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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    Gee, its almost like a guy who works for the humans that got one of her lieutenants to engage in a mass terror attack that killed thousands of civilians is not someone she wants knowing the location of their secret base of operations.

    Seriously, the idea Sienna hated Hazel on the principle of being human alone rather than cos he was an outsider to the organization in the nerve center of the WF's operation, whom works for the people who helped Adam do the Attack on Beacon just comes off as trying to do a shitty read on her character that ignores all context on purpose.
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    Sienna - "You brought a Human to this location?" And "This is grounds for execution."
    Look, I know you like Sienna and wanted more or her. But please do remember she is the one who lead the White Fang into it's more violet approach. She wanted Humans to "fear" faunus because to her that is how they will get "respect". For all of Siennas few moments of screen time it is clear she dislikes humans. Not enough to want to fight humanity in some big war, but she sure as hell is not keen on working with them.
    I am sure that, at least on a first meeting Sienna would likely not want to talk with any Schnee, but I will at least admit that with enough time Sienna would likely be able to put her hate aside like Ilia did. She wants humanity to fear the faunus, but she is clearly not cold and heartless so she has a chance at change if she hadn't been shanked by goat boi. (FUCK YOU GOAT BOI)
     
    From a purely strategic point of view the whole breakdown between Ironwood and team RWBY is very dumb. The rather obvious compromise is to continue evacuations until the last possible moment and then take off. At that point Ironwood's plan absolutely can work because the staff can be used to make Atlas arbitrarily large as necessary to support whatever population you have, their army of engineers just needs to draw up a blueprint. Or after a short suborbital hop you can just land in Mistral or Vacuo.

    It becomes even more dumb in retrospect when you know that Salem is going to spend several hours just hanging out not doing anything, and you have a whole fleet of ships available that you can use to finish the evacuation easily.

    And then you have a resolution that is incredibly contrived and wildly unrealistic (random example, you have hundreds of entry portals that feed into a single exit portal that does not appear to be particularly bigger than them).
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    And somewhere that supposedly has a Vault the defenders can open, so the staff could be stored, as opposed to leaving it out in the open like the lamp was.
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    Though the refugees are sent to a recently war torn country that ecology has completely collapsed with a xenophobic population that would probably not look kindly to the descendants of the people who made their whole nation the hellhole that it is now.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    Though the refugees are sent to a recently war torn country that ecology has completely collapsed with a xenophobic population that would probably not look kindly to the descendants of the people who made their whole nation the hellhole that it is now.
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    True, but I'd class that as a medium to long term problem that can be dealt with after the immediate short term issues of being near Ironwood and Salem are resolved. :p
     
    Pugman said:
    Sienna - "You brought a Human to this location?" And "This is grounds for execution."
    Look, I know you like Sienna and wanted more or her. But please do remember she is the one who lead the White Fang into it's more violet approach. She wanted Humans to "fear" faunus because to her that is how they will get "respect". For all of Siennas few moments of screen time it is clear she dislikes humans. Not enough to want to fight humanity in some big war, but she sure as hell is not keen on working with them.
    I am sure that, at least on a first meeting Sienna would likely not want to talk with any Schnee, but I will at least admit that with enough time Sienna would likely be able to put her hate aside like Ilia did. She wants humanity to fear the faunus, but she is clearly not cold and heartless so she has a chance at change if she hadn't been shanked by goat boi. (FUCK YOU GOAT BOI)
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    Not to be blunt, but if we do reads on characters like that, it means I am meant to take Ironwood seriously when he claims he is doing the right thing over knowing its bullshit and cowardice talking.
    You do know I am aware of and entirely OK with that right? I'm not someone who thinks violence is inherently immoral or unjustified, so going "Sienna led the WF into violence" is like going "Sienna did this thing you like." Sienna literally outlines her modus operandi as "When humanity pushes us down, the White Fang pushes back" she's not interested in stoking fear in humanity as a general rule except as a tool to serve her political aims of protecting Faunus.

    HamHamJ said:
    From a purely strategic point of view the whole breakdown between Ironwood and team RWBY is very dumb. The rather obvious compromise is to continue evacuations until the last possible moment and then take off. At that point Ironwood's plan absolutely can work because the staff can be used to make Atlas arbitrarily large as necessary to support whatever population you have, their army of engineers just needs to draw up a blueprint. Or after a short suborbital hop you can just land in Mistral or Vacuo.

    It becomes even more dumb in retrospect when you know that Salem is going to spend several hours just hanging out not doing anything, and you have a whole fleet of ships available that you can use to finish the evacuation easily.

    And then you have a resolution that is incredibly contrived and wildly unrealistic (random example, you have hundreds of entry portals that feed into a single exit portal that does not appear to be particularly bigger than them).
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    This is reaching for several reasons:
    1: Yes people (Ironwood) don't always make great decisions when panicking and paranoid, that's not dumb writing its just how people are, or have you not seen people wholly aware of what Covid refusing to wear masks while also panic buying supplies?
    2: The staff can in fact not be used to do that because the staff is being used to fly Atlas and Ironwood himself made it clear his intent was not to go elsewhere and regroup, so don't put word sin his mouth to make him look better.
    3: Salem sat on the periphery for awhile because Atlas has giant shields and lots of battleships, so it makes more sense to just wait. forcing them into a siege mentality where they can't rest, always awaiting an attack as she summons up her barrier breaking lake, which takes time.
    4: I literally don't even understand what your complain about the doorways is.
     
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    Zam said:
    2: The staff can in fact not be used to do that because the staff is being used to fly Atlas and Ironwood himself made it clear his intent was not to go elsewhere and regroup, so don't put word sin his mouth to make him look better.
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    It absolutely can. Given how the whole Penny wish worked, saying "we want you to build an exact copy of Atlas at it's current location but also with another couple thousand acres of farm land added on and also make this new and improved Atlas also fly" would absolutely be a valid wish. And at that point you now have plenty of time to calmly debate the merits of fucking off to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism.

    4: I literally don't even understand what your complain about the doorways is.
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    If 100 people evacuate through 100 doorways in 10 mins, and then they need to exit through a doorway that is also wide enough to accomodate 100 people in 10 minutes, it will take over 16 hours for everyone to exit to Vacuo. And I just checked an while the exit is larger, it's mostly just taller. It looks like it could be at most twice as wide as the entrances.

    ‐‐------

    The show is clearly meaning to claim that team RWBY managed to save the vast majority of people in Mantle and Atlas. What it tells us and shows us really stretches suspension of disbelief as to that being possible. And that's not even considering questions like what happened to the army, because I don't remember seeing any large groups of soldiers in the portal realm scenes or say Team FNKI. Or the basic question of how many people died after the Grimm landed on Atlas and before the evacuation. Depending on the answers to those questions it is not difficult to suppose that Team RWBY'S actions ended up killing more people than abandoning Mantle would have.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    It absolutely can. Given how the whole Penny wish worked, saying "we want you to build an exact copy of Atlas at it's current location but also with another couple thousand acres of farm land added on and also make this new and improved Atlas also fly" would absolutely be a valid wish. And at that point you now have plenty of time to calmly debate the merits of fucking off to the one place that hasn't been corrupted by capitalism.
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    Nice work glossing over my other points but that's also not how the Penny creation worked. Penny's creation worked by creating a new robotic Penny out of all her existing material parts but leaving behind anything else. New Penny was a consequence of the former creation, not actually a creation or she'd have faded with the robot Penny.

    HamHamJ said:
    If 100 people evacuate through 100 doorways in 10 mins, and then they need to exit through a doorway that is also wide enough to accomodate 100 people in 10 minutes, it will take over 16 hours for everyone to exit to Vacuo. And I just checked an while the exit is larger, it's mostly just taller. It looks like it could be at most twice as wide as the entrances.
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    (Oo) I'll be frank when I say I don't trust your math at all and think you're reaching.
    HamHamJ said:
    The show is clearly meaning to claim that team RWBY managed to save the vast majority of people in Mantle and Atlas.

    What it tells us and shows us really stretches suspension of disbelief as to that being possible. And that's not even considering questions like what happened to the army, because I don't remember seeing any large groups of soldiers in the portal realm scenes or say Team FNKI. Or the basic question of how many people died after the Grimm landed on Atlas and before the evacuation. Depending on the answers to those questions it is not difficult to suppose that Team RWBY'S actions ended up killing more people than abandoning Mantle would have.
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    Oh so you do acknowledge that fact as reality, you're just choosing to ignore and maliciously misinterpret what's taking place on screen because you hate the show/characters cos it sure as hell didn't stretch my suspension of disbelief.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Claiming that Ironwood's plan wouldn't have saved everyone in Atlas is a fairly spurious counterargument.
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    No, it's not.

    Team RWBY went into their request having put considerable thought and planning into it, and they still wound up with poor wording holding them back.

    Ironwood was in a deeply irrational and impulsive state. So much so that he thought it was a good idea to let one of Salem's Agents hack Penny, thereby giving Salem's faction control over the key to the vault. I see no reason to believe he'd approach that request with even a fraction of the planning that Team RWBY put into it. And since Ambrosius creating something new will take away the thing that's currently keeping Atlas afloat, I see a very high likelyhood that Ironwood trying will just result in Atlas falling anyway.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Not that he wouldn't have known. {glares at Ruby}
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    Given how poorly he was holding himself together when they showed up I doubt telling him earlier would have done any more to help once they disagreed with him.
    Zam said:
    Like for one, the word thousands is being used here again which could either indicate its just being used as a place holders to convey "Big numbers" or could indicate that when Oscar said millions he was referring to the rest of the world which makes more sense contextually anyway.
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    Which speaks more of how few people there may really be in Remnant.
    HamHamJ said:
    From a purely strategic point of view the whole breakdown between Ironwood and team RWBY is very dumb. The rather obvious compromise is to continue evacuations until the last possible moment and then take off. At that point Ironwood's plan absolutely can work because the staff can be used to make Atlas arbitrarily large as necessary to support whatever population you have, their army of engineers just needs to draw up a blueprint. Or after a short suborbital hop you can just land in Mistral or Vacuo.

    It becomes even more dumb in retrospect when you know that Salem is going to spend several hours just hanging out not doing anything, and you have a whole fleet of ships available that you can use to finish the evacuation easily.

    And then you have a resolution that is incredibly contrived and wildly unrealistic (random example, you have hundreds of entry portals that feed into a single exit portal that does not appear to be particularly bigger than them).
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    Ironwood made his decision, and refused anyone questioning him on any of it. He would take Atlas to orbit to protect the city he cared about, leaving the other half of the kingdom and the rest of the world to die out of his own fear.

    It is a bad strategy. His strategy. And others have pointed out other issues with this take.

    Also the end portal was a lot bigger than any of the individual entry portals, though the exact sizes seem more like a normal issue of scale in fiction.
     
    Jakobstj said:
    The closest we have for population numbers total is Oscar saying in v7 finale that Ironwood would be abandoning millions if he went through with his "fly Atlas to space" plan, but it's unclear if that's meant to be all of Remnant or just Mantle. But either way, the fact he specifically said millions kinda leads to the reasonable assumption there are at least a few hundred thousand in Mantle. Or were, thanks Team RWBY, you sure did save a few thousand.:V
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    Ok. My very simple take on the situation. A. Cinder isn't an objective census taker and we shouldn't use her word as evidence of mass deaths. And the scene where she says this has her lying to Salem already to make herself look better. B. Sometimes people use the term "thousands" to mean anything from thousands to tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands. IE a phrase I often hear is "thousands, if not millions." C. Until we get evidence that huge portions of the population are left behind, like anyone mentioning it or us seeing anyone left behind (we didn't) I'm inclined to believe that wasn't anyone's intention on the writing staff.
     
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