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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Psyga315 said:
    I'm sorry, but that was an awful Anti-Ironwood take that blatantly ignores the fact that people were on Atlas, including some of the people that got evacuated from Mantle only to literally be fish in a barrel.


    Probably because Salem compromised Atlas and Watts compromised Mantle.
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    It's not Anti-Ironwood, it's the objective truth. RWBY evacuated the populations of both Mantle and Atlas from a certain death situation.

    Ironwood's plan was doomed to failure from moment one because Ironwood made that plan while in a state of severe mental duress in which he was incapable of thinking rationally. The idea that he could navigate Ambrosius rules in a manner that would actually save Atlas is flatly ludicrous.

    And even if it was possible for that plan to have ever succeeded, by the time that Team RWBY actually got their hands on the Relic, it was already too late! Salem was already on Atlas, the Grimm were already on Atlas, the Farmlands were devastated, the shields were inoperable. Raising Atlas would literally acomplish nothing except maybe causing everyone to freeze to death before Salem killed them
     
    Oh, I see we have the usual people spouting the 'Ironwood had a great plan in fucking off to space with limited space, supplies, and no way to get more, while abandoning the majority of his population to die from the cold and grimm, and RWBY was evil, what with planning to save as many people as possible' horseshit.
     
    Raising Atlas after Salem had already landed would save no one, because there is grimm gunk all over the agricultural district and Salem would be reforming there in time.
    Raising Amity was the initial plan and it could of worked. Raising Atlas was never going to work.

    As for why they made the portals aimed for Vacuo, it was because Vacuo was essentially the last Kingdom standing. Beacon is still crawling with Grimm and Haven is still in shambles with the deaths of who knows how many huntsmen as well as Headmaster Lionheart being dead.

    As for why not just putting Atlas back up where it was, as Psy said Mantle and Atlas were compromised. I mean the defenses of both cities were caput and there is the matter of Immortal Angry Witch still being there. So honestly making portals to Vacuo was the best option they could make, especially since they only had less than a god damn hour to think of it and put it into action.
     
    Pugman said:
    Raising Amity was the initial plan and it could of worked.
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    What? Raising Amity to defend Atlas demonstrably did not work, either nobody was coming or Atlas could not hold long enough for them to come. Raising Amity to rally a giant army and kill Salem also wasn't going to work because no amount of force can kill Salem, there is no victory in strength after all (you should perhaps explain this to Ironwood Ruby). Reestablishing global communication would have had some positive effects, but wasn't directly going to defeat Salem.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    What? Raising Amity to defend Atlas demonstrably did not work, either nobody was coming or Atlas could not hold long enough for them to come. Raising Amity to rally a giant army and kill Salem also wasn't going to work because no amount of force can kill Salem, there is no victory in strength after all (you should perhaps explain this to Ironwood Ruby). Reestablishing global communication would have had some positive effects, but wasn't directly going to defeat Salem.
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    And no one here said it would help bring an army to kill Salem. -.-

    The initial idea for Amity was indeed to restore global comms. That was an objective both Team Protagonist and Team Ironwood were all in agreement on. With global comms back up it would be easy to communicate with others and make plans and push Salem back. However after being spooked by a chess piece and a skype call Ironwood abandoned the comm plan in favor of just taking Atlas and flying away to forever go "Nener nener you can't get our Staff!" at Salem from a "safe" distance. Meanwhile Team Protagonist: Ruby Side chose to take that Amity plan for them self, with the plan being to warn the world about Salem so everyone else could prepare for whatever comes next no matter what happens to them in Atlas while also trying to hold out hope that someone would come and pull their ass out of the fire. It was a gamble, and it did not work 100% how Ruby wanted it to, but they still got the word out about Salem to the world. So now the rest of the world at least has time to prepare for whatever happens next.
     
    mr_stibbons said:
    What? Raising Amity to defend Atlas demonstrably did not work, either nobody was coming or Atlas could not hold long enough for them to come. Raising Amity to rally a giant army and kill Salem also wasn't going to work because no amount of force can kill Salem, there is no victory in strength after all (you should perhaps explain this to Ironwood Ruby). Reestablishing global communication would have had some positive effects, but wasn't directly going to defeat Salem.
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    And it'd be even worse since Salem would still have Monstra, Hazel, Watts, the Hound, and Emerald, since the circumstances leading to their death/defection wouldn't happen.

    And the idea of them playing keep away with the Staff might not be in their best interests given that the entire reason why they're in Atlas to begin with was because Raven had them play keep away with the Lamp instead of her. (not to mention that when presented with the chance to ditch the Lamp and be done with it, Ruby refused to leave Brunswick Farms without the Lamp)

    And unlike with Penny, they wouldn't be able to loophole the Staff so they get away with two Creations instead of just one. Had they done Amity, Atlas would have Sokovia'd and there'd be no Statesman/Thor: Ragnarok parallel to bail them out.
     
    Making portals to Vacuo is the worst possible option, if they for some reason had to make the portals at all (they really didn't, they could have just used the staff to keep Atlas flying for a bit longer while they evacuated normally). Mistral is alive and well, their only issue being a lack of Huntsmen yes... which would be solved if the Atlesians evacuated to Mistral, seeing how they have huntsmen. Same with Vale, and even there it's only Beacon that's overrun. Vacuo meanwhile, in addition to being the most impoverished and most xenophobic of the kingdoms, is also literally the next target for Salem, so they'd be in danger very soon anyway.
     
    Jakobstj said:
    Making portals to Vacuo is the worst possible option, if they for some reason had to make the portals at all (they really didn't, they could have just used the staff to keep Atlas flying for a bit longer while they evacuated normally). Mistral is alive and well, their only issue being a lack of Huntsmen yes... which would be solved if the Atlesians evacuated to Mistral, seeing how they have huntsmen. Same with Vale, and even there it's only Beacon that's overrun. Vacuo meanwhile, in addition to being the most impoverished and most xenophobic of the kingdoms, is also literally the next target for Salem, so they'd be in danger very soon anyway.
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    Or hell, go for Argus, which is basically the Atlas away from Atlas.

    "BUT WHAT ABOUT CORDO-"

    Pretty sure no one is gonna put up with her nonsense after her antics almost got Argus destroyed, especially since Ruby outright brought up why Ironwood isn't to be trusted to literally everyone in the world.
     
    Yes yes, RWBY is the devil for saving people instead of abandoning the world to die. Look, let's be serious for a moment. No matter how much people insist that killing people would save them somehow, nobody who doesn't already believe that is going to be convinced. The fact that believing that requires disregarding the show itself only further hurts your nonsense.
     
    It is the grimdark year of 40,000. An eternal war continues to rage, Why? How? Whom? All of these are questions forgotten in the ancient violence and blood-soaked fields. The name Ironwood whispered in hallowed prayer and curse by two implacable foes. Truly, it has always been this way and will always be this way so long as the Roosterteethicon continues to shine it's hateful glare on an uncaring galaxy while the thirsty laughter of the algorithm continues to ring.
     
    newgman said:
    Yes yes, RWBY is the devil for saving people instead of abandoning the world to die. Look, let's be serious for a moment. No matter how much people insist that killing people would save them somehow, nobody who doesn't already believe that is going to be convinced. The fact that believing that requires disregarding the show itself only further hurts your nonsense.
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    Yes it is quite silly that people think RWBYs plan of killing most of the people in Mantle and Atlas was a way to save them, I agree.
     
    Jakobstj said:
    Making portals to Vacuo is the worst possible option, if they for some reason had to make the portals at all (they really didn't, they could have just used the staff to keep Atlas flying for a bit longer while they evacuated normally). Mistral is alive and well, their only issue being a lack of Huntsmen yes... which would be solved if the Atlesians evacuated to Mistral, seeing how they have huntsmen. Same with Vale, and even there it's only Beacon that's overrun. Vacuo meanwhile, in addition to being the most impoverished and most xenophobic of the kingdoms, is also literally the next target for Salem, so they'd be in danger very soon anyway.
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    No they could not evacuate normally. -.-
    They TRIED to evacuate normally by using Schnee ships to fly down to the crater to pick them up, but Ironwood ordered his forces to SHOOT THEM ALL DOWN. As for trying to get Atlas military ships, that would still mean fighting off Atlas soldiers.
    And again, they are on a time crunch because of both Ironwood's ultimatum AND the fact that Salem was not going to stay down forever. They did not know how long it would take her to reform, so they needed to go and needed to go now.

    And again, Vacuo was the only option. It's the only Kingdom with an active Academy. It's the only Kingdom that (to their knowledge) is the only one not trying to pick up the pieces after terrorist attacks. And lastly it does indeed have Salem's next target. So they have a large group of people they need to move, make sure have a place to be protected at, and get themselves to the next area and prepare for Salem's next move.

    Jakobstj said:
    Yes it is quite silly that people think RWBYs plan of killing most of the people in Mantle and Atlas was a way to save them, I agree.
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    Do you have proof of this claim?
    Do you have proof that RWBY killed anyone in Mantle or Atlas?
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Or hell, go for Argus, which is basically the Atlas away from Atlas.

    "BUT WHAT ABOUT CORDO-"

    Pretty sure no one is gonna put up with her nonsense after her antics almost got Argus destroyed, especially since Ruby outright brought up why Ironwood isn't to be trusted to literally everyone in the world.
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    Why the fuck would Cordo have a problem taking in the survivors of her kingdom?
     
    Psyga315 said:
    My point is that even if it's just "twenty or so people", that it might also be the case that they couldn't just include more people into the shot due to time/budget/tech constraints and so the "twenty or so people" could just be the indicator of more, sort of like how people argue there wasn't a single hole in Mantle's wall, but multiple and that we only got to see the one to indicate it.
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    Except my argument wasn't just down to the number of people on screen but the fact that Adam had to stage an assassination of an actually beloved figure and cover it up in order to justify his attack on Mistral. If Adam and his ideals were as as popular as he claims he would not need to do this, he could have just dethroned Sienna via popular support. So again, a disingenuous read on an argument built on ignoring its main contents to prop up a deliberate misunderstanding.
    Pugman said:
    let Hazel in, and despite the big guy being nothing but polite she would have none of it
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    Gee, its almost like a guy who works for the humans that got one of her lieutenants to engage in a mass terror attack that killed thousands of civilians is not someone she wants knowing the location of their secret base of operations.

    Seriously, the idea Sienna hated Hazel on the principle of being human alone rather than cos he was an outsider to the organization in the nerve center of the WF's operation, whom works for the people who helped Adam do the Attack on Beacon just comes off as trying to do a shitty read on her character that ignores all context on purpose.
     
    Pugman said:
    And again, Vacuo was the only option. It's the only Kingdom with an active Academy. It's the only Kingdom that (to their knowledge) is the only one not trying to pick up the pieces after terrorist attacks. And lastly it does indeed have Salem's next target. So they have a large group of people they need to move, make sure have a place to be protected at, and get themselves to the next area and prepare for Salem's next move.
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    So they have a large group of people that need to be protected, and the best place for them is the one place that they know is going to be attacked next? What kind of insane troll logic is that? Vale is safe, they know that. Mistral is safe, and clearly doesn't need that many more Huntsmen considering they all decided it'd be fine to leave, including SSSN.
    Pugman said:
    Do you have proof of this claim?
    Do you have proof that RWBY killed anyone in Mantle or Atlas?
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    Yes. Yes I do. Cinder clearly states that they managed to evacuate thousands. And going by Oscars statement of there being millions of people that Ironwood would be abandoning, the two cities of Mantle and Atlas have at least populations in the hundreds of thousands. We saw very little to no signs of civilians being injured by Grimm, meaning most of the population is still alive. If only a few thousand, 10000-20000 if we're very generous, survived... then yeah, RWBY killed tens of thousands of people by destroying their city and only giving them an hour to evacuate.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    And unlike with Penny, they wouldn't be able to loophole the Staff so they get away with two Creations instead of just one. Had they done Amity, Atlas would have Sokovia'd and there'd be no Statesman/Thor: Ragnarok parallel to bail them out.
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    They didn't need the Staff for Amity, it was taking its existing functions to greater heights with a refit instead of using the Staff to make up the difference like they did with Atlas.
    Jakobstj said:
    Yes it is quite silly that people think RWBYs plan of killing most of the people in Mantle and Atlas was a way to save them, I agree.
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    That was never their plan. Refusing to abandon them to die is different from killing people, even if they weren't sure of how to save them at the start, and Ironwood literally shot down attempts they made to evacuate Mantle which would remove a lot of the reasons they didn't want him to leave with Atlas in the first place.
    excalibur2008 said:
    Why the fuck would Cordo have a problem taking in the survivors of her kingdom?
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    Would she have had the room or resources for it? More than an actual Kingdom from what the people making these plans would know?
     
    Pugman said:
    And no one here said it would help bring an army to kill Salem. -.-

    The initial idea for Amity was indeed to restore global comms. That was an objective both Team Protagonist and Team Ironwood were all in agreement on. With global comms back up it would be easy to communicate with others and make plans and push Salem back.
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    No, Ironwood is quite explicit in his intentions. He is aiming to kill Salem, not just push her back, and Amity is a means to that end.
     
    Jakobstj said:
    We saw very little to no signs of civilians being injured by Grimm, meaning most of the population is still alive.
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    Might be because it's too costly to put injuries on different models. They brought up how hard it was to make new outfits for the group for a single occasion, so it's no stretch of the imagination to say that they weren't able to make them injured.

    mr_stibbons said:
    He is aiming to kill Salem
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    Except that he can't kill Salem...

    Not that he wouldn't have known. {glares at Ruby}
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    And given the alternative was Ironwood killing everyone, even your amazingly cynical and generally bullshit math has RWBY come out ahead.
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    The alternative at the time they made that decision was to... not kill two cities worth of people. They could have stopped Ironwoods evil bullshit, and then gone on to do literally anything else.
     
    Am I the only one who finds taking Cinder's assessment of numbers rather odd?

    Am I also the only one who finds glossing over the fact that Salem & Ironwood's actions will have killed metric tons of people since V7?

    Am I alone in thinking that these takes ignore the actual dialogue?

    Yang: Let's try the quick version. Can you make a bunch of doorways in Atlas that open at a single spot in Vacuo?
    Ambrosius: Sure! I'll just need coordinates and specs for each door, an explanation for bending space and time to account for the much greater traffic on one side and the single point of exit on the other.
    Weiss: Okay, that's about what we expected. So, we need to funnel everybody through a central location first.
    Ambrosius: You're going to have to tell me more about this central location. For starters, uh, where is it?
    Yang: Here. A place like these Vaults. Wherever they are, they're not part of Remnant. Only accessible if you know the right way in. Seems like a safe enough place for thousands of refugees.
    Ambrosius: You kids are either smart or much more foolish than you realize. (sighs) I'm going to need a reference?
    Weiss: Oh, we've got one.
    Weiss: People enter from Atlas and Mantle on one side... and leave on the other side, with a one-way ticket to Vacuo.

    Like for one, the word thousands is being used here again which could either indicate its just being used as a place holders to convey "Big numbers" or could indicate that when Oscar said millions he was referring to the rest of the world which makes more sense contextually anyway.

    But I also feel the whole "Everybody" of Weiss's should be noted along with the fact that if RWBY & Co didn't save everyone with that plan when we see the doorways opening everywhere there's people, that I am pretty sure we'd have been, you know, shown that, rather than just seeing empty streets.

    Or in other words, these claims remain baseless and boring.
     
    Jakobstj said:
    The alternative at the time they made that decision was to... not kill two cities worth of people. They could have stopped Ironwoods evil bullshit, and then gone on to do literally anything else.
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    Such as evacuate as many people as possible from two cities overrun by Grimm, one of which is freezing over from lack of heat, getting them far enough away from Salem that they have time to regroup, care for the wounded, and plan their next action OH WAIT THAT'S WHAT THEY DID.
     
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