is going to suffocate long before spare parts ever become a problem.
     
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    Erinyes said:
    Are we trying to defend James' shitty plan again?

    Flying away with Atlas has only three possible outcomes. In order from best to worst (and lest likely to most likely):

    1. The heroes find a way to escape and somehow manage to find a way to defeat Salem and save the world while Atlas is fucked off into the sky, making James Ironwood a worthless coward who did nothing for the world.
    2. Atlas remains safe for an indeterminate period of time until the realities of entropy and no access to additional resources lead to a breakdown of a critical system leading to a loss heat or of ability to contain a pressurized atmosphere, resulting in the death of everyone by hypothermia or hypoxia. Salem destroys all of humanity in the meantime. Human existence is prolonged for maybe a 100 years. Maybe less, maybe a bit more. We don't know how long it will take to run out of spares but it will happen.
    3. Turns out Salem is perfectly capable of finding a way to breach Space!Atlas and James gets his shit wrecked anyway.

    There is no possible outcome that makes James' plan workable in the long-term. It was a shit plan in all respects - feasibility, practicality, operationally, strategically, tactically, and devoid of morality.

    Will you make the right choice in that moment?
    Will you stand and be brave or be broken?

    EDIT: Shit, I forgot about fuel. How long is Atlas going to be able to power those shields without incoming dust shipments from the surface? Forget freezing to death. Everyone is going to suffocate long before spare parts ever become a problem.
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    They literally have an object that can break conservation of energy and create matter ex nihilo. 2 is not an actual concern. If 1 doesn't happen it will be 3 because Salem will absolutely build a Tower of Babel out of Grimm if she has to. But it would take her a pretty long time so it's an improvement on the other plan they dismissed that I thought was actually pretty good of just tossing the Lamp down some random preferably not already Grimm infested well, or better yet burying it in some random spot in the middle of nowhere.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    They literally have an object that can break conservation of energy and create matter ex nihilo. 2 is not an actual concern. If 1 doesn't happen it will be 3 because Salem will absolutely build a Tower of Babel out of Grimm if she has to. But it would take her a pretty long time so it's an improvement on the other plan they dismissed that I thought was actually pretty good of just tossing the Lamp down some random preferably not already Grimm infested well, or better yet burying it in some random spot in the middle of nowhere.
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    Problem with that is that you'd have to plan out and make detailed blueprints of the entire system you're suggesting, while making sure it would cover literally every conceivable need that would have to be met, since you couldn't ever add or change things once you were done. And doing this all in the middle of an invasion.

    And no, you couldn't just take a blueprint of Atlas and scribble in some extra notes that say "Magic here, please."
     
    HamHamJ said:
    They literally have an object that can break conservation of energy and create matter ex nihilo. 2 is not an actual concern. If 1 doesn't happen it will be 3 because Salem will absolutely build a Tower of Babel out of Grimm if she has to. But it would take her a pretty long time so it's an improvement on the other plan they dismissed that I thought was actually pretty good of just tossing the Lamp down some random preferably not already Grimm infested well, or better yet burying it in some random spot in the middle of nowhere.
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    The Staff can't create infinite energy if it's keeping the city up and you need to describe the mechanics of how you're breaking entropy over your knee.

    Tossing a relic down a well, or burying it, doesn't work, because they naturally attack Grimm, so Salem will just dig it right back up.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    They literally have an object that can break conservation of energy and create matter ex nihilo. 2 is not an actual concern. If 1 doesn't happen it will be 3 because Salem will absolutely build a Tower of Babel out of Grimm if she has to. But it would take her a pretty long time so it's an improvement on the other plan they dismissed that I thought was actually pretty good of just tossing the Lamp down some random preferably not already Grimm infested well, or better yet burying it in some random spot in the middle of nowhere.
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    2 is a big concern because you have to know what your system looks like and how it will work. The Staff making the bridge to Vacuo worked because, while RWBY and co were improvising, they had a working model to reference. They didn't know how the liminal spaces of the Vaults worked, but they knew they could use them as an example for Ambrosius to work off of. He calls that out, saying they're either really smart or incredibly foolish, because since they didn't know how the Vaults worked, they also didn't know what problems to account for.
     
    Leingod said:
    Problem with that is that you'd have to plan out and make detailed blueprints of the entire system you're suggesting, while making sure it would cover literally every conceivable need that would have to be met, since you couldn't ever add or change things once you were done. And doing this all in the middle of an invasion.

    And no, you couldn't just take a blueprint of Atlas and scribble in some extra notes that say "Magic here, please."
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    Yes you can. We have literal proof in the episode that you can make requests like "Recycle the existing Atlas and remake it at the same location" and pretty strong implications that there is nothing stopping you from adding "and expand it with all this other stuff".
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Yes you can. We have literal proof in the episode that you can make requests like "Recycle the existing Atlas and remake it at the same location" and pretty strong implications that there is nothing stopping you from adding "and expand it with all this other stuff".
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    The thing stopping you is that you need to have the designs ready for whatever it is that you're going to add, and you need to predict every problem that could ever occur because remaking Atlas higher up means everyone on Atlas dies the next time the staff gets used.

    (And if Ironwood is the one doing this, he's also lost access to the key to the Vault, so he can't actually shut it)
     
    Also, James was making obviously bad decisions for irrational, illogical reasons literally from the start.

    Prior to seeing the chess piece Cinder left for him, he had ordered an evacuation of the population of Mantle onto Atlas. After seeing the chess piece, he abandons the plan to evacuate Mantle and instead wants to air-lift Atlas immediately, ostensibly under the logic that allowing refugees from Mantle into Atlas would be a security risk and Salem could sneak her agents into Atlas... Even though the chess piece means they're obviously already in Atlas - and able to waltz right into his office, no less. So that ship had clearly already sailed.

    Also, his sending Winter to go ice a dying old woman so he could open the Vault was literally exactly what Cinder wanted him to do, and it was only through the actions of Fria and Penny that Cinder didn't successfully get a second Maiden's powers and full access to the Staff of Creation right then and there. Ironwood's decisions came absurdly close to getting literally everybody in Mantle and Atlas killed because he played right into the villains' hands for like the third time in a row, but let's just sweep that right under the rug so we can instead shit on Team RWBY for trying to save the people Ironwood decided to write off as a lost cause for no actual reason except "Nah, fuck them, they're not worth the effort."

    EDIT: The chess piece thing is especially bad, because not once did he ask himself the obvious and critical question "Why did they go to the trouble of breaking into my office and leaving this here? Are they perhaps trying to manipulate my decision-making so I'll do their dirty work for them like I already know they've done before?"
     
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    Leingod said:
    Problem with that is that you'd have to plan out and make detailed blueprints of the entire system you're suggesting, while making sure it would cover literally every conceivable need that would have to be met, since you couldn't ever add or change things once you were done. And doing this all in the middle of an invasion.

    And no, you couldn't just take a blueprint of Atlas and scribble in some extra notes that say "Magic here, please."
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    You say that like Atlas doesn't have top scientists who can scribble up blueprints.

    The problem would be more that they can only make one thing at a time.
     
    Staff Notice: Just because you disagree with a user does not mean that your response is particularly mindful or civil. Please carefully consider how your posts can be taken in the future before posting.
    HamHamJ said:
    Yes you can. We have literal proof in the episode that you can make requests like "Recycle the existing Atlas and remake it at the same location" and pretty strong implications that there is nothing stopping you from adding "and expand it with all this other stuff".
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    Hey. Hey genius. There's a problem with that. You know what it is? You know what the 'effing problem is? Think real hard.

    If you do that then nothing is holding Atlas in the air. FFS, at least think this nonsense through before you spew it across the forum.
     
    Erinyes said:
    Hey. Hey genius. There's a problem with that. You know what it is? You know what the 'effing problem is? Think real hard.

    If you do that then nothing is holding Atlas in the air. FFS, at least think this nonsense through before you spew it across the forum.
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    This is obviously not true because you just include whatever system the staff originally created to float Atlas as part of the blueprint.
     
    Did you somehow miss that the body that Ambrosius made was next to Penny, not overlapping with her? Everyone would fall to their death at the same time that the new Atlas was falling, because a new Atlas is a separate thing from "making Atlas float."
     
    Erinyes said:
    Hey. Hey genius. There's a problem with that. You know what it is? You know what the 'effing problem is? Think real hard.

    If you do that then nothing is holding Atlas in the air. FFS, at least think this nonsense through before you spew it across the forum.
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    So you're going to design a machine that does the following: Keeps Atlas above altitudes at which the grimm can attain, maintains whole-city pressurization, maintains heat, perfectly recycles all water with no losses (because you're not getting more of that at high altitudes, manages soil degradation from extensive farming, supplies spare parts for farming equipment, produces all necessary medical supplies for an entire city, produces necessary fertilizers, and does all of this without the need for an input of some finite fuel source?

    No. Without outside input, at some point entropy wins and Atlas is gone. And no one has a blueprint for infinite fuel.
     
    Erinyes said:
    So you're going to design a machine that does the following: Keeps Atlas above altitudes at which the grimm can attain, maintains whole-city pressurization, maintains heat, perfectly recycles all water with no losses (because you're not getting more of that at high altitudes, manages soil degradation from extensive farming, supplies spare parts for farming equipment, produces all necessary medical supplies for an entire city, produces necessary fertilizers, and does all of this without the need for an input of some finite fuel source?

    No. Without outside input, at some point entropy wins and Atlas is gone. And no one has a blueprint for infinite fuel.
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    Not to mention all of it has to be designed under an immense time crunch
     
    Jcogginsa said:
    The portal network is a much less complex thing to come up with
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    Bending the space/time continuum is less complicated than what sounds like just an upgraded version of all of Atlas' existing stuff?

    CatOnTheWeb said:
    They had a fullyworking otherworld portal system on hand. They just had to say 'make this, but with doors all over Atlas/Mantle and another door in Vacuo.'
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    And if Atlas was missing any of the shit it needed to survive, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE FUCKING POINTING IT OUT TO SHOOT DOWN IRONWOOD'S PLAN. Since that's kind of an important thing, so no you don't "be subtle" about it.
     
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