Remove ads

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Reader mode
Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
    Last edited:
  • Staff Post
    • excalibur2008 said:
    And if Atlas was missing any of the shit it needed to survive, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE FUCKING POINTING IT OUT TO SHOOT DOWN IRONWOOD'S PLAN. Since that's kind of an important thing, so no you don't "be subtle" about it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Everything from the end of Volume 7 to the end of Volume 8 is over 3 days. There's no time to figure out everything they need and get an accounting of it all.

    Plus, James 'I shot a sitting Councilor', 'My soldiers are visibly afraid of being in the same room as me', 'I almost executed one of my soldiers for talking back', 'I am visibly hanging onto my last thread and I keep lashing out at everyone' Ironwood is not exactly the kind of person you challenge. Especially since the people who do challenge him have 1) been declared fugitives, 2)shot off the edge of the Knowledge Vault Entrance, 3) killed via gunshot in the infirmary, and 4) almost got shot in the back.

    I said nothing about being subtle, so I don't know why you bring that up.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    And if Atlas was missing any of the shit it needed to survive, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE FUCKING POINTING IT OUT TO SHOOT DOWN IRONWOOD'S PLAN. Since that's kind of an important thing, so no you don't "be subtle" about it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    We've been reduced to spamming all caps? Classy.

    Also please point out how you reason with the man who shot two people for talking back and almost shot a third one.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    And if Atlas was missing any of the shit it needed to survive, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE FUCKING POINTING IT OUT TO SHOOT DOWN IRONWOOD'S PLAN. Since that's kind of an important thing, so no you don't "be subtle" about it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Really? When? You tell me at which point between Ironwood hatching his stupid plan and the moment he died where he would have possibly entertained any notion that wasn't his? Who was supposed to tell him? When were they supposed to do it? How were they supposed to do it without being imprisoned or shot? Come on, Screamy, we're all ears.
     
    Erinyes said:
    Really? When? You tell me at which point between Ironwood hatching his stupid plan and the moment he died where he would have possibly entertained any notion that wasn't his? Who was supposed to tell him? When were they supposed to do it? How were they supposed to do it without being imprisoned or shot? Come on, Screamy, we're all ears.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    There was the time RWBY told him it was a bad idea - oh wait. Or the time Oscar talked to him - oh wait again. Or Sleet - shit never mind. Marrow tried to - thank god for Winter. Ummm...
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    There was the time RWBY told him it was a bad idea - oh wait. Or the time Oscar talked to him - oh wait again. Or Sleet - shit never mind. Marrow tried to - thank god for Winter. Ummm...
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It's like expecting someone to tell Stalin that purging the officer corps is a really bad idea in the 1930s. I mean, which scientist was supposed to wipe the piss stains off their trousers to buck Ironwood? Which fucking scientists do we see hanging out with Ironwood? The one who left to join the resistance?

    "Someone would have said X." That's such a bullshit cop-out. People don't tell murderous dictators "that won't work." And why would they right at that moment? The flaws with Ironwoods plan are all medium-long term. In the very short term - at least prior to Salem destroying the shields that Atlas need to keep the city pressurized - the plan would have worked for a given value of working.

    Of course, this all ignores that everyone licking Ironwood's Ironwood seems to not have noticed that even the loss of said critically important for the plan to work shield grid wasn't enough to deter James from still attempting to go ahead, which would have lead to everyone dying on a much shorter timetable than even Salem was likely to achieve.
     
    Also, mostly an aside, but at what point did Ironwood share his plan with anyone outside his small cadre of direct minions? Like, did any scientists know, did the councilors, did any captains in the military or Specialists?

    Cos I don't see Ironwood going "We have a magical staff, it will fix our problems by moving Atlas somewhere else." So who exactly is going to be telling him his plan is bad, who's even going to have the faintest idea of what's going on?
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    There was the time RWBY told him it was a bad idea - oh wait. Or the time Oscar talked to him - oh wait again. Or Sleet - shit never mind.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    So again didn't come up, so not an actual thing. You know what with the conflict being about saving a few versus trying to save everyone.

    But hey let's ignore that and claim the writers expected the audience to be a bunch of turbo nerds that put more thought into the situation than really the majority of any writers would.

    Seriously when in the fucking hell has any writer ever gone that deep into logistics and resource management?
     
    Last edited:
    excalibur2008 said:
    So again didn't come up, so not an actual thing. You know what with the conflict being about saving a few versus trying to save everyone.

    But hey let's ignore that and claim the writers expected the audience to be a bunch of turbo nerds that put more thought into the situation than really the majority of any writers would.

    Seriously when in the fucking hell has any writer ever gone that deep into logistics and resource management?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    What, you can't come up with a reasonable Watsonian rebutal so now you're going to shift goal posts to the Doylist perspective? Well, unfortunately, I don't personally know Miles Luna, Kerry Shawcross, Eddy Rivas, or Kiersi Burkhart. I don't know how cognizant they are of the physical and logistical limitations of living on an island in space. And neither do you. So in the absence of that sort of personal knowledge, I can only speak to my own knowledge and experience. But I will say that I don't see the narrative taking Ironwood's side here. There's no narrative through line that supports Ironwood's actions. So I have no idea why you would resort to Doylist reasoning to attempt to defend Ironwood's plan.
     
    Erinyes said:
    Well, unfortunately, I don't personally know Miles Luna, Kerry Shawcross, Eddy Rivas, or Kiersi Burkhart.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    You don't have to because it's pretty clear few writers ever do because few people actually give a shit about it.

    I would have though two cities the size of Atlas and Mantle only having a few thousand people instead of the few million they should have would have made that clear.

    But nah let's ignore the whole obvious conflict being about whether to save a few or try to save everyone thing they made pretty clear when the reason they were saying May was being like Ironwood was because she wanted them to pick Mantle over Atlas in favor of something nobody ever brought up despite yes you have to bring it up or it's not a thing.

    Erinyes said:
    But I will say that I don't see the narrative taking Ironwood's side here.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    No, they just accidentally do that by how sadly underdeveloped RWBY's side is from having them keeping secrets when arguing Ironwood shouldn't despite him pretty much doing the same thing they are aka planning to tell people later, or deciding they won't pick between Atlas and Mantle and outside of calling for help not do much to help either because they got stuck with the not allowed to do much this volume because the cast needs to be temporarily downsized and Ren really needs that semblance upgrade that's not going to amount to much and the one time it actually would help the writers need it not to. Oh and the whole them possibly killing more people than Ironwood's plan might have.
     
    Last edited:
    excalibur2008 said:
    Bending the space/time continuum is less complicated than what sounds like just an upgraded version of all of Atlas' existing stuff?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It has fewer moving parts, fewer goals, and doesn't need to function for as long. So, while the physics might be more complicated, the overall construction is far simpler and having the vault as an example makes the physics part not their problem.

    excalibur2008 said:
    And if Atlas was missing any of the shit it needed to survive, SOMEONE WOULD HAVE FUCKING POINTING IT OUT TO SHOOT DOWN IRONWOOD'S PLAN. Since that's kind of an important thing, so no you don't "be subtle" about it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    It's worth noting that Ironwood has a history of ordering bad plans and not having anyone push back against them. Most notably, flying a fleet into Vale was an awful idea, with almost no ability to help with the asymmetric warfare Cinder was engaged in, and the blockade of Atlas served no militarily coherent purpose, especially when compared to its nominal goals. "Bad at strategic planning" is basically one of Ironwood's character traits.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    It's worth noting that Ironwood has a history of ordering bad plans and not having anyone push back against them. Most notably, flying a fleet into Vale was an awful idea, with almost no ability to help with the asymmetric warfare Cinder was engaged in, and the blockade of Atlas served no militarily coherent purpose, especially when compared to its nominal goals. "Bad at strategic planning" is basically one of Ironwood's character traits.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    They were pushed back against, the push back was that it would unnerve everyone. The problem is there wasn't much of a better idea proposed and not doing Ironwood's ideas in those cases probably wouldn't have changed much.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    They were pushed back against, the push back was that it would unnerve everyone. The problem is there wasn't much of a better idea proposed and not doing Ironwood's ideas in those cases probably wouldn't have changed much.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    There was no internal pushback and in both cases doing literally nothing would have been better, as his plans actively made things worse. Not flying a fleet to Vale would have decreased unrest in the city, and thus decreased Grim activity, and prevented Salem from suborning his robots. Similarly, not blockading his own capital would have massively decreased internal unrest, allowed for better international relations, left more military resources available to defend mantel, and potentially allowed for increased imports to supplement the Amity refit.

    His ideas had no upsides and plenty of downsides, even before you try to start proposing better ideas, like bringing a specialist team that could actually engage in asymmetric warfare to value, and preferably doing it covertly.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    There was no internal pushback
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Because militaries don't go around refusing to follow orders just because they don't like them. And it's hard to say something is illegal if the governments involved sign off on it.

    and in both cases doing literally nothing would have been better, as his plans actively made things worse. Not flying a fleet to Vale would have decreased unrest in the city, and thus decreased Grim activity, and prevented Salem from suborning his robots.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    And then the Breach happens and people are freaking out by terrorists unleashing Grimm in Vale. And the lack robots doesn't change anything what with the Fall starting because Pyrrha was manipulated into eviscerating someone. And if you don't think Cinder would have set someone else to be the unlucky bastard in that situation without a Penny as an option I have a bridge to sell you.

    Similarly, not blockading his own capital would have massively decreased internal unrest, allowed for better international relations, left more military resources available to defend mantel, and potentially allowed for increased imports to supplement the Amity refit.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    If you ignore how Salem's decision to attack in force was motivated by the belief that Ozpin would have talked Ironwood into not doing that anymore and him acting like Salem wanted him to was getting Atlas off the radar so she wasn't even suspecting Amity.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    And then the Breach happens and people are freaking out by terrorists unleashing Grimm in Vale. And the lack robots doesn't change anything what with the Fall starting because Pyrrha was manipulated into eviscerating someone. And if you don't think Cinder would have set someone else to be the unlucky bastard in that situation without a Penny as an option I have a bridge to sell you.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    The Breach would of gone about the same, since the military at most did clean up after RWBY and their allies did most of the ground work.
    For the Fall sure Cinder could of had another scheme, but because of the schematics she got lucky in swiping from Ironwood had information on Penny and all Atlas tech she was able to make a Fall bigger and grander than what she probably could of done otherwise. Also if the people that stood and fought back during the fall didn't have to deal with the machine army then that would of meant more man power available to help push back the grimm and white fang. Heck if not for the Atlas Paladins and Knights then Weiss and Blake would not of had much reason to split up when they did, meaning Blake would likely of not had to deal with Adam alone.
     
    Pugman said:
    The Breach would of gone about the same, since the military at most did clean up after RWBY and their allies did most of the ground work.
    For the Fall sure Cinder could of had another scheme, but because of the schematics she got lucky in swiping from Ironwood had information on Penny and all Atlas tech she was able to make a Fall bigger and grander than what she probably could of done otherwise. Also if the people that stood and fought back during the fall didn't have to deal with the machine army then that would of meant more man power available to help push back the grimm and white fang. Heck if not for the Atlas Paladins and Knights then Weiss and Blake would not of had much reason to split up when they did, meaning Blake would likely of not had to deal with Adam alone.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    You seem to be forgetting that the reason the army was deployed was because the Fall was too much for the existing by defenders. So no it probably would have gone just as bad without the army.

    Also I fail to see how Penny getting torn apart would be worse than Cinder pulling it off with a human since you know she gets to accuse the academies of turning people into berserker murderers which was about what she was going for anyway.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    "Bad at strategic planning" is basically one of Ironwood's character traits.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Hell, this was shown outright in V2 with Glynda acusing him of basically wanting to wave his dick around by marching his army in one direction and given we know how Roman responded to a group of four huntresses discovering the plan, a very big army flying over and stomping through the woods is liable to cause a similar reaction and also catch Cinder's notice who would send warning too.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    Because militaries don't go around refusing to follow orders just because they don't like them. And it's hard to say something is illegal if the governments involved sign off on it.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    A) This is not a counter argument. It is support for the argument that we wouldn't have seen internal pushback against Ironwood's plan in Atlas, regardless of its quality.
    B) The reason you would expect interal military pushback is that those plans were bad, which has nothing to do with legality and there absolutely should be other advisors and strategists who can step in and question a general's decisions.
    C) Yes, you can absolutely say something is illegal, even when the government is signing off on it. Governments get sued all the time, because the very concept of laws means that they don't change on a whim.

    excalibur2008 said:
    And then the Breach happens and people are freaking out by terrorists unleashing Grimm in Vale. And the lack robots doesn't change anything what with the Fall starting because Pyrrha was manipulated into eviscerating someone. And if you don't think Cinder would have set someone else to be the unlucky bastard in that situation without a Penny as an option I have a bridge to sell you.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Airships over a friendly city are still not an appropriate response to the breach and I already outlined ways Ironwood not having his fleet there would have changed the fall. None of them had to do with Penny or Pyrrha.

    excalibur2008 said:
    If you ignore how Salem's decision to attack in force was motivated by the belief that Ozpin would have talked Ironwood into not doing that anymore and him acting like Salem wanted him to was getting Atlas off the radar so she wasn't even suspecting Amity.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    This ... doesn't make coherent sense? I'm not sure how it's supposed to even relate to what I said.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    A) This is not a counter argument. It is support for the argument that we wouldn't have seen internal pushback against Ironwood's plan in Atlas, regardless of its quality.
    B) The reason you would expect interal military pushback is that those plans were bad, which has nothing to do with legality and there absolutely should be other advisors and strategists who can step in and question a general's decisions.
    C) Yes, you can absolutely say something is illegal, even when the government is signing off on it. Governments get sued all the time, because the very concept of laws means that they don't change on a whim.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    This is you just saying it's bad or it's illegal just because you don't like the idea. That's not how that works.

    Epsilon Rose said:
    Airships over a friendly city are still not an appropriate response to the breach and I already outlined ways Ironwood not having his fleet there would have changed the fall. None of them had to do with Penny or Pyrrha.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    In other words you ignored what actually caused the Fall, aka the mass panic from someone getting ripped apart fallowed by Cinder ranting about the schools. Ironwood not being there doesn't ducking make that magically go away.

    Epsilon Rose said:
    This ... doesn't make coherent sense? I'm not sure how it's supposed to even relate to what I said.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    Salem was already going to attack Atlas regardless of what Ironwood doing becuase she wanted Atlas off the board.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Ironwood not having his fleet there would have changed the fall.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Yeah.

    It would have made the Battle of Beacon a whole lot more lopsided in favor of Cinder.

    excalibur2008 said:
    Salem was already going to attack Atlas regardless of what Ironwood doing becuase she wanted Atlas off the board.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    To be fair, the only reason Atlas was next was because RWBY was going there to ditch the Relic...

    And that was only because Raven decided to try and take the Relic out in her infinite wisdom of "if I grab the item the bad guy is after, I will somehow be safe." Then ditching that burden of keep away to her daughter when she poked holes in the plan.
     
    Last edited:
    excalibur2008 said:
    This is you just saying it's bad or it's illegal just because you don't like the idea. That's not how that works.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Ok. Let me be perfectly blunt. If a general cutting the executive branch out of the equation and declaring martial law without anyone being able to act as a check and balance is "legal", then the nation in question is a military dictatorship in all but name. Because name a modern nation where this is the case and then narrow it down to nations where anyone here would actually want to live. Because sure, maybe that's how it works.

    In fucking North Korea.

    Because in sane countries that people live in by choice, the civilian government is the one who declares martial law. Mark A. Milley can't just scream "I'm in charge now!" Even Rome, the nation that invented the concept of dictatorship, had the executive branch approve a dictator taking absolute control of a country if there was an emergency.
     
    Last edited:
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top