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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • excalibur2008 said:
    Doesn't help that this feels like the start of Bake turning into a distressed damsel in need of saving.
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    Friend sticks up for you = damsel in distress in need of saving.

    Flawless logic.

    Dude, she was one of the ones who defied Ironwood in saying that staying was the right thing to do, how TF is that a damsel in distress?
    Darmani said:
    Yes well if that's the conclusion to Blake's story arc and her effect on the world? Not impressed
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    I have no idea where you're even getting this from. What does her character arc and her impact on the world have to do with this one conversation?
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Luckily, it's not, and her character and what she's been through played a major part in deciding to trust Robin with the truth just a few episodes later, then call out Ironwood later on, etc and so on
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    That's not how I remember it (Nora and Yang were more central to my mind), but I haven't watched V8 since it came out.

    But as far as character arc v. effect on the world goes, Blake trusting more people, and more wholeheartedly (which is definitely a thing in V8, particularly when it comes to Ruby), is well on the left side of that equation.
     
    There's something amusing about Blake vouching for Robyn given her past with terrorists masking as freedom fighters.

    Like, a cynical view would be "well, maybe this time the misguided people are just misguided!", with the irony being that she's mostly on the money.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    There's something amusing about Blake vouching for Robyn given her past with terrorists masking as freedom fighters.

    Like, a cynical view would be "well, maybe this time the misguided people are just misguided!", with the irony being that she's mostly on the money.
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    Robyn didn't start fighting until the alternatives had failed, and had offered to listen to an explanation if they could give one before, and also wasn't killing people, just stealing materials that were intended for Mantle but were diverted by Ironwood despite her friends pointing out the issues with his methods multiple times.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    Robyn didn't start fighting until the alternatives had failed, and had offered to listen to an explanation if they could give one before, and also wasn't killing people, just stealing materials that were intended for Mantle but were diverted by Ironwood despite her friends pointing out the issues with his methods multiple times.
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    Yeah, Ironwood was the one breaking the law then. It's part of why companies in Mantle were so willing to refuse to do business with the military until they actually did their dang jobs.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    There's something amusing about Blake vouching for Robyn given her past with terrorists masking as freedom fighters.

    Like, a cynical view would be "well, maybe this time the misguided people are just misguided!", with the irony being that she's mostly on the money.
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    Or maybe Blake went with the talking option because she doesn't want things to escalate to bloodshed like they did with Adam. She didn't want violence to be the only option, which is what Adam had warped the Fang into.
    Words when things can be settled that way (Robyn) and violence when necessary (Ironwood and the AceOps).
     
    GuestLurker said:
    Robyn didn't start fighting until the alternatives had failed
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    She was planing to ambush Ruby and co. back in her first appearance, because apparently the writers moved her first appearance up and for some reason went with early attempted convoy hijacking instead of something like defending Mantle from Grimm.

    Of course they could have also just gone with the conflict being about Ironwood's dust rationing since that is something both Amity and Mantle would need, instead of the being about a wall that never seems tog eat fixed ever after Robyn started hijacking supplies.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    She was planing to ambush Ruby and co. back in her first appearance, because apparently the writers moved her first appearance up and for some reason went with early attempted convoy hijacking instead of something like defending Mantle from Grimm.

    Of course they could have also just gone with the conflict being about Ironwood's dust rationing since that is something both Amity and Mantle would need, instead of the being about a wall that never seems tog eat fixed ever after Robyn started hijacking supplies.
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    She also didn't know Ruby, Qrow, and especially Penny would be in the convoy.
    Heck, given that Penny is labeled "The Protector of Mantle" one would normally think that is where she would be.
    In fact I seem to recall Robyn questioning why the so called "Protector" was so far out in the Tundra, with supplies that were meant for Mantle.

    Oh, and instead of fighting then and there to take said supplies Robyn instead let the convoy through, because she could tell that fighting right there would not of gotten them anything worth it.

    Said encounter also showed that Robyn isn't buying Atlas' crap and is more hints to the audience that things are not good and to be wary of Atlas/Ironwood. Ya know, on top of the intimidating broadcast that had people like Qrow worried, and the fact that our protagonists got arrested after helping protect the people from grimm.
     
    Pugman said:
    She also didn't know Ruby, Qrow, and especially Penny would be in the convoy.
    Heck, given that Penny is labeled "The Protector of Mantle" one would normally think that is where she would be.
    In fact I seem to recall Robyn questioning why the so called "Protector" was so far out in the Tundra, with supplies that were meant for Mantle.

    Oh, and instead of fighting then and there to take said supplies Robyn instead let the convoy through, because she could tell that fighting right there would not of gotten them anything worth it.

    Said encounter also showed that Robyn isn't buying Atlas' crap and is more hints to the audience that things are not good and to be wary of Atlas/Ironwood. Ya know, on top of the intimidating broadcast that had people like Qrow worried, and the fact that our protagonists got arrested after helping protect the people from grimm.
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    She didn't give much of a fuck about Ruby and Qrow since they would be nobodies to her. And the main reason she didn't go through it was Penny being there and warning them about the people Robyn had sneaking up on the other side I.e. now she was looking at a fight she might not win.

    Pugman said:
    Said encounter also showed that Robyn isn't buying Atlas' crap and is more hints to the audience that things are not good and to be wary of Atlas/Ironwood.
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    It was Ruby getting a pretty clear secrets are more trouble than they are worth moment.

    You know the whole not telling anyone they were fixing global communications being out.

    The problem Volume 4 said contributing to villages full of men, women, AND CHILDREN being slaughtered by Grimm.

    Truly the work of villainy /s.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    She didn't give much of a fuck about Ruby and Qrow since they would be nobodies to her. And the main reason she didn't go through it was Penny being there and warning them about the people Robyn had sneaking up on the other side I.e. now she was looking at a fight she might not win.



    It was Ruby getting a pretty clear secrets are more trouble than they are worth moment.

    You know the whole not telling anyone they were fixing global communications being out.

    The problem Volume 4 said contributing to villages full of men, women, AND CHILDREN being slaughtered by Grimm.

    Truly the work of villainy /s.
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    And getting global comms back up was never the issue, it was all about how Ironwood was going about it.
    Ironwood was not looking out for anyone, especially in the end, except for the City of Atlas.
    Think about it. If Ironwood is willing to let Mantle, a city directly under his jurisdiction and protection, be destroyed, how can anyone else on Remnant trust him to protect their lands from the grimm if he can just have his big shiny city fly away from danger?
     
    Pugman said:
    And getting global comms back up was never the issue, it was all about how Ironwood was going about it.
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    How he was doing it pretty much came off as the only way TO do it since the whole project stalled when he couldn't anymore.

    Ironwood was not looking out for anyone, especially in the end, except for the City of Atlas.
    Think about it. If Ironwood is willing to let Mantle, a city directly under his jurisdiction and protection, be destroyed, how can anyone else on Remnant trust him to protect their lands from the grimm if he can just have his big shiny city fly away from danger?
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    So just going to ignore the city of corpses close to Vale (which frankly sounded like a similar situation to what Mantle and Atlas were in) or Mistral letting entire villages get wiped out as not much of a problem, or Vacuo coming off as a place where you are more likely to be left to fend for yourself in that sort of situation.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    How he was doing it pretty much came off as the only way TO do it since the whole project stalled when he couldn't anymore.



    So just going to ignore the city of corpses close to Vale (which frankly sounded like a similar situation to what Mantle and Atlas were in) or Mistral letting entire villages get wiped out as not much of a problem, or Vacuo coming off as a place where you are more likely to be left to fend for yourself in that sort of situation.
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    Ironwood was only stalled when the businesses of Mantle finally had enough and told him NO.

    As for Mount Glenn our protagonists are shocked and horrified by the truth when they learn it, but it's long in the past and there is nothing to be done but do pretty much what Oobleck does. Learn, Remember, Teach. It was before their time. They now know of it. Use that knowledge to try and prevent similar fates from falling. Rinse and repeat.
    For Mistral their territory is so wide spread it is neigh impossible for them to fully protect each and every settlement. It's not always the fault of people at Haven or whatnot that a village is wiped out. That is more often then not the fault of the ol 1-2 punch of Bandits and Grimm.
    For Vacuo you are kind of not understanding the mindset, especially as shown in the books. It's more "if you can prove you belong here then we'll accept you".
    Meanwhile up in Atlas we have Atlas literally right above Mantle, filled with wealth, and not willing to really share it with those that are basically their neighbor. This is not Haven failing to save a village a day or more away when it gets attacked in the middle of the night. This is not bad luck forcing Vale to seal a path and thus seal fates. This is not the result of a normal day of eating sand and hoping a pit doesn't swallow your house in the middle of the night. These are people literally a stones throw away that have suffered various inequality for nearly 80 years because those in the shining city above them go "don't care, got mine."
     
    So I am only vaguely following this argument but it sounds like "Someone else did a bad thing, and or was physically unable to do a good thing (Unlike Ironwood who could have done good things) so that makes it OK for Ironwood to do a bad thing".
     
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    erttheking said:
    Friend sticks up for you = damsel in distress in need of saving.
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    Did you miss the part where they start it was the start of the problem? Blake has consistently been on the backfoot since Adam's death and even with that fight she's basically benched halfway through to let Yang beat him up.

    * Against Adam in Volume 6: Holds her own for the first half then Adam breaks Gambol Shroud and Blake is largely reduced to support while Yang does the heavy lifting. Framing of the fight makes it clear Blake would have lost solo while Yang had a better chance in a 1v1.

    * Sabres in Mantle, Volume 7 episode 1: Blake nearly gets jumped by a Sabre and has to be saved by Penny.

    * Ace Ops fight, Volume 7 Episode 12: Blake is the only member of Team RWBY to take enough damage that her Aura flickers. She doesn't defeat any of the Ace Ops solo and Yang does most of the heavy lifting again. Her biggest contribution is just bombing Vine to set him up for another Yang takedown, and being part of the finisher against Elm- who largely had already lost in a 1v1 to Yang. Blake feels incredibly suprefluous in general.

    * Ace Ops vs Penny, Volume 8 Episode 3: Blake and Weiss's biggest contributions to this fight are getting knocked off a bridge so Ruby can save them.

    * Blake vs Spitter, Volume 8 Episode 8: Blake gets humiliated here by a random Grimm who the fans had to headcanon as being a stronger variant to make her loss less embarassing alongside this being the biggest time of the "They were just tired" excuse even though they'd been in the house for over 24 hours by this point. She spends most of the fight begging for Ruby to wake up and makes amateur plays with her Dust clones, at one point getting slammed by her own clone. Commonly considered to be one of the worst fights of the season and the show at large, had a notable effect on people rating Blake as a fighter.

    * RWBY vs Cinder, Volume 8 Episodes 12-14: Blake does fuck all in the bridge fight. Her biggest contibution is kicking Neo and saving Ruby from a fall only for Cinder to wreck her grapple and get a double kill. Weiss, while dual-wielding Gambol Shroud with her own weapon, is more efficient with Blake's sword than Blake was with it for the entire Atlas Arc.

    The problem is that Blake for the entire Atlas arc was a damsel in distress. Her biggest contributions to fights are largely just setting up foes for Yang to take them down (and that's a good day for her), and of the four members of RWBY she has the most losses or times where she's the one most in danger and needs someone else to save her. Add in that Blake had the lowest word count of the girls in Volume 8 (for the Atlas Arc at large, Clover was able to beat her out despite dying in Volume 7, and Pietro did the same despite vanishing after the Amity episode) and is incredibly passive compared to her characterisation in earlier seasons, alongside that Blake has no real stake in the Mantle plotline despite having a clear pre-existing motive to be part of said plot in that she's a civil activist (the only time Blake ever talks to Robyn, it's in relation to Ironwood because the Bechdel test will never die), and the Atlas Arc in general is just garbage for Blake. She feels incredibly superfluous and has as a character ever since the White Fang plotline was jettisoned after Volume 6- losing Sun and Ilia also did not help.
     
    I feel like I am getting visions of a past time and place where everyone talked about Weiss always being the one to lose fights, the more things change the more 'fandom' stay the same.
     
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    ArtFartCop said:
    Did you miss the part where they start it was the start of the problem? Blake has consistently been on the backfoot since Adam's death and even with that fight she's basically benched halfway through to let Yang beat him up.

    * Against Adam in Volume 6: Holds her own for the first half then Adam breaks Gambol Shroud and Blake is largely reduced to support while Yang does the heavy lifting. Framing of the fight makes it clear Blake would have lost solo while Yang had a better chance in a 1v1.

    * Sabres in Mantle, Volume 7 episode 1: Blake nearly gets jumped by a Sabre and has to be saved by Penny.

    * Ace Ops fight, Volume 7 Episode 12: Blake is the only member of Team RWBY to take enough damage that her Aura flickers. She doesn't defeat any of the Ace Ops solo and Yang does most of the heavy lifting again. Her biggest contribution is just bombing Vine to set him up for another Yang takedown, and being part of the finisher against Elm- who largely had already lost in a 1v1 to Yang. Blake feels incredibly suprefluous in general.

    * Ace Ops vs Penny, Volume 8 Episode 3: Blake and Weiss's biggest contributions to this fight are getting knocked off a bridge so Ruby can save them.

    * Blake vs Spitter, Volume 8 Episode 8: Blake gets humiliated here by a random Grimm who the fans had to headcanon as being a stronger variant to make her loss less embarassing alongside this being the biggest time of the "They were just tired" excuse even though they'd been in the house for over 24 hours by this point. She spends most of the fight begging for Ruby to wake up and makes amateur plays with her Dust clones, at one point getting slammed by her own clone. Commonly considered to be one of the worst fights of the season and the show at large, had a notable effect on people rating Blake as a fighter.

    * RWBY vs Cinder, Volume 8 Episodes 12-14: Blake does fuck all in the bridge fight. Her biggest contibution is kicking Neo and saving Ruby from a fall only for Cinder to wreck her grapple and get a double kill. Weiss, while dual-wielding Gambol Shroud with her own weapon, is more efficient with Blake's sword than Blake was with it for the entire Atlas Arc.

    The problem is that Blake for the entire Atlas arc was a damsel in distress. Her biggest contributions to fights are largely just setting up foes for Yang to take them down (and that's a good day for her), and of the four members of RWBY she has the most losses or times where she's the one most in danger and needs someone else to save her. Add in that Blake had the lowest word count of the girls in Volume 8 (for the Atlas Arc at large, Clover was able to beat her out despite dying in Volume 7, and Pietro did the same despite vanishing after the Amity episode) and is incredibly passive compared to her characterisation in earlier seasons, alongside that Blake has no real stake in the Mantle plotline despite having a clear pre-existing motive to be part of said plot in that she's a civil activist (the only time Blake ever talks to Robyn, it's in relation to Ironwood because the Bechdel test will never die), and the Atlas Arc in general is just garbage for Blake. She feels incredibly superfluous and has as a character ever since the White Fang plotline was jettisoned after Volume 6- losing Sun and Ilia also did not help.
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    Ok, while I have a big ass problem with the core of your argument being that Blake isn't kicking everyone's ass = she's a damsel in distress, the Adam fight in particular is very egregious to me because the entire point that's hammered in with the grace of a sledge hammer was that it was a team effort. As were the ace ops. This is turning into the mindset of "if you don't get the final hit in, you didn't do anything" a mindset that has no place existing outside of people screaming in Halo matches. But what really gals me is how you cherry pick. Weiss got knocked off the bridge too, is she a damsel in distress? Ruby didn't defeat an Ace Op solo, is she a damsel in distress? Everyone eats a hard L in the bridge fight, why is Blake the one getting singled out? Christ, Ruby was the character who actually got caught at one point and I never saw her accused of being a damsel. Or what about Weiss, she got skewered and had to be saved, does that make her a damsel in distress? There's more to being a "damsel" than not being an invincible god of war.

    And she has a lower word count? Seasons have things called focus characters, where even among the main cast people get increased focus. Blake's focus was in Volumes 5 and 6 where the narrative focused heavily on her family and relationships with Yang and Adam. Of course she takes a bit of a backseat after that, characters can't hog the spotlight forever, and she got a lot done in those volumes. Other characters have arcs that need resolving and the Schnees were always gonna be front and center here, with Ren and Nora also getting badly needed arcs.

    Also bolded is what I call a Cinema Sins criticism. A quippy take that criticism that actually doesn't mean anything when you stop and think about it. The Bechdel test is for entire works, and the point is that failing it isn't an automatic strike in quality against the movie and more a reflection of trends at the time and how strange it was to have so few that passed. It's not "oh these two characters specifically didn't pass the test SIN! DING!"
     
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