RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Epsilon Rose · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
This is you just saying it's bad or it's illegal just because you don't like the idea. That's not how that works.

No, it's me saying you can't keep your line of argumentation strait and you need to fix that. You've argued both sides of this point now.

excalibur2008 said:
In other words you ignored what actually caused the Fall, aka the mass panic from someone getting ripped apart fallowed by Cinder ranting about the schools. Ironwood not being there doesn't ducking make that magically go away.

Ironwood's fleet wasn't there to stop the fall and you can't argue the fall would have happened in the same way if the things that led up to it, and the resources available to Cinder during it, were different.

excalibur2008 said:
Salem was already going to attack Atlas regardless of what Ironwood doing becuase she wanted Atlas off the board.

Ironwood's blockade had nothing to do with Salem wanting Atlas off the board, which is good because it wasn't able to stop that either. Similarly, my list of reasons why the blockade was bad had nothing to do with Salem's eventual attack.

You should try to respond to what people have actually written, not random other things.

excalibur2008 · Apr 26, 2022

Psyga315 said:
To be fair, the only reason Atlas was next was because RWBY was going there to ditch the Relic...

Actually it was more Ozpin going there and the belief he would talk Ironwood into not turtling up. They probably would have gone back to ignoring Atlas if they knew Ozpin had fucked off for who knows how long.

erttheking said:
Ok. Let me be perfectly blunt. If a general cutting the executive branch out of the equation and declaring martial law without anyone being able to act as a check and balance is "legal", then the nation in question is a military dictatorship in all but name. Because name a modern nation where this is the case and then narrow it down to nations where anyone here would actually want to live? Because sure, maybe that's how it works.

What the fuck does that have to do with either sending a fleet to Vale which nobody seemed to remotely imply was done without permission the Vale Council, or Ironwood recalling all of Atlas's forces which nobody really cared about that much.

Epsilon Rose said:
No, it's me saying you can't keep your line of argumentation strait and you need to fix that. You've argued both sides of this point now.

You are pretty much saying moving a military force into an allied country with likely said country's permission since you know that has to come up if he didn't have it is illegal despite how that isn't the fucking case. Also keep insisting that it is a bad idea despite its only affect on The Fall was five seconds of thinking they weren't screwed before they got hacked while ignoring that them being already screwed was why Ozpin told Ironwood to use his army.

And frankly you are trying to rewrite the damned show just to satisfy your Ironwood hate boner.

Epsilon Rose said:
Ironwood's fleet wasn't there to stop the fall and you can't argue the fall would have happened in the same way if the things that led up to it, and the resources available to Cinder during it, were different.

Yes it was. And trying to ignore the villains being good at adapting their plans is a shit argument.

Epsilon Rose said:
Ironwood's blockade had nothing to do with Salem wanting Atlas off the board, which is good because it wasn't able to stop that either. Similarly, my list of reasons why the blockade was bad had nothing to do with Salem's eventual attack.

Ironwood's blockade had to do with expecting people to initially take the whole there is a demon queen controlling the Grimm and she wants to kill everyone announcement not so well and wanted to keep things together while everyone went through the freak out. It also can Salem not paying attention to Atlas so Ironwood was free to work on fixing global communications without her trying to stop him.

Epsilon Rose · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
You are pretty much saying moving a military force into an allied country with likely said country's permission since you know that has to come up if he didn't have it is illegal despite how that isn't the fucking case. Also keep insisting that it is a bad idea despite its only affect on The Fall was five seconds of thinking they weren't screwed before they got hacked while ignoring that them being already screwed was why Ozpin told Ironwood to use his army.

You're the one who brought up legality, for some reason. I'm not sure why you keep harping on it, because it wasn't part of my argument. I already gave reasons for why it was a bad idea and you ignored all of them, in favor of making statements about the fall and legality.

excalibur2008 said:
Yes it was.

How could his fleet be there to stop the fall when they didn't know the fall was going to happen at that point.

excalibur2008 said:
Ironwood's blockade had to do with expecting people to initially take the whole there is a demon queen controlling the Grimm and she wants to kill everyone announcement not so well and wanted to keep things together while everyone went through the freak out. It also can Salem not paying attention to Atlas so Ironwood was free to work on fixing global communications without her trying to stop him.

How does blockading atlas help with people reacting to that announcement poorly and if he only wanted it for the after effects of his eventual announcement, why did he start the blockade more than a year before he could have ever made the announcement? How does blockading Atlas prevent Salem from paying attention to it?

You arguments do not make sense and do not support each other.

excalibur2008 · Apr 26, 2022

Epsilon Rose said:
You're the one who brought up legality, for some reason. I'm not sure why you keep harping on it, because it wasn't part of my argument. I already gave reasons for why it was a bad idea and you ignored all of them, in favor of making statements about the fall and legality.

Because the military is told they can ignore illegal orders not orders they think are dumb.

Epsilon Rose said:
How could his fleet be there to stop the fall when they didn't know the fall was going to happen at that point.

He sent the fleet because Qrow sent everyone the Salem is up to major shit message at the end of Volume 1. Why does everyone forget that?

Epsilon Rose said:
How does blockading atlas help with people reacting to that announcement poorly and if he only wanted it for the after effects of his eventual announcement, why did he start the blockade more than a year before he could have ever made the announcement? How does blockading Atlas prevent Salem from paying attention to it?

You arguments do not make sense and do not support each other.

1) To have most of the military on hand to break up riots, 2) Becuase it was going to take a while to upgrade Amity, 3) Because Salem wanted Atlas off the board, and frankly playing along with what Salem wants while working against her seems like a good idea seeing as she only adjusts her plans when something doesn't seem to be going her way.

Psyga315 · Apr 26, 2022

Epsilon Rose said:
How does blockading atlas help with people reacting to that announcement poorly and if he only wanted it for the after effects of his eventual announcement, why did he start the blockade more than a year before he could have ever made the announcement?

It's almost like the reason was said in the actual show.

Qrow: James... you don't need the entire military for this.

Ironwood: I will for the next part, where I finally tell the people about Salem.

Qrow: Huh, so that's why you withdrew your troops, to handle the panic that would break out in Atlas.

Ironwood: Yes, panic is inevitable, and panic brings Grimm. But I believe we are ready. Once Atlas has come to grips with the fight ahead, I'll use Amity Tower to spread the message to all of Remnant.

Weiss: But everything will fall apart. Grimm will be everywhere!

Winter: You're right, but Atlas is willing and prepared to assist.

Ironwood: Trying to hide the truth from the world will eventually kill us all.

excalibur2008 said:
He sent the fleet because Qrow sent everyone the Salem is up to major shit message at the end of Volume 1. Why does everyone forget that?

There's a reason why people meme the idea that no one really watches or remembers the previous Volumes to RWBY.

LordYam · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
So again didn't come up, so not an actual thing. You know what with the conflict being about saving a few versus trying to save everyone.

But hey let's ignore that and claim the writers expected the audience to be a bunch of turbo nerds that put more thought into the situation than really the majority of any writers would.

Seriously when in the fucking hell has any writer ever gone that deep into logistics and resource management?

They were actively evacuating Mantle when Ironwood went off the deep end. Salem hadn't show up yet. They could have EASILY finished the evacuation before she showed up, or at least been most of the way there. Ruby also came up with two perfectly good plans over the course of vol 8.....both of which Ironwood ruined out of spite.

If anyone HAD tried to raise objections Ironwood would have shot them.....which he did in at least two cases. Ironwood wasn't a hard man doing the hard thing....he was a gutless coward who chose the easy option and doomed his nation in the process.

Off topic, here was another user's proposal of how they would have handled Cinder's backstory

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASD7iAKNkY8&t=500s

erttheking · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
What the fuck does that have to do with either sending a fleet to Vale which nobody seemed to remotely imply was done without permission the Vale Council, or Ironwood recalling all of Atlas's forces which nobody really cared about that much.

I'm more concerned with your "it's not illegal if the government does it" tripe, which is a massive, self serving, logical fallacy of an argument, IE, appeal to authority.

Also the implication that no one had a problem with what he did was because they were scared and letting him do what he wanted. IE, he was running roughshod around the executive branch.

Psyga315 · Apr 26, 2022

LordYam said:
They were actively evacuating Mantle when Ironwood went off the deep end. Salem hadn't show up yet. They could have EASILY finished the evacuation before she showed up, or at least been most of the way there. Ruby also came up with two perfectly good plans over the course of vol 8.....both of which Ironwood ruined out of spite.

1. Would they though? The time between Ironwood making the decision and Salem's arrival didn't seem to be long and the only reason Salem waited to attack was because she was waiting for a river that is miles away from Mantle, far from where they would be focused on.

At most, they have about a day and any moment they waste with the evac is another moment Salem has to prep. And then after they move everyone to Atlas... Then what? No one really asked that question before.

They basically moved more fish into the barrel for Salem to machine gun.

2) What plans? Ruby only thought to inform the rest of the world and as we see in the show, no one was coming. Possibly because they're too busy putting out the mass panic Ruby caused but that's speculation.

Whitley came up with the plan to use the SDC ships. The only other evac plan was the one to Vacuo, and that was ruined because of Cinder.

LordYam · Apr 26, 2022

1.) Easy; they finish the evacuation THAN maybe Ironwood's plan is doable. Or they just evacuate to Vacuo early and accept that the city is doomed.

The ships would have also worked as well so Ironwood still deserves blame for that one. He was willing to let 90% of the population burn

Basically the major changes are as follows

1.) Cinder's from Mantle not Atlas, and her own parents are the ones who sold her (mirroring how in the great depression people might sell their kids, and because the writer felt that Cinder's own parents betraying her would make a much harsher impact.)
2.) Cinder has three friends who are also servants (since Madame would need more than a single malnourished ten year old). Each of them is modeled after one of Cinderella's friends/elements of the tale. One of them is modeled after the crystal slippers, one of them is modeled after the pumpkin carriage/Cinderella's mice friends, and one's modeled after the willow tree/Cinderella's bird friends. Two of the friends are Faunus as well, to tie in the whole racial stuff in a way that isn't TOO obtrusive
3.) Madame generally treats her own daughters like shit too, to show the whole cycle of abuse thing. Basically rich people like their brats to take the huntsman exam so they can brag about how they COULD have been Huntsmen. However the daughters didn't HAVE semblances, while the 4 girls did. This increased Madame's abuse (because how DARE a bunch of servants have semblances), and the daughters (not wanting to admit their mom was just an abusive bitch) took the resentment out on them.
4.) Rhodes was initially hired to be a Huntsman tutor for the daughters, but also secretly mentored the servants as well. The girls try to apply for the academy, but because Madame bribes the headmaster they get rejected. Cinder decides to crash the test and believes that if the girls do really well than the headmaster will reconsider (they don't know about the bribery and lets be honest if this was Ozpin or Theo it probably would have worked.)
5.) The girls actually do pretty well (out of 15 teams they come in 4th place), while Madame's daughters barely pass. Unfortunately the Headmaster has them dragged off and arrested, while Rhodes is too cowardly to do anything.
6.) Unfortunately, Madame still feels badly humiliated since word got out, and the fact that they did BETTER than her own kids is a major kick in the teeth. This triggers the confrontation we get in canon; one of Cinder's friends (Iradessa) who embodies the glass slippers, is beaten to death by one of the daughters, which is when shit escalates. Madame tries to bribe Cinder into blaming her friends for Iradessa's death....Cinder decides nope and slaughters all three of them.
7.) Rhodes comes and arrests them. At this point either a.) the other two either get killed by the police with him or b.) after the fight with Cinder they flee because they realize what Cinder is becoming.

Other changes: Hazel was one of the people who recruits Cinder, which gives him additional redemption when he saves Emerald (since Cinder brought Emerald in). The four friends are modeled in some way after Mercury Emerald and others. This implies in a twisted way that Cinder was trying to recreate what she lost. It also adds more details to why Cinder detests Ruby. Not only did Ruby have what seems to be innate powers, she also got the lucky breaks Cinder never did. Eventually the scandal with the old headmaster taking bribes got out and the man was disgraced. This was one of the reasons Ozpin thought James might be better; he figured that since James had integrity he wouldn't play into the collusion of the Atlas elites.

excalibur2008 · Apr 26, 2022

LordYam said:
They were actively evacuating Mantle when Ironwood went off the deep end. Salem hadn't show up yet. They could have EASILY finished the evacuation before she showed up, or at least been most of the way there. Ruby also came up with two perfectly good plans over the course of vol 8.....both of which Ironwood ruined out of spite.

Only in the hindsight of Salem sitting on her ass for hours before attacking.

Ruby's first plan pretty much did everything she wanted, Amity sent out the distress call, the military dough Salem. it failed because it needed help to show up and it didn't.

The second plan just makes Ruby make the same ignore Salem will respawn on Atlas mistake Ironwood was doing as part of him going nuts. Itwas also more Whitley's plan.

Her actual second plan fell apart because Cinder showed up since Ironwood would have stayed in jail without Watts and never actually got anywhere to mess with it.

If anyone HAD tried to raise objections Ironwood would have shot them.....which he did in at least two cases. Ironwood wasn't a hard man doing the hard thing....he was a gutless coward who chose the easy option and doomed his nation in the process.

Still dancing around the fact that if a show doesn't bring up a particular reason for something to be a bad idea IN UNIVERSE it's not actually a factor.

erttheking said:
I'm more concerned with your "it's not illegal if the government does it" tripe, which is a massive, self serving, logical fallacy of an argument, IE, appeal to authority.

Says the guy arguing military alliances are illegal or hell more idiotically that COVID lockdowns were illegal. Because it's only illegal if Ironwood just did that on his own and it was pretty much implied that the Council had been going a long with him since either he got outvoted or he got deadlocked.

erttheking · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
Says the guy arguing military alliances are illegal or hell more idiotically that COVID lockdowns were illegal.

Yeah can you do me a favor and stop getting straw everywhere?

Seriously, that argument right there is fucking disgusting.

LordYam · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
Only in the hindsight of Salem sitting on her ass for hours before attacking.

Ruby's first plan pretty much did everything she wanted, Amity sent out the distress call, the military dough Salem. it failed because it needed help to show up and it didn't.

The second plan just makes Ruby make the same ignore Salem will respawn on Atlas mistake Ironwood was doing as part of him going nuts. Itwas also more Whitley's plan.

Her actual second plan fell apart because Cinder showed up since Ironwood would have stayed in jail without Watts and never actually got anywhere to mess with it.

Still dancing around the fact that if a show doesn't bring up a particular reason for something to be a bad idea IN UNIVERSE it's not actually a factor.

Says the guy arguing military alliances are illegal or hell more idiotically that COVID lockdowns were illegal. Because it's only illegal if Ironwood just did that on his own and it was pretty much implied that the Council had been going a long with him since either he got outvoted or he got deadlocked.

Considering we do see ironwood shoot people it was brought up. And he still ruined the ship plan so no. He's still a gutless coward and he bares the most blame for atlas fall.

Ruby's reluctance to tell him earlier was in part to his dictatorial actions so again he deserved every bit of flak he gets.

Epsilon Rose · Apr 26, 2022

Psyga315 said:
It's almost like the reason was said in the actual show.

There's a reason why people meme the idea that no one really watches or remembers the previous Volumes to RWBY.

No part of that excuse explains why he needed to draw the military back well before he made the announcement, nor does it explain why he needed the military to blockade Atlas while waiting to make the announcement.

LordYam · Apr 26, 2022

HamHamJ said:
Claiming that Ironwood's plan wouldn't have saved everyone in Atlas is a fairly spurious counterargument.

No it's legit. No one from mantle would have survived with ironwood whereas Ruby saved some. Fewer died thanks to Ruby

Psyga315 · Apr 26, 2022

LordYam said:
he bares the most blame for atlas fall.

Pretty sure a majority of the fall was due to Salem, you know, invading Atlas. Ruby using the staff too.

Epsilon Rose said:
No part of that excuse explains why he needed to draw the military back well before he made the announcement, nor does it explain why he needed the military to blockade Atlas while waiting to make the announcement.

That too is explained in the show.

Ironwood: That's exactly what I'm doing. Our people need protection. By this time next week, the Kingdom of Atlas will be officially closing its borders. No one in; no one out. Without the council's permission.

excalibur2008 · Apr 26, 2022

erttheking said:
Yeah can you do me a favor and stop getting straw everywhere?

The counter argument was that just because a government signs off on it doesn't mean it's legal on things that are only illegal if a military does it without said government's okay which someone would have brought up if it wasn't

And no Cinder claiming it as part of her scare everyone speech doesn't count unless you also believe Ozpin actually encourage Pyrrha to kill Penny under some I saying life that wining the Vytle tournament would save his job. Again thing people seem to overlook.

LordYam said:
No it's legit.

It's ignoring the only stated reasons people were against the plan for head canon.

erttheking · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
The counter argument was that just

No, I don't care, I don't fucking care. You wanna accuse me of saying COVID lockdowns are illegal and then try to defend it as you making a valid point because "well technically-" and not like it was you putting words in my mouth in the most bad faith and ripped from the headlines way?

No. Fuck that.

excalibur2008 · Apr 26, 2022

erttheking said:
No, I don't care, I don't fucking care. You wanna accuse me of saying COVID lockdowns are illegal and then try to defend it as you making a valid point because "well technically-" and not like it was you putting words in my mouth in the most bad faith and ripped from the headlines way?

No. Fuck that.

Alright then what is illegal about Atlas recalling its military, cutting trade, and locking down its borders? Because that's what they did and it's clear the Council went along with it.

LordYam · Apr 26, 2022

excalibur2008 said:
Alright then what is illegal about Atlas recalling its military, cutting trade, and locking down its borders? Because that's what they did and it's clear the Council went along with it.

Even if it's not illegal it was highly stupid and impractical. Bringing up vaccine mandates is a cheap gotcha designed to prop up your argument

excalibur2008 · Apr 26, 2022

LordYam said:
Even if it's not illegal it was highly stupid and impractical. Bringing up vaccine mandates is a cheap gotcha designed to prop up your argument

I'm talking about the travel restrictions not the vaccine mandates.

You know since the argument is about closed borders.

Zam · Apr 26, 2022

Psyga315 said:
That too is explained in the show.

Ironwood: That's exactly what I'm doing. Our people need protection. By this time next week, the Kingdom of Atlas will be officially closing its borders. No one in; no one out. Without the council's permission.

I love how "Our people" doesn't include Mantle and that somehow Ironwood blatantly overriding the democratic process and then threatening Jac with his impending dictatorship is somehow being framed as a good thing by you rather than the massive villain foreshadowing it actually was.

erttheking said:
No, I don't care, I don't fucking care.

While I agree with the sentiment, its obvious you are being trolled into losing your temper so you can be reported and booted from the thread.

Psyga315 · Apr 26, 2022

Zam said:
I love how "Our people" doesn't include Mantle and that somehow Ironwood blatantly overriding the democratic process and then threatening Jac with his impending dictatorship is somehow being framed as a good thing by you rather than the massive villain foreshadowing it actually was

I love how you automatically assumed I was framing it as a good thing rather than noticing what I was actually saying where I was pointing out that the reason was stated outright in the show.

Zam · Apr 26, 2022

Psyga315 said:
I love how you automatically assumed I was framing it as a good thing rather than noticing what I was actually saying where I was pointing out that the reason was stated outright in the show.

This is you:

Psyga315 said:
That too is explained in the show.

Justifying Ironwood's actions via the quote provided.

Psyga315 · Apr 26, 2022

Zam said:
Justifying Ironwood's actions via the quote provided

I said that the show explained why he needed the military to blockade Atlas, not justifying it. There's a difference.

Lazurman · Apr 26, 2022

Zam said:
I love how

Psyga315 said:
I love how

I'm not going to lie and say I love this. In fact, I hate this. It's the same damned people arguing over the same damned topic for over a year after Volume 8 concluded. Ain't fuckin' nobody gonna change their minds by this point if they haven't already. Not with the same damned arguments spun into a thousand slightly different permutations. It's stinking up the thread and putting me in a foul mood just looking at it.

I love the show, but RWBY discourse is a fucking cesspit, and I think I'm rather done with it.

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Good Civ Inspector

The King of Unrest

The King of Unrest

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

The King of Unrest

Banned Forever

Banned Forever

This is fine.