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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Erinyes said:
    Wouldn't they just, you know, wear them? Also, I doubt Yang would braid her hair. Even putting it up in a pony tail was sign of her depression.
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    Well that idea might be challenged by Ice Queendom Yang.

    Also, speaking of Yang and her hair
    anyone else ever feel Yang wears her hair the way she does and is so protective of it is in part because it is a faint connection to Raven?

    Like, she has known what Raven looks like for a long time, so the part of her that is just a child who wants her mother held the idea of wearing it like her? I mean Yang's clothing style is similar to Tai's and they share the golden hair.
     
    ya know, after watching the first 2 videos of what might be a 3 piece set of videos by Phoenix/Night, I just realized something I think we all over looked.
    So, I am sure you lot recall the old theory of "The Island Is Afterlife/Purgatory and the characters will meet the dead."
    Ya know, Pyrrha, Roman and to spread the knowledge of Cinder's past there is Rhodes.
    BUT there is a group of dead characters that are connected to a pair of main characters that no one has brought up with this idea.
    The 4 Children of Salem and Ozma.

    Imagine, Ruby and the others find the 4 girls and remember them from Story Time With Jinn. They talk about things. They talk about Salem.
    And then before they part ways the youngest girl walks up to Ruby, and hands her the little stuffed dog. "For Mommy."
     
    Pugman said:
    ya know, after watching the first 2 videos of what might be a 3 piece set of videos by Phoenix/Night, I just realized something I think we all over looked.
    So, I am sure you lot recall the old theory of "The Island Is Afterlife/Purgatory and the characters will meet the dead."
    Ya know, Pyrrha, Roman and to spread the knowledge of Cinder's past there is Rhodes.
    BUT there is a group of dead characters that are connected to a pair of main characters that no one has brought up with this idea.
    The 4 Children of Salem and Ozma.

    Imagine, Ruby and the others find the 4 girls and remember them from Story Time With Jinn. They talk about things. They talk about Salem.
    And then before they part ways the youngest girl walks up to Ruby, and hands her the little stuffed dog. "For Mommy."
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    Illegal to hurt me like this
     
    A well-balanced review talking about the negatives and positives of a volume instead of just hyper-focusing one or the other? I must be dreaming.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fKJF_VRSkY

    TL;DW: V8 is the best RWBY volume Raijin has seen yet and he loves it. That being said, it ain't perfect. And I agree with pretty much everything he covered in the vid.

    Pros: It's beautiful. Screenplay, cinematography, music, voice acting, environments, background details; all the little touches demonstrate quite firmly that RWBY is improving by leaps and bounds with every volume. Some slightly neglected characters got some direly needed time in the spotlight...
    Cons: ...At the cost of others. The volume was hampered by trying to do too much in too short a span of screentime, which left some characters and plot beats to the wayside. This is fixable with either a longer production cycle, or just more episodes to spread things out.

    This guy got a sub from me.
     
    Lazurman said:
    A well-balanced review talking about the negatives and positives of a volume instead of just hyper-focusing one or the other? I must be dreaming.


    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fKJF_VRSkY

    TL;DW: V8 is the best RWBY volume Raijin has seen yet and he loves it. That being said, it ain't perfect. And I agree with pretty much everything he covered in the vid.

    Pros: It's beautiful. Screenplay, cinematography, music, voice acting, environments, background details; all the little touches demonstrate quite firmly that RWBY is improving by leaps and bounds with every volume. Some slightly neglected characters got some direly needed time in the spotlight...
    Cons: ...At the cost of others. The volume was hampered by trying to do too much in too short a span of screentime, which left some characters and plot beats to the wayside. This is fixable with either a longer production cycle, or just more episodes to spread things out.

    This guy got a sub from me.
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    Which character didn't get time? o_O
     
    Pugman said:
    Which character didn't get time? o_O
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    I actually agree with the premise.

    I liked V8 but it was a lot crammed into very little time. To an extent this makes thematic sense given everyone's on a time crunch, but I still think almost everyone would have benefited from at least a couple more minutes each, be it for some introspection, or articulation or tensional toning.

    To serve as an example, I liked how things more or less resolved with Qrow's revenge plot via Robyn's guidance, but I think it did come off as a little sudden compared to some other developments and could have used a bit more time or back and forth, but only if there was time to give.
     
    Personally I think all the main characters got enough time.
    The only ones I could see not having had enough time were Vine and Joanna. But on the same coin they are side characters. The only reason I would of wanted more time for Vine was to have a better chance to get attached to the character and maybe see him actually use his weapon.
    But beyond that I think the cast did have the time.
    Then again I guess I am used to not needing much time and usually just go with the flow of a show.
     
    Side characters don't need to be fleshed out to the same degree as main characters or secondary characters, the time and decision to do that is more like gravy than a necessity.
     
    Zam said:
    Side characters don't need to be fleshed out to the same degree as main characters or secondary characters, the time and decision to do that is more like gravy than a necessity.
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    And if the fans do want to see more of them they can have their own spinoff books or the like for fleshing out, like SSSN and CFVY have had over in Shade with their books, or Roman and Neo getting their backstories explained in a book focused on them.
     
    Zam said:
    I actually agree with the premise.

    I liked V8 but it was a lot crammed into very little time. To an extent this makes thematic sense given everyone's on a time crunch, but I still think almost everyone would have benefited from at least a couple more minutes each, be it for some introspection, or articulation or tensional toning.

    To serve as an example, I liked how things more or less resolved with Qrow's revenge plot via Robyn's guidance, but I think it did come off as a little sudden compared to some other developments and could have used a bit more time or back and forth, but only if there was time to give.
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    And while not critical from a plot progression perspective it would have been nice from a window dressing perspective if the battle scenes could have been fleshed out more.


    The battle scenes we did get where nice but this was a much anticipated big showdown volume so even if it would have meant a delayed release a few more minutes of actually showing said showdown would have been appreciated in the long run.

    Team FNKI could have been a nice lens to show that through for example. And it would have been nice to see more of that much hyped Atlesian military strength in action, especially if we also got a bit more emphasis on how difficult it should have been to break the city's shields. Since the battle then could have had an even stronger "no victory in strength" vibe by really showing that Atlas is strong while emphasizing that it's strength was meaningless because it lacked the little things that it had long forgotten, like keeping an eye on and helping the poor people below it which would have let them discover the river before it was too late.
     
    Eh, not enough time per ep to show every little detail has always been the greatest limitation of RWBY, it's not going away any time soon.

    Mook said:
    And it would have been nice to see more of that much hyped Atlesian military strength in action, especially if we also got a bit more emphasis on how difficult it should have been to break the city's shields. Since the battle then could have had an even stronger "no victory in strength" vibe by really showing that Atlas is strong while emphasizing that it's strength was meaningless because it lacked the little things that it had long forgotten, like keeping an eye on and helping the poor people below it which would have let them discover the river before it was too late.
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    Frankly, I always felt what was made perfectly clear over the last two volumes was that Atlas only had the delusion of strength. There's no victory through strength when you don't even understand what it means, after all.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Frankly, I always felt what was made perfectly clear over the last two volumes was that Atlas only had the delusion of strength. There's no victory through strength when you don't even understand what it means, after all.
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    If by that you mean that Atlas isn't powerful then I strongly disagree, just like I feel it would be a bad take to suggest that Raven isn't powerful.


    Not understanding "strength" in the abstract sense is certainly a flaw that leads to the downfall of both.


    But no victory in strength as a concept holds no meaning if the losers are just plain weak. In that case you might as well say that they lost because they were powerless, it distracts from and dillutes the message.



    Atlas is able to field and maintain a massive fleet of ships and aircraft, field vast amounts of mechanized war machines on short notice, have well trained and well equipped professional soldiers with good morale and are effective at keeping all aspects of their military supplied with both materials and up-to-date information.

    Looking at real world events for comparison it's clear that the Atlesian military is a well oiled machine that does it's job well. It is a "strong" military in the sense that its a powerful one. In a direct war with the other Kingdoms Atlas could stomp most of them flat.

    It's downfall and the reason it can't win against it's true enemies with strength is because it lacks heart.

    It could have remained a powerful military with half the forces it had while the excess money could have been spent on economic and social reforms that would have pulled Mantle out of the muck and made the Kingdom as a whole stronger for it.

    It had the best cyber security in the world but that helped little when unaddressed social issues like its Atlesian Exceptionalism produced a toxic individual like Arthur Watts. Exceedingly competent but with an outsized sense of entitlement that eventually caused him to turn coat because Atlesian institutions produced no real camraderie and no sense of national identity but that built on a sense of superiority.



    Ugh. I'm tired.

    One last point. In the Argus fiasco we learn that Cordovin can scramble fighters and have them swarming over any intruders in her airspace in just 90 seconds. That's an excellent response time and shows a highly trained and professional military force. Not just in terms of the pilots but also in terms of mechanics and logistics to keep the aircraft in a constant ready condition.

    The Colossus is also genuinely terrifying in how powerful it is. Between the hard light shields, the missiles and the cannon it could literally stomp on an invading army.


    The multi-layered hard light shields and the constant monitoring of local airspace and waters with radar and possibly other sensors shows a high degree of competence involved in the city's defense.


    Cordovin's undoing isn't that she lacks power or is delusional when she thinks Atlas is strong. Her problem is that (mostly) only values strength (power) and thinks that Atlas being more powerful than other nations makes it inherently better.

    That jingoism and obsession with demonstrating the might of Atlas without concern for what the locals will actually think of her demonstration is what leads to the clusterfuck with the Leviathan.


    That doesn't mean the Argus military base is weak and would easily fold in a conventional battle between warring states. Quite the opposite, in a war all that might would be very beneficial. But not every situation is a direct war. Power doesn't always help, sometimes it's actively detrimental. Especially when it's misused. That's why there's no victory in strength, because having strength (power) doesn't mean you're making the right choices.


    Cordovin's strength (power) failed her when she used it to boost her own and her soldiers ego (distracting them and herself from their true purpose) but it was vital for providing victory when she found true strength and used her power for the purpose it was meant to be used.
     
    Yeah, sorry we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Atlas's institutional incompetence, flaws and overall weaknesses have been on display since volume two. In the end, they had the same kind of 'strength' as Raven. The kind that falls apart the moment any serious pressure is applied. The kind that will run away and leave other people to pay the price. That's not strength. That's just a coward with a gun.
     
    GuestLurker said:
    And for how long have cowards with guns and the like used their power to enforce their will to call themselves strong? Maybe Salem even buys into that delusion given her historiy.
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    Hell, that's pretty much the form of 'strength' Salem used in V8, isn't it? I have to say, part of her final defeat being because she doesn't really understand any kind of strength besides overpowering everyone else would have a touch of pleasant irony.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Hell, that's pretty much the form of 'strength' Salem used in V8, isn't it? I have to say, part of her final defeat being because she doesn't really understand any kind of strength besides overpowering everyone else would have a touch of pleasant irony.
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    It's the only strength she's seen her entire life, from her father trapping her, Ozma freeing her, the gods punishing her for being impolite, her and Oz's conquests... Even Oz himself seems to forget alternatives at times, or at least how they actually work instead of the symbols of them.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Yeah, sorry we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Atlas's institutional incompetence, flaws and overall weaknesses have been on display since volume two. In the end, they had the same kind of 'strength' as Raven. The kind that falls apart the moment any serious pressure is applied. The kind that will run away and leave other people to pay the price. That's not strength. That's just a coward with a gun.
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    I don't think you even understand what my point is.


    When Yang lambasted Raven for being powerful but not strong she was using "Strength" in the sense of "strength of character". You accuse the Atlesian military of lacking this and I don't really* disagree with you on that.


    However when Salem gloats to Ozpin about how there will be no victory in strength she's using "Strength" to in the sense of "strength of arms". You also accuse the Atlesian military of being completely lacking on this front too and that's what I can't agree with.



    If Atlas was some paper tiger that falls the second pressure is applied then it would have abandoned Vale during the Fall of Beacon. Instead we saw Atlesian scouts heroically fight to the last bullet when swarmed with a horde of Grimm out of nowhere, we saw soldiers keep fighting against their own heavy armored vehicles instead of deserting their posts like most people would in such a crushingly demoralizing position, we saw soldiers determinedly pressing on against Deathstalkers and other nasty beasties and we saw Ironwood being genuinely heroic multiple times. Sure his priorities were a bit skewed at first but a few stern words from Ozpin were all it took to get his priorities in order.


    There were flaws too but both then and in volume 7 it was emphasized just how extraordinary the circumstances were for someone to be able to get past their digital defenses. As Pietro put it only a genius or one of their own could have managed it, and he rightly feared it was both.

    In volume 2 we also see this dichotomy between the strength of arms and strength of character. The Paladin thefts are only a thing in the first place because Atlas produces genuinely powerful war machines that can easily turn the tide of a battle. Ruby is saved from being mauled by an Ursa thanks to pinpoint accurate close-air support that would be dangerous to attempt from incompetent pilots/shoddy aircraft. The Atlesian knights easily mop up rank and file Grimm and likely greatly reduced casualties in the process. The heroic swell in music when the Atlesian military shows up isn't there as a fake out. When they have their heads screwed on right the Atlesians can be a great force for good.



    Ultimately I feel like you're devaluing Salem by framing Atlas as a paper tiger that will fall over from any random stuff breeze.

    The reason there will be no victory in strength is because Salem is scarily competent at finding and exploiting peoples weaknesses and turning them against each other. Atlas wasn't destined to fail no matter what, Salem actively worked to make it happen and went to great lengths to undermine them.

    There's a reason she had Watts hack an election to make Jacques Schnee be the voice of the oppressed in Atlesian society instead of Robyn Hill. One had the potential to fix the ills of their society, the other made them worse.




    Going back to Cordovin as a microcosm of Atlas she had plenty of strength of arms (airships and the colossus) but had all but forgotten her strength of character.


    Meanwhile Ruby had plenty of strength of character but limited supplies of strength of arms.


    Ultimately Ruby could not have saved Argus with strength of character alone, but by inspiring Cordovin to remember her own strength of character her strength of arms was brought back into the fray to defeat the Leviathan.

    At that point Ruby also could not have done much to escape if Cordovin had decided to arrest her. But the thing is, arresting Ruby wouldn't have made the situation any better. Which is another side to "strength will not bring victory", having power doesn't help you win if you don't use it for the right things.


    A huge part of why volume 7 was so agonizing was because we got to see a glimpse of (to crib from a certain Arcane song) things could have been. Atlas could have been a larger scale Argus, Ironwood could have done the wrong thing for a time only before being inspired to do better.

    The might of Atlas could have been rallied to protect the weak, Robyn Hill could have had a strong say in the Kingdoms politics, Salem's agents could have been neutralized and Salem could have ran head first into exactly what she feared the most: united opposition.


    But the double whammy of Watts sabotaging the Kingdom at every turn and Neo allowing Cinder to get into the perfect position to hit Ironwood with a perfectly timed and aimed mind game that slammed right into his trauma button was just too much.

    Ironwood fell in the end, and took Atlas with him. But it's a credit to Salem, Cinder, Tyrian, Watts and Neo that things got so bad. Just launching a frontal assault on the Kingdom by itself would not have worked, they put in the effort to make it work.
     
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