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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Pugman said:
    And exploring a "seedy underbelly" is not really the kind of focus this show goes for.
    If RNJR went exploring and got into shit with The Spiders that would of been another thread the writers would have to balance on their plate.
    And since when was Qrow looking for "Black Market Huntsmen"? All he was looking for were other Huntsmen he had worked with in the past who he felt he could trust to have their backs in a fight and not have loose lips. Not to mention said people were apparently well enough known that Hazel and Tyrian targeted them as potential threats to their Haven plans
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    This is just a bunch of pedantic nitpicking not addressing the key points of RNJR having next to nothing to do throughout v5 and not exploring Mistral city at all.
     
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    And how much did we explore Vale, Patch, Kuo Kuana, Argus, Mantle or Atlas?
    Not a lot if at all. Why? Because that is not a focus of the story.
    We didn't get a lot of how damn vanilla Vale is, how country Patch might be, the island culture of Kuo Kuana, or how Mistral and Atlas fuse to make Argus.
    Why? Because walking the streets and our heroes interacting with basically NPCs was not the focus of the writing.
    Instead the focus is our young heroes going from a group of students just living their life (Beacon), to them recovering and trying to hold on to a semblance of normal and safety (the Mistral Arc and everyone trying to find their way), to them finally starting to take charge (Argus and Mantle/Atlas).
    Heck, given what RNJR went through and what they learned I doubt they'd feel all that safe walking around Mistral. It's a city known for crime, they don't know where there enemy is, and they have already been jumped before. Instead they now have the badass Uncle Qrow and a returned Professor Ozpin their to give guidance, knowledge and advice, and as it stands said guidance is stick around the house and train. Ozpin trains them and also gets Oscar up to speed while Qrow runs around to try and find allies. Sure it's dull, but it's safe.
     
    No, we get plenty of focus on Vale, Kuo Kuana, Atlas, Argus and Mantle. We do meet the locals, engage with their politics, get shown how the people live. Nobody is asking for a National Geographic documentary about these places, just to provide enough of sn illusion of a real society that they are more than interchangeable battle arenas.

    And the idea that RNJR are too traumatized to explore this new location is irrelevant. If the writers wanted to flesh out the setting, there are a thousand possible plots to force the kids out of their comfort zones.
     
    Pugman said:
    And how much did we explore Vale, Patch, Kuo Kuana, Argus, Mantle or Atlas?
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    At least we got outside for the rest of those cities and didn't spent ten episodes in a living room. We got a sense of what the day to day is like for those settings, we saw civilians going about their business, got a sense of the atmosphere and the culture. It wasn't a deep-dive into those locations but at least you got an impression of what it was like to live in that area. I couldn't tell you shit about Mistral that doesn't come from some 2d paintings and side-shows.

    Atlas is the only exception in that that city is also criminally underexplored (we don't get a single scene on the streets of the city outside of one part of Cinder's trite flashback in V8) due to a hyperfocus on Mantle in Volume 7 which directly led into the city getting no real screentime and feeling chronically underdeveloped. And that's also because Volume 8 repeated so many of Volume 5's worst mistakes, which is why that season is such a catastrophic misfire. Chief among the things they repeat is locking Ruby in a house for ten episodes again so the rest of the plot can come find her when it's time for the season finale, which means that despite Ruby being in a location, that location has no real development.

    At least Mistral can still be explored though. Atlas and Mantle can never get a second shot at the setting outside of prequel content now.
     
    And then we have to remember all the shit going on behind the scenes that hindered so much about the Mistral Arc beyond just all the stories in the show going on at the same time.

    I am just going to drop a list here and be done with it;
    Exploring each area has never been a focus of the show or it's writing.
    We got info on Mistral through the World of Remnant videos.
    We saw characters going around outside the house, they just weren't RNJR.
    RNJR was still given something to do, we just didn't get a lot of focus on it.
    CRWBY were trying to balance multiple stories at once, something that is inherently not easy to do.
    Behind the scenes RoosterTeetch had gen:Lock in the works and it is documented how that ended up effecting so much of everything else within the company.
    In the end Volume 5 has remained a black eye in the story of RWBY and both staff and fans are still dealing with the effects to this day.


    Now to move on.

    Tin Pot

    View: https://luimnigh.tumblr.com/post/680880796749447168/im-not-sure-i-saw-this-pointed-out-in-the-last


    Cozy

    View: https://it-me-butts.tumblr.com/post/680792964902043648/she-cozy


    Lift

    View: https://shrimperini.tumblr.com/post/680795522439823360/this-happened-real
     
    Zam said:
    Possibly, I think its mostly just noting that no one, least of all Salem seem to have accounts for Kuo Kuana at all.
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    Be kind of funny if they beat Salem by hiding one of the relics out in the deserts of Menagerie.
    Zam said:
    while the former attitude basically says, "No one is allowed to get better, no one is allowed to try and change, until they have suffered sufficiently for my satisfaction."
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    So Hell by most definitions.
    Psyga315 said:
    The other reason the House got so much flack in Volume 5 was because that's all we got out of Mistral aside from Haven. You're telling me you have this entire city where it has this two-faced "full of culture and richness but it hides a seedy underbelly" nature and the most interaction that the heroes had with it is "oh, Qrow took a stroll and discovered some black market Huntsmen are dead"?
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    Where would the production find the time and money to make the assets for all of that? It could serve as a time frame for short stories and world building stuff, but the guys making the show might not have had the time, and instead of doing something with that empty time some fans are busy complaining about it. It is an issue, but it's no where near as crippling as many seem to treat it.
    Pugman said:
    Behind the scenes RoosterTeetch had gen:Lock in the works and it is documented how that ended up effecting so much of everything else within the company.
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    Gen:Lock was such a weight on their production capabilities that they gave the second season to a different studio. It went horribly wrong. I do wonder if any of their other animated series will be continuing though, I don't recall any of them getting updates recently.
     
    Pugman said:
    going back to my question on Mercury earlier
    anyone here have thoughts/ideas/hopes/headcanons for the character?
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    Not particularly hopeful for anything Mercury related anymore given how lackluster his content has been since Volume 3 and the general vibe I get that no one on the writing staff really likes Mercury. I'm more interested in seeing what fans of the character do than what the official material does because at least that comes from a place of interest.

    My best prediction is that he'll likely become the next Adam/Ironwood where his fans will be irked by his writing whenever he gets more focus due to it going in a controversial direction (e.g. Mercury doubles down on villainy or the Mercury/Emerald ship is hard shot down) and then people who previously never gave a shit about the character suddenly pretend to be great philosophers who dismiss concerns and criticisms as "people being salty their headcanons didn't come true."

    My personal hope when I cared about Mercury was that he got his head out of the sand and walked away with Emerald, if that counts.
     
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    If there is anyone that could help convince Merc he really doesn't want to be here, it's Tyrian. Unfortunately, if there's anyone that would take violent action the moment Merc realizes it, it's Tyrian. So he's in a tough spot, to put it mildly. On top of that, the only person he gave a damn about (Even if, again, he won't admit it) has gotten the hell out of there and is on the heroes side now. Which is going to put him under even more scrutiny. I'm really looking forward to seeing where he goes.

    I'm expecting some more doubling down by him, but it may not go the way he expects. The next Mercury/Emerald encounter is going to be great, with the real kicker being if it happens before or after Emmy runs into Cinder again.
     
    ArtFartCop said:
    Not particularly hopeful for anything Mercury related anymore given how lackluster his content has been since Volume 3 and the general vibe I get that no one on the writing staff really likes Mercury. I'm more interested in seeing what fans of the character do than what the official material does because at least that comes from a place of interest.

    My best prediction is that he'll likely become the next Adam/Ironwood where his fans will be irked by his writing whenever he gets more focus due to it going in a controversial direction (e.g. Mercury doubles down on villainy or the Mercury/Emerald ship is hard shot down) and then people who previously never gave a shit about the character suddenly pretend to be great philosophers who dismiss concerns and criticisms as "people being salty their headcanons didn't come true."

    My personal hope when I cared about Mercury was that he got his head out of the sand and walked away with Emerald, if that counts.
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    Even though he had almost as much screen time as Emerald?
    Even though they gave us his feelings on his past?
    Even though he has been shown to know that Cinder is just using them?
    Even though the show has shown that our heroes have not forgotten what the duo has done to them?
    Even when a character in the show basically said to his face that he is only in this situation because it's the only life he knows?

    We are clearly not seeing the same show and you are already showing signs of being salty despite claims you don't care about the character anymore.
     
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    Pugman said:
    We are clearly not seeing the same show
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    The funny thing is that the video I posted earlier brings up this common line and a counterargument to it:

    Are we even watching the same show? Is there one show that we are all watching? Can we all agree about this? Well, yes, but actually no. Not entirely. As much as I would love for everyone to agree on everything and there to be no discourse ever, that simply cannot happen.

    Because even though there might be one story with one set of characters, and even though we are all watching that show, we all interpret it differently and the more you engage with the show, the more valid your interpretation is.

    While authors might intend for one interpretation, that is not always what gets received. Part of a writer's job is to tell the story clearly enough that as many people can interpret it the same way as possible. But because everyone interprets things differently, there are always infinite, different versions of a show in people's minds.

    And you also have to keep in mind that as the audience, we don't know everything. We are making critiques without the full context of the story. We only know the story as it exists right now. But the authors have the full story. They know all of the directions they want the characters to take. They have all the plot beats planned out in an idea for the order that they most want to do them in.
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    The basic TL;DR is that we all interpret the show differently because we're given the information piecemeal, and as we engage with the show in different ways, those interpretations become more valid.

    It's why Ironwood talking about Salem's lack of humanity is both interpreted to be "her lack of humanity terrifies me" and "I'm envious of Salem's lack of humanity". Prior biases have caused us to look at the same show through different lenses.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    To an extent, this also ties into Ozma and his failings; even if he regularly works with other people and would seem to have support, he's also very isolated, both because of his immortality and because of how much of the truth he's chosen to keep secret.
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    As an aside, the heroes aren't insulated from the trauma changes you thing either, the main difference is that they've had a mixture of things the villains didn't.

    Weiss for instance, when she arrived at Beacon was, to put it nicely, kind of a dick and was definitely developing some shitty traits as a result of her fathers treatment. However, Ruby choosing (After advice) to take the helpful part of Weiss's words and Weiss herself being given useful guidance and then seeing Ruby doing as such opens the metaphorical flood gates for steady healing and self improvement. Something we see major strides in at various points but one of the strongest thematically is when Jac is starting to manipulate Weiss and RBY come to her support and affirm the found family.

    Blake's trauma based responses led her on a more self destructive than villainous path, but the support of her family and a nominally safe place to recover gave her what she needed to begin healing.

    I've made it clear I don't care much for the Tai & Yang arc, but the fact Yang had somewhere safe to be, and then had the emotional support of her team was undeniably helpful.

    Jaune's a great example of this actually, with him becoming increasingly self destructive and myopic across V4. 5 and 6, with the last one helping level his development out by gently confronting the unhealthy habits he's been developing.

    Heck, Ren & Nora just having each other likely played a huge role in their formative responses to their trauma, that both kept them alive and made it harder for more harmful coping mechanisms to develop, we are a social species after all.

    In contrast, well, Salem was perpetually isolated and thus became bitter. Cinder was given a sword, training and told to wait, none of which actually addresses her problems, emotional or circumstantial. Both Emerald and Mercury got picked up by someone who had a vested interest in expanding on their worst impulses, just like Cinder herself was. Adam had a support network he could have turned to, but he instead tried to make it a reflection of himself.

    There's definitely elements of personal choice, cos the essay doesn't argue people are totally under the control of what happened to them, but it does inform a lot about how they developed and how one, with support and introspection can avoid going down those paths.

    That is to say, both heroes and villains have a lot of trauma, so its definitely not 'trauma makes you evil' or 'trauma gives you an excuse' but the series doesn't ignore the role such experiences and what follows play in informing how a person grows.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The funny thing is that the video I posted earlier brings up this common line and a counterargument to it:


    The basic TL;DR is that we all interpret the show differently because we're given the information piecemeal, and as we engage with the show in different ways, those interpretations become more valid.

    It's why Ironwood talking about Salem's lack of humanity is both interpreted to be "her lack of humanity terrifies me" and "I'm envious of Salem's lack of humanity". Prior biases have caused us to look at the same show through different lenses.
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    And those 2 takes can both be right without contradicting anything, meanwhile other recent points brought up today in this very thread go beyond "I interpret this different from you" and fall more into "I fail to understand the information presented by the show or just refuse to try to understand it".


    Zam said:
    As an aside, the heroes aren't insulated from the trauma changes you thing either, the main difference is that they've had a mixture of things the villains didn't.

    Weiss for instance, when she arrived at Beacon was, to put it nicely, kind of a dick and was definitely developing some shitty traits as a result of her fathers treatment. However, Ruby choosing (After advice) to take the helpful part of Weiss's words and Weiss herself being given useful guidance and then seeing Ruby doing as such opens the metaphorical flood gates for steady healing and self improvement. Something we see major strides in at various points but one of the strongest thematically is when Jac is starting to manipulate Weiss and RBY come to her support and affirm the found family.

    Blake's trauma based responses led her on a more self destructive than villainous path, but the support of her family and a nominally safe place to recover gave her what she needed to begin healing.

    I've made it clear I don't care much for the Tai & Yang arc, but the fact Yang had somewhere safe to be, and then had the emotional support of her team was undeniably helpful.

    Jaune's a great example of this actually, with him becoming increasingly self destructive and myopic across V4. 5 and 6, with the last one helping level his development out by gently confronting the unhealthy habits he's been developing.

    Heck, Ren & Nora just having each other likely played a huge role in their formative responses to their trauma, that both kept them alive and made it harder for more harmful coping mechanisms to develop, we are a social species after all.

    In contrast, well, Salem was perpetually isolated and thus became bitter. Cinder was given a sword, training and told to wait, none of which actually addresses her problems, emotional or circumstantial. Both Emerald and Mercury got picked up by someone who had a vested interest in expanding on their worst impulses, just like Cinder herself was. Adam had a support network he could have turned to, but he instead tried to make it a reflection of himself.

    There's definitely elements of personal choice, cos the essay doesn't argue people are totally under the control of what happened to them, but it does inform a lot about how they developed and how one, with support and introspection can avoid going down those paths.

    That is to say, both heroes and villains have a lot of trauma, so its definitely not 'trauma makes you evil' or 'trauma gives you an excuse' but the series doesn't ignore the role such experiences and what follows play in informing how a person grows.
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    Spot on.

    Tell me what you think of this summary
    Do we take the pain of trauma and let ourselves remain broken (The Hermit), do we take our broken parts and use it to strike back against the world (Salem and Cinder), or do we re-forge ourselves and try again (our protagonists)?
     
    Pugman said:
    Tell me what you think of this summary
    Do we take the pain of trauma and let ourselves remain broken (The Hermit), do we take our broken parts and use it to strike back against the world (Salem and Cinder), or do we re-forge ourselves and try again (our protagonists)?
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    I think it works quite well, though as noted, the importance of having people or systems to be there for a person is also integral.

    Actually, idle aside, but that's another one of those things the Ace-Ops were used for. They lost Tortuga but were basically told "You are not allowed to grieve, have this replacement". And that repeated refrain of not being allowed to feel or work through those difficult emotions caused them to become ugly and destructive, while maintaining the unhealthy mechanism of obedience that effectively kept re-traumatizing them.
     
    Zam said:
    I think it works quite well, though as noted, the importance of having people or systems to be there for a person is also integral.

    Actually, idle aside, but that's another one of those things the Ace-Ops were used for. They lost Tortuga but were basically told "You are not allowed to grieve, have this replacement". And that repeated refrain of not being allowed to feel or work through those difficult emotions caused them to become ugly and destructive, while maintaining the unhealthy mechanism of obedience that effectively kept re-traumatizing them.
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    Which was a core problem for the kingdom since even before the war.
    Kingdom of Mantle - Expression leads to negative emotions and those bring the grimm! Eliminate the emotions and we'll be fine.
    Kingdom of Atlas - Our machinery and cold efficiency make us superior! If something does not fit, then just remove and replace.

    Heck, it's not just the military even we see the "control or replace" idea. We see it with The Schnees. Winter does not fall in line and runs off to the military? Make Weiss the heiress. Weiss continues to be stubborn? Put her down and make Whitley the heir. Klein helps Weiss escape? Fire him.

    And the cool thing I think we can all agree on is that this baked in message of being social and working together comes right from how RWBY even came to be, when a guy with a crazy idea went to his friends and asked for help in making it real, and how even when the person was no longer there those who remained carried on with the mission and the dream.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    If there is anyone that could help convince Merc he really doesn't want to be here, it's Tyrian. Unfortunately, if there's anyone that would take violent action the moment Merc realizes it, it's Tyrian. So he's in a tough spot, to put it mildly. On top of that, the only person he gave a damn about (Even if, again, he won't admit it) has gotten the hell out of there and is on the heroes side now. Which is going to put him under even more scrutiny. I'm really looking forward to seeing where he goes.

    I'm expecting some more doubling down by him, but it may not go the way he expects. The next Mercury/Emerald encounter is going to be great, with the real kicker being if it happens before or after Emmy runs into Cinder again.
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    Oh yeah. Salem is totally going to tell Tyrian to off Mercury if he gets even the slightest hint he's leaning towards defecting. Or she'll warn him he might and Tyrian's going to be looking for the opportunity.
    But I honestly Mercury as conflicted about it and doesn't switch until the last moment and he ends up dying.
     
    It'd be three flavors of response to Face Turning from cinder's group.
    Cinder: Violent Rejection
    Emerald: Guilty Acceptance
    Mercury: Too Late Attempt
     
    daedalus725 said:
    But she made em sad with backstory she can't be bad
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    This is funny, but to be fair, I do think you can use what's established in the show so far to write a good, convincing redemption for Salem. Honestly, I kinda expect Salem to end up being redeemed. But it won't be by pretending that the Queen of the Grimm in her current state or her state as of her messy divorce with Ozma wasn't willing to just murder things that ended up in her way. The Lost Fable is pretty damned clear that the influence of the Pools of Destruction is one hell of a malignancy.

    And to be clear, just because I think a Cinder redemption is gross (and unlikely) doesn't mean I don't think RWBY is a show that's going to eschew second chances. We've already had Ilia, Emerald, Hazel, the Ace Ops, Winter, arguably Ozpin. We could, and most likely will get a few more. But that doesn't mean every villain gets a redemption. Roman, Lionheart, Adam, Jacques, Watts, and Ironwood certainly didn't a chance for redemption. Of our remaining current cast of villains (Salem, Cinder, Tyrian, Mercury, Neo), I'd say Cinder and Tyrian both have more in common with those who weren't redeemed. Mercury has shown a glimmer of being able to think about someone other than himself. Neo could go either way - either a redemption or lesson on the folly of vengeance. Salem is in a weird area. Nominally, she's also closer to those that were not redeemed in characterization, but there's a potential built in out and so we'll have to see where that goes.
     
    Erinyes said:
    But that doesn't mean every villain gets a redemption. Roman, Lionheart, Adam, Jacques, Watts, and Ironwood certainly didn't a chance for redemption.
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    I would argue some of them were given a chance in the sense they were straight up told they could just walk away or given the chance to stop. Ironwood & Adam in particular both found themselves in a situation where they could just stop or leave but instead chose to keep charging towards self destruction because admitting they were wrong was a bridge too far to cross.
     
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