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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • I didn't give her the benefit of the doubt and suggest a long term breeding out plan because "Sad Backstory". I gave it because I expect her to act as intelligently as she always has. I personally don't believe in any kind of "Redemption" for Mommy Salami. Willing to give it a fair chance but I'm doubtful it can be pulled off too well.
     
     
    Zam said:
    The Problem with Pedestals:

    View: https://bobauthorman.tumblr.com/post/681244335034007552/
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    In short, people look to others to guide them, instead of following their own indomitable souls and leading themselves.

    Heck, Ruby KIND of touched on it back at Argus when she had that argument with Qrow. When she told him that they had dealt with bad situations and didn't need an adult to tell them what to do, that they just did it their way.
    In fact.....ya actually I think Ruby and friends could build on that when they eventually talk with The Gods.
    Remnant has, as Salem said, been Godless for ages. And yet Humanity rose again and despite both Grimm and itself Humanity has survived. Sure at times Salem and Oz have guided people, but by and large what Humanity has achieved through their own Creations, Destructions, Knowledge and Choices has forged Kingdoms, built incredible technology, and no matter how dark the night they have constantly risen to face each new dawn. So with or without Gods the people of Remnant keep living.



    Any way, have a funny video

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVGuCaljIR0
     
    imagine this

    Final Battle happens, Relics brought together, Gods summoned.
    Ruby talks with the Gods, The Gods leave, The Gods take Salem, Oz, Magic and Grimm with them.

    Cut to a defeated Cinder, defeated before and finally pulling herself off the ground, only for the light of the Maiden Powers to start to pull away from her, and then her grimm parts start to fade away.
    She is panicked, swinging her remaining arm, desperately trying to grab hold of The Power she had fought tooth and nail for for years, but to no avail.
    Defeated, powerless, she breaks down and falls to her knees.
     
    I hope Cinder is the one to kill Salem by stabbing her in the back and she utterly fails to see it coming. And then Cinder gets beat with the power of friendship, obviously.
     
    Given the shows themes and what we've been told about Salem's immortality, it still seems odd that Salem's death would be a solution for someone. That is, I don't think Tyrian, Cinder, or anyone else will kill Salem as anything but a mercy to Salem, after everything else is resolved, because otherwise Ozpin and Ironwood would have been correct on focusing on needing to kill her. I think she'll be sidelined or removed as an antagonist by some other, likely peaceful, means.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Given the shows themes and what we've been told about Salem's immortality, it still seems odd that Salem's death would be a solution for someone. That is, I don't think Tyrian, Cinder, or anyone else will kill Salem as anything but a mercy to Salem, after everything else is resolved, because otherwise Ozpin and Ironwood would have been correct on focusing on needing to kill her. I think she'll be sidelined or removed as an antagonist by some other, likely peaceful, means.
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    Sure and just as Salem finally realizes the error of her ways or reconciles with Ozma... bam she is run through by the Relic of Destruction or Cinder's Grimm-arm which she has used the Staff to tune up so it can steal Salem's powers or whatever.
     
    HamHamJ said:
    Sure and just as Salem finally realizes the error of her ways or reconciles with Ozma... bam she is run through by the Relic of Destruction or Cinder's Grimm-arm which she has used the Staff to tune up so it can steal Salem's powers or whatever.
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    Again, that sort of ending would run very counter to what we've already been shown and the themes RWBY seems to be trying to convey.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Again, that sort of ending would run very counter to what we've already been shown and the themes RWBY seems to be trying to convey.
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    To be fair, the entire series was launched with a trailer of Ruby Rose kicking ass. That's basically its selling point. It'd be rather weird to have RWBY's big climatic showdown be just civil conversation.
     
    RWBY's fond of blending character meta-narratives and communication through combat as well, take Blake & Yang's silent conversations across V6 concluded through their battle with Adam and the fact that while they did offer him an out he refused it.

    Similarly, RWBY flexing on the Ace-Ops thus showing their ideals as stronger than the self destructive ideals of Atlas, and the ensuing battles that followed, (Along with other events) Challenging and contrasting the Ace-Ops ideals. They didn't just have someone walk up and talk them into submission and doing so would be rather boring 9 times out of 10 anyway.

    What I am getting at here is RWBY is an action show, it does indeed have themes of strength not being the end all be all (Motions at Ironwood as an example) But it doesn't discount it for some kind of passivism either and ideological conflicts often get conveyed as much through words as through combat, as through the overarching story.
    That is to say, its never just 1 event, the closest we've come to that is Yang tearing down Raven. but contextually, Raven also just lost Vernal, is weakened and has been called out by Leo before now and has been desperately fighting to keep her head above water since Cinder showed up. It wasn't just Yang's words that caused her to leave the Relic to her, it was the battles and losses and circumstances that came before it.

    This is another reason why I think the whole "RWBY/Ruby will talk back to the gods (Who will listen despite never showing a penchant for that) or even convince Salem to not be dicks/let go/ETC" in one conversation unrealistic. People don't change that easily and this isn't Naruto where therapy jutsu is a thing either, it takes a lot more than sympathizing with someone or beating them up to actually make things different.

    Aside:
    I find the propping up of Ruby I often see on this front to be rather odd too, I feel that (Though I could be wrong) The shows been making it rather clear Ozpin's ideals about a smaller more honest soul/guardians is extremely wrong headed and damaging. Again, just look at Pyrrha and more recently, look at how Ruby reacted to Blake's words, smiling sure but its strained and exhausted and pained. And given team works is a foundational part of this series I doubt, even if CRWBY did have the gods or Salem be talked down that it would just be Salem.

    Plus, given figures like Pyrrha, Adam, Hazel, Ironwood, Vine, ETC, I wouldn't rule out anything either. What I mean is, for all we know Cinder might find a way to rip Salem's immortality out of her and claim it for herself, leaving Salem to disintegrate but like Clover or Vine getting some kind of closure from it, or like Adam a last mine realization of "Oh, this isn't my story".

    Salem's a helluva a lot more important than Clover, Adam or Vine, but the point here is that just because she's important doesn't guarantee a personal journey of satisfaction for her when she exists to serve the story like everyone else.
     
    you can still have a big battle while still ending things on a dialogue.
    and heck, you can have the talking happening while the fight is going on.
    but honestly, you are not going to get anywhere if you try and take a physical/magical shot at the Gods.
     
    Pugman said:
    you can still have a big battle while still ending things on a dialogue.
    and heck, you can have the talking happening while the fight is going on.
    but honestly, you are not going to get anywhere if you try and take a physical/magical shot at the Gods.
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    ... I honestly don't know how to respond to this because I feel it ignores literally everything I said and then decided to cap off with more god deference stuff which we all know the debating there-of goes no where with.
     
    Zam said:
    ... I honestly don't know how to respond to this because I feel it ignores literally everything I said and then decided to cap off with more god deference stuff which we all know the debating there-of goes no where with.
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    is it defense? or is it stating a shown fact?
    Not to mention both gods are willing to hear people out, but don't take kindly to being yelled at, being tricked, or being "attacked".
    So honestly when they get summoned I could easily see them at least humoring them long enough to hear them out, especially if the Relic Spirits vouch for them. We already have 2 of them amused by Ruby and her friends. And with this chance Ruby and friends just have to roll high enough on their diplomacy checks.
     
    Pugman said:
    Not to mention both gods are willing to hear people out, but don't take kindly to being yelled at, being tricked, or being "attacked".
    So honestly when they get summoned I could easily see them at least humoring them long enough to hear them out, especially if the Relic Spirits vouch for them. We already have 2 of them amused by Ruby and her friends. And with this chance Ruby and friends just have to roll high enough on their diplomacy checks.
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    No, what @Zam is saying is that you basically took the post of

    "RWBY blends combat with conversation to a degree that having the show resolve with just a chat would just be nonsensical"

    and turned it into another rendition of "the Gods are 1000% right and trying to argue that will get you nuked".
     
    Psyga315 said:
    No, what @Zam is saying is that you basically took the post of

    "RWBY blends combat with conversation to a degree that having the show resolve with just a chat would just be nonsensical"

    and turned it into another rendition of "the Gods are 1000% right and trying to argue that will get you nuked".
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    And what I am say is NOT "Gods are right"
    What I am saying is "The last time people tried to box with them the entire race got clapped, so maybe try something else."

    Like, the United Forces Of Remnant can be fighting off hordes of Grimm in various locations while our main group try to verbally convince the Gods to not smite them a second time.
     
    Pugman said:
    is it defense? or is it stating a shown fact?
    Not to mention both gods are willing to hear people out, but don't take kindly to being yelled at, being tricked, or being "attacked".
    So honestly when they get summoned I could easily see them at least humoring them long enough to hear them out, especially if the Relic Spirits vouch for them. We already have 2 of them amused by Ruby and her friends. And with this chance Ruby and friends just have to roll high enough on their diplomacy checks.
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    I said deference and given how many revelations RWBY continues to drop over the series I find your presumption the all powerful genocide deities getting to win is a bad take.
    They very much do not hear people out, act entire Disproportionately and were based on Greek Gods, you know, the murderous rapists who torture people for the pettiest of things.
    And again, I think you missed the entire point about how RWBY handles character development, growth and interactions if you really think one conversation will magically fix everything when that has literally not happened at any point in this show.

    Also this:
    Psyga315 said:
    No, what @Zam is saying is that you basically took the post of

    "RWBY blends combat with conversation to a degree that having the show resolve with just a chat would just be nonsensical"

    and turned it into another rendition of "the Gods are 1000% right and trying to argue that will get you nuked".
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    Seriously, there was so much more to the post than the stuff about the gods who barely warranted a mention beyond their shared role with Salem as a source of problems, and that doesn't even touch on the points about Ozpin's idolization of the singular soul, how RWBY tells stories, and the fact that Ozpin & Salem are both flawed narrators and more.
    Pugman said:
    And what I am say is NOT "Gods are right"
    What I am saying is "The last time people tried to box with them the entire race got clapped, so maybe try something else."

    Like, the United Forces Of Remnant can be fighting off hordes of Grimm in various locations while our main group try to verbally convince the Gods to not smite them a second time.
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    My post. Was not. About. That.
     
    Zam said:
    I said deference and given how many revelations RWBY continues to drop over the series I find your presumption the all powerful genocide deities getting to win is a bad take.
    They very much do not hear people out, act entire Disproportionately and were based on Greek Gods, you know, the murderous rapists who torture people for the pettiest of things.
    And again, I think you missed the entire point about how RWBY handles character development, growth and interactions if you really think one conversation will magically fix everything when that has literally not happened at any point in this show.

    Also this:

    Seriously, there was so much more to the post than the stuff about the gods who barely warranted a mention beyond their shared role with Salem as a source of problems, and that doesn't even touch on the points about Ozpin's idolization of the singular soul, how RWBY tells stories, and the fact that Ozpin & Salem are both flawed narrators and more.

    My post. Was not. About. That.
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    And I never said one talk with the Gods would "fix everything"
    Even if the Gods took Salem, Oz, Magic, and Grimm there would still be many issues plaguing the world.
    As for them being based on Greek Gods, isn't another facet of RWBY characters that they are more than just their initial inspiration? So while the Greek Gods didn't really learn lessons what is to say Remnant's Gods can't learn something?
    A talk with Ruby and others won't fix everything, I never meant to imply that. BUT such a talk would be a start. Remnant can have a chance to move forward without the Shadow War plaguing the world while the Gods ponder whatever the hack they get told.

    I am sorry you and Psy got sent into such a tizy from one off handed post that wasn't even more than 3 lines long and basically ended with an, admittedly, poorly worded sentence that was meant to mean "if we really need a big climactic battle, it should not involve the Gods"


    now to move forward, tumblr!

    LumityRose

    View: https://fillmargarin.tumblr.com/post/681331758902460416/hi


    Queendom Pyrrha

    View: https://anika-art.tumblr.com/post/681382353757765632/to-be-honest-i-regret-nothing-xd-youre-welcome


    Yang and PTSD

    View: https://hamliet.tumblr.com/post/681334262337765376/hi-what-do-you-think-of-how-yangs-ptsd-has-been


    and with that I am off to watch "Skeleton Knight In Another World" before I go to bed for the night. Still have 1 more day of work tomorrow and my shoulder is killing me. >.<
    Night folks.
     
    Pugman said:
    And I never said one talk with the Gods would "fix everything"
    Even if the Gods took Salem, Oz, Magic, and Grimm there would still be many issues plaguing the world.
    As for them being based on Greek Gods, isn't another facet of RWBY characters that they are more than just their initial inspiration? So while the Greek Gods didn't really learn lessons what is to say Remnant's Gods can't learn something?
    A talk with Ruby and others won't fix everything, I never meant to imply that. BUT such a talk would be a start. Remnant can have a chance to move forward without the Shadow War plaguing the world while the Gods ponder whatever the hack they get told.

    I am sorry you and Psy got sent into such a tizy from one off handed post that wasn't even more than 3 lines long and basically ended with an, admittedly, poorly worded sentence that was meant to mean "if we really need a big climactic battle, it should not involve the Gods"
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    You're the one who took my multi paragraph post and watered it down to "People can talk while fighting and fighting gods bad."

    Again all of this ignores what the initial post was trying to say and is also rather, hmm, bad story telling wise I feel, for again reasons outlined in the initial post.

    Again, you're the one who decided a large post discussing the nature of narrative, character developments and meta observations could be smacked down with three lines that ignore everything the post actually said and then got offended on behalf of two genocidal guys.
     
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