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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Matrix Dragon said:
    Sienna and Weiss meeting would have been fascinating
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    Sienna: So, I had a bunch of people in the SDC assassinated by the White Fang and am the reason your family was at war with us for years because I'm the one who chose violence when the peaceful approach almost got our previous leader killed. But we're just gonna ignore that because people want to prop me up at the Hero Queen that was Promised, even though I was heavily implied to be just as violent as Adam, just that I drew the line at attacking Academies.

    Weiss: Well... That's awkward... Wanna see me toss this racist in a trash can?

    Sienna: (Could she be one of my people?)
     
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    Matrix Dragon said:
    Plus, well, I really wish Blake had gotten the chance to talk to her as well, after finding her own way as opposed to the paths Sienna and Ghira had established.
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    Adam probably wanted to be the only authority figure in her life after he got her to leave her parents, so she'd have no idea how far he had fallen compared to the mainstream of the movement until he had gotten enough collaborators to become the new one.
     
    Not like he actually had that many collaborators though. Like, he claims to have the entire Vale Branch and "many" Mistrali Faunus but his coup is like less than twenty people involved and making a martyr was necessary to justify his attack on Haven. Meanwhile the Kuo Kuana faction was under the Albain's and also barely over twenty people. It was very much a case, seemingly, of an outsider extremist faction moving enough pieces and people into place to take control of the organization while lacking popular support, which is pretty standard for a coup.
     
    Once again a deliberately disingenuous argument that is also just like... Blatantly false? So I see no reason to retort. If one actually wants to argue something, opening with straight up lies is a pretty bad way to go.
     
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    Matrix Dragon said:
    Because Adam was an abusive asshole who used his own trauma as nothing more than an excuse to hurt people.
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    Okay, fine so why has the dealing with that become Blake's story or the foundation of her relationship with..damn everyone including her girlfriend?
    See my issue?
    How white fang became about adam, adam revealed as above, and when adam gone....blake doesn't have to deal with racism just..recover from adam
    Zam said:
    you know, that thing that happens in real life all the time. Plus, you know, the trauma of being groomed.
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    Well the groomed trauma seems new.
    And i thought sienna radicalized the fang? Why is Blake's story about adam,so much so...everything of her emerges out of or against him...

    and nowhe is gone. So that would be a great time to emphasize other aspects that he was supposedly smothering or corrupting, right
    Only...no, as illustrated with trashcan and her isolation in character
    So bothers me went through the storyline i not like to get blake to this state
    Its even...less cathartic than weiss getting mom to hand her the answers and brother prove useful after threatening him.
     
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    I don't.... I literally do not understand what is being said above me, at all. Not trying to be rude, I legitimately just do not understand what is being argued.
     
    Darmani said:
    I am not being disengenuous, neither is psyga. You don't mind implications of character or insight of debators. You just balk at unflattering ones of you
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    I outlined how psyga was being deliberately disingenuous and or outright lying in the most recent post on that topic.

    I was also not arguing that you were doing that I was saying quite explicitly that I have no understanding of what you are trying to say due to how you structure your sentences. its genuinely incompressible to me.
     
    Zam said:
    I don't.... I literally do not understand what is being said above me, at all. Not trying to be rude, I legitimately just do not understand what is being argued.
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    I editted post for clarity. Quote parts that confuse and state why, i will clarify. Thank you for your response
     
    Darmani said:
    Well the groomed trauma seems new.
    And i thought sienna radicalized the fang? Why is Blake's story about adam,so much so...everything of her emerges out of or against him...

    and nowhe is gone. So that would be a great time to emphasize other aspects that he was supposedly smothering or corrupting, right
    Only...no, as illustrated with trashcan and her isolation in character
    So bothers me went through the storyline i not like to get blake to this state
    Its even...less cathartic than weiss getting mom to hand her the answers and brother prove useful after threatening him.
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    Its not, that's just not the focus of the article and also this isn't a counter argument, its basically a distraction technique that sounds like a critique but has no actual meaning in regards to the aforementioned topic of people betraying or corrupting good organizations.
    Because Sienna was sensible and didn't kill civilians for shits and giggles like Adam was introduced doing in the Black Trailer, nor did she want to become dictator of the world or enslave humans, so there's not really any large conflict between her and Blake to explore and they lacked a personal bond.

    I have no understanding of any of the rest of this, the sentence structure just leaves me scratching my head in confusion.
     
    Zam said:
    Once again a deliberately disingenuous argument that is also just like... Blatantly false? So I see no reason to retort. If one actually wants to argue something, opening with straight up lies is a pretty bad way to go.
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    My point is that even if it's just "twenty or so people", that it might also be the case that they couldn't just include more people into the shot due to time/budget/tech constraints and so the "twenty or so people" could just be the indicator of more, sort of like how people argue there wasn't a single hole in Mantle's wall, but multiple and that we only got to see the one to indicate it.
     
    Scale is something I find very confusing in RWBY. Like, what was the population of Atlas and Mantle? To my untrained eye the throughput of the portal realm and the fact they can all just stand around in a big crowd in a dessert on the other side would put the amount that survived by the end at maybe a couple thousand? Is that true and if it is what percentage of the original population does that represent?
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Scale is something I find very confusing in RWBY. Like, what was the population of Atlas and Mantle? To my untrained eye the throughput of the portal realm and the fact they can all just stand around in a big crowd in a dessert on the other side would put the amount that survived by the end at maybe a couple thousand? Is that true and if it is what percentage of the original population does that represent?
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    There aren't any official numbers that Im aware of, but big modern cities have populations in high hundreds of thousands to low millions. If you take the show literally, less than 1 percent survived.

    Realistically, the writers probably didn't realize how big the population should have been, and how logistically impossible it would be to funnel that through rainbow road. Writers having no sense of scale is a meme for a reason.
     
    alright time to go over some stuff

    1 - Population
    For a show like RWBY you are almost never likely to get exact numbers by counting bodies on screen. So for the "thousands" that had portal time you are never going to be able to see that with your own eyes for various reasons. Time, budget, the action, etc. And as for Kuo Kuana being "crowded" as Sun said, do remember that this was V4, they had just switched to new stuff and were trying to keep the story going after Monty's passing.

    2 - Weiss Fang
    Not sure if Weiss would of even been able to have a moment with Sienna even if she lived/came back to life. She does not trust humans and was rather furious that Adam had let Hazel in, and despite the big guy being nothing but polite she would have none of it. So instead what I think we were actually robbed of was seeing Weiss (and the others) getting to actually meet Ilia and Blake's Parents.

    3 - Trashing Racists
    Blake did not stand up for herself there in part because she did not want to cause a scene and she is not the most confrontational person, at least that's my opinion. As for Weiss she can be rather headstrong and protective of her friends. Thus, she is the one to flip the drunk into the trash.

    4 - Adam
    His grooming of Blake is not exactly "new" but an aspect of their relationship that was revealed over time. Characters in RWBY tend to not have all their information put at upon their debut, and instead we peel back the layers as the story goes on.

    5 - Radicalized Fang
    Sienna is indeed the person who allowed more violent methods, but she still had a code and a limit. She only targeted business that mistreated faunus. Meanwhile Adam always wanted to go further. So in a way Sienna ended up feeding into Adam and the Fang got more radicalized over the last 4-5 years in universe.

    6 - Blake's story
    As I said the other day, Blake story does not revolve around racism or even the Fang. Instead her story is a survivor of an abusive relationship and how things she loved got twisted by said abuser. In the end, with the love and support of others, she was able to stand against her past and not only reclaim it but forge on and Move Forward with her life. Now she can be there for her team and others in mind and body and help use her experience to lift others up like she herself was by her friends.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    When did she say that? I know she says they saved thousands in the finale, but I don't recall her talking about the total population.
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    The closest we have for population numbers total is Oscar saying in v7 finale that Ironwood would be abandoning millions if he went through with his "fly Atlas to space" plan, but it's unclear if that's meant to be all of Remnant or just Mantle. But either way, the fact he specifically said millions kinda leads to the reasonable assumption there are at least a few hundred thousand in Mantle. Or were, thanks Team RWBY, you sure did save a few thousand.:V
     
    Jakobstj said:
    The closest we have for population numbers total is Oscar saying in v7 finale that Ironwood would be abandoning millions if he went through with his "fly Atlas to space" plan, but it's unclear if that's meant to be all of Remnant or just Mantle. But either way, the fact he specifically said millions kinda leads to the reasonable assumption there are at least a few hundred thousand in Mantle. Or were, thanks Team RWBY, you sure did save a few thousand.:V
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    As opposed to the zero that Ironwood would have saved
     
    Jakobstj said:
    The closest we have for population numbers total is Oscar saying in v7 finale that Ironwood would be abandoning millions if he went through with his "fly Atlas to space" plan, but it's unclear if that's meant to be all of Remnant or just Mantle. But either way, the fact he specifically said millions kinda leads to the reasonable assumption there are at least a few hundred thousand in Mantle. Or were, thanks Team RWBY, you sure did save a few thousand.:V
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    Yes, Thank you RWBY. You saved the lives Ironwood was leaving behind and more.
    Ironwood's plan to fly Atlas away would of only bought that city while leaving everyone left in Mantle to perish (to cold or to Grimm), while also tanking any trust the world could have in Atlas. Because if you can't be trusted to protect and save your own people, then how can anyone else trust you to save them?

    Jakobstj said:
    Ironwood would have saved the population of Atlas while leaving the people of Mantle to fend for themselves, yes. Meanwhile, Team RWBYs plan deliberately killed anyone who didn't get through the portals, by dropping the city.
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    They knew Atlas' gravity dust would only last so long, so they planned for that.
    Which is why they made all those portals and tried to get the word out about those portals.
     
    Pugman said:
    They knew Atlas' gravity dust would only last so long, so they planned for that.
    Which is why they made all those portals and tried to get the word out about those portals.
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    But why did they drop the city in the first place? There was no reason not to have Ambrosius set the city back to flying after fixing Penny. They chose to drop that city. Every single person who didn't make it out of Atlas and Mantle is someone that team RWBY killed, for zero benefit.
    Ironwood would have left people to die, while also protecting others and removing the thing Salem wanted from the area.
     
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    Jcogginsa said:
    As opposed to the zero that Ironwood would have saved
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    Nope. No people living at Atlas.


    Zero people that they've evacuated onto Atlas, no sir ee!
    I'm sorry, but that was an awful Anti-Ironwood take that blatantly ignores the fact that people were on Atlas, including some of the people that got evacuated from Mantle only to literally be fish in a barrel, either on Atlas when Salem invaded or in Vacuo where they'd either got picked off by Cinder, Grimm, the remnant of Salem's army once they move to Vacuo, or, Gods forbid, Salem getting Markiplier to make Tengai Shinsei.

    Jakobstj said:
    But why did they drop the city in the first place? There was no reason not to have Ambrosius set the city back to flying after fixing Penny. They chose to drop that city. Every single person who didn't make it out of Atlas and Mantle is someone that team RWBY killed, for zero benefit.
    Ironwood would have left people to die, while also protecting others and removing the thing Salem wanted from the area.
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    Probably because Salem compromised Atlas and Watts compromised Mantle.
     
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