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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Prior to the embargo, Mantle's problem was the entire Atlesian social and economic system, of which Ironwood is certainly not the bearer of the full blame. The SDC, the attitudes of Atlesians, and the other 3/5ths of the Council all are responsible for Mantle's situation and to a greater extent than just Ironwood. And I haven't seen anyone say otherwise. However, it was absolutely Ironwood that was responsible for the embargo that had dogged Mantle for the last several months prior to the events of V7. Jacques merely exacerbated an already untenable situation.
     
    Erinyes said:
    Prior to the embargo, Mantle's problem was the entire Atlesian social and economic system, of which Ironwood is certainly not the bearer of the full blame. The SDC, the attitudes of Atlesians, and the other 3/5ths of the Council all are responsible for Mantle's situation and to a greater extent than just Ironwood. And I haven't seen anyone say otherwise. However, it was absolutely Ironwood that was responsible for the embargo that had dogged Mantle for the last several months prior to the events of V7. Jacques merely exacerbated an already untenable situation.
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    It's also probably worth pointing out that Mantle is not a monolith. From my memory, Jacques had about a third of the vote even before Watts's fuckery - from captive SDC workers, lumpen looking to become SDC workers, rentier parasites, slumlords, etc.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    The Ironwood bashing is so lopsided that people are actively ignoring his disability.


    View: https://dextixer.tumblr.com/post/682695047944323072/dadanime-crimson-caracal-k-lets-be-real
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    Frankly this is what happens when the protagonist half of your conflict is undeveloped because for some reason that escapes me the writers don't want to write for the title characters any more than they have too.

    Christ this is why

    1) I have hopes for Icequeendom since the bio page shows at least Shaft remembers Ruby is supposed to be the main protagonist.

    2) I'm going to say it. Luz Noceda from The Owl House is everything Ruby Rose should be.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The Ironwood bashing is so lopsided that people are actively ignoring his disability.


    View: https://dextixer.tumblr.com/post/682695047944323072/dadanime-crimson-caracal-k-lets-be-real
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    Dude. That's a 28 note post. If you're finding stuff like that, you're probably going looking for it. You can find literally every bad take under the sun if you really want to.

    I could bring up a post saying RWBY committed genocide if I wanted to.
     
    I really don't care about Ironwood discourse, whatever mistakes RWBY made, they're young adults, Ironwood is an adult general, more to the point he's made more and worse mistakes and never once owned to them. I'm tired of seeing people constantly twisting the show to justify supporting a brutal quasi-fascist dictator for the same reason I'm sick of people supporting Adam or saying he should have basically had Ilia's plot. You're standing problematic characters and you need to stop. Like I'm not gonna accuse anyone here of supporting those characters for the reason a lot of people on youtube are supporting them (They're both white male, vaguely right-wing authority figures in a show largely focused on women some of who are LGBT) to be clear, not saying everyone who supports Ironwood is a quasi-fascist. but the point remains, RWBY's mistakes do not justify Ironwood's actions and I'm tired of seeing people try their best to justify him or those actions in some way.

    Ironwood was a brutal dictator who didn't care for the poor, repeatedly screwed over his friends while also demanding absolute loyalty from his own soldiers, refuse to listen to advice, or own up to his mistakes, was in bed with companies that literally enslaved and maimed people, maintained a horrifically racist status within Atlas, and threaten to, and then did, shoot people for the crime of annoying him. Deal with it.
     
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    Teen Spirit said:
    whatever mistakes RWBY made, they're young adults
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    And why exactly do people think treating RWBY like dumb kids that don't know what they are doing is a good counter argument?

    You can't say that and also say people should listen to them and do what they say.

    Look either they are profession Huntresses and get the respect that comes with that plus the consequences if they screw up. Or they are children in over their heads and as such should stay out of the way. They don't get to be both.

    It's also a bad pro-RWBY argument to make considering how frankly demeaning it is.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    Look either they are profession Huntresses and get the respect that comes with that plus the consequences if they screw up. Or they are children in over their heads and as such should stay out of the way. They don't get to be both.
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    Unfortunately, the show tries to double dip whenever it gets the chance, which may explain why the flip flop between "they're kids!" and "they're not kids!"

    Ruby declaring that they're no longer kids and that they don't need an adult? The show treats this like it's an epic scene that shows the kids taking up their own path, right down to how the final episode for that volume was called "Our Way".

    FNKI laying down their lives to defend Atlas from Salem's Grimm (and may be confirmed dead since we don't see them afterwards)? No, no, they're just kids.
     
    Kids shouldn't have to be leading the charge on the battle for our planets future and the climate catastrophe that is already running rampant, but they are and they are right in what they say. The same applies to RWBY, IE the MCs are put in a situation they shouldn't be, tasked by circumstance to be fixing the fuck ups of the older generations, and they have the capabilities to do it, but they shouldn't have to.

    There's a great line that applies to this:

    "The world should have protected you, but instead you have been chosen to protect it, what an honor, what an injustice."
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    And why exactly do people think treating RWBY like dumb kids that don't know what they are doing is a good counter argument?

    You can't say that and also say people should listen to them and do what they say.

    Look either they are profession Huntresses and get the respect that comes with that plus the consequences if they screw up. Or they are children in over their heads and as such should stay out of the way. They don't get to be both.

    It's also a bad pro-RWBY argument to make considering how frankly demeaning it is.
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    Look, who has more expectations put upon them, a 21 year old fresh out of college or a world leader? Ironwood being in the position he is means he should be able, and is expected, to handle a great deal of responsibility, far more than the average Huntsman or Huntress and yet this man has constantly failed to live up to those responsibilities. The situation RWBY was in the past few Volumes, particularly the last one, is not one the should have been in, proper authorities should have handled the situation, but they didn't. In a time of Crisis, Ironwood proved himself unfit for the office, though frankly his behavior before hand proved that a dozen times over.

    And here's two points that need to be made. RWBY's actions do not justify Ironwood's reaction and RWBY's mistakes are utterly dwarfed by Ironwood's. I could go on about how RWBY withholding info at the time made sense considering what they just went through with Ozpin and the fact that what they saw of Atlas beforehand gave them a lot of reason to distrust Ironwood. But that is kind of completely eclipsed by the first two points. Ironwood is a terrible leader who makes repeated bad decisions, stabs people in the back and yet treats any real dissent like the gravest treason against him.

    Psyga315 said:
    Ruby declaring that they're no longer kids and that they don't need an adult? The show treats this like it's an epic scene that shows the kids taking up their own path, right down to how the final episode for that volume was called "Our Way".

    FNKI laying down their lives to defend Atlas from Salem's Grimm (and may be confirmed dead since we don't see them afterwards)? No, no, they're just kids.
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    RWBY and co have been forced by circumstances to grow up before they should. They should be in school still like FNKI and CFVY but they're not. Which is terrible in itself. These circumstances do mean RWBY have more reasonability and expectations then most people their age but like I said, you don't put the same level of expectations on people just because their both adults; experience, position and power play a lot into that. If Weiss made mistakes ruling a country I'd be a lot more forgiving because she's far less experienced at it than Ironwood, she also probably wouldn't screw up as bad as Ironwood.
     
    Zam said:
    "The world should have protected you, but instead you have been chosen to protect it, what an honor, what an injustice."
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    One thing I want to add onto this is that the situation RWBY & FNKI are put in sucks, but RWBY are choosing to embrace that responsibility because they feel its necessary and despite circumstances and people trying to force them not to. FNKI on the other hand got conscripted and sent to die on the front lines because their Headmaster is an oaf.

    These are not the same situation.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    Look, who has more expectations put upon them, a 21 year old fresh out of college or a world leader?
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    The 21 year old if she keeps wanting world leaders to do what she wants them to.

    It's not not her fault she's just a kid, but you should still do what she wants is a terrible argument.

    If they are too young to know what they are doing, they are too young to listen to.

    Whining about the adults doesn't change that, and is frankly just bullshit to distract from how paternalistic that argument is.
     
    If the previous and current generation can't/won't own up to mistakes and make actual effort to change and stick to it, then it will always fall to the next generation to pick up the pieces.
     
    excalibur2008 said:
    The 21 year old if she keeps wanting world leaders to do what she wants them to.

    It's not not her fault she's just a kid, but you should still do what she wants is a terrible argument.

    If they are too young to know what they are doing, they are too young to listen to.

    Whining about the adults doesn't change that, and is frankly just bullshit to distract from how paternalistic that argument is.
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    That is a highly reductionist and frankly quite inaccurate take on my argument. My general point was that RWBY due to their age and relative experience should not have been in the position they were but Ironwood's utter failures as a leader forced them to do what they did. A better leader wouldn't have neglected Mantle like he did, a better leader would not have closed to borders when Ironwood did, a better leader would have had plans in place for something like Salem attacking, etc etc.
     
    Pugman said:
    If the previous and current generation can't/won't own up to mistakes and make actual effort to change and stick to it, then it will always fall to the next generation to pick up the pieces.
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    And they don't get a pass on their mistakes either.

    Teen Spirit said:
    That is a highly reductionist and frankly quite inaccurate take on my argument.
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    The argument is about how people are infantilizing RWBY to absolve them of any poor decision making on their part while insisting people should trust the decisions they are apparently also supposed to be too young to make correctly.

    And frankly I fail to see how saying it's all on the adults for not doing what the kids that are apparently incapable of making these sorts of decisions on their own wanted despite THE KIDS APPARENTLY BEING INCAPABLE OF MAKING THESE DECISIONS is that much of a better argument.

    Teen Spirit said:
    a better leader would have had plans in place for something like Salem attacking, etc etc.
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    Considering the information he had up until a few moments before he knew she was coming and the endgame of the plan he shared with everyone months ago it was probably use army to storm her throne room and kill her ass.

    So yeah kind of useless.

    If only someone had known about the big problem with his kill Salem plans in the months they had before she showed up /s.
     
    Pugman said:
    Though to be fair I doubt anyone could plan for River Styxx, Soylent Green, and Flying Moby Dick
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    Sure, but if Ironwood hadn't bailed on Mantle and hadn't put out a warrant of arrest for RWBY & Co, he would have known it was coming ahead of time, either by having forces on the ground capable of seeing and reporting it, or RWBY and Co being able to contact him and send the message giving time to at least potentially adjust.

    Similarly, the fact that Atlas has no Grimm shelters or methods for dealing with Grimm attacks is another major oversight that signals the level of hubris on display at any and every given time.

    Mantle was neglected, & Atlas was so insulated it couldn't cope the moment it was pressed, both were failed by their leaders, & especially Ironwood.
     
    Teen Spirit said:
    RWBY and co have been forced by circumstances to grow up before they should. They should be in school still like FNKI and CFVY but they're not. Which is terrible in itself. These circumstances do mean RWBY have more reasonability and expectations then most people their age but like I said, you don't put the same level of expectations on people just because their both adults; experience, position and power play a lot into that. If Weiss made mistakes ruling a country I'd be a lot more forgiving because she's far less experienced at it than Ironwood, she also probably wouldn't screw up as bad as Ironwood.
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    I mean training to be a Huntsmen or being one forces one to grow up no matter when you start. I mean CVFY in the book when they first appeared in the show came back after being to late to save a village from a Grimm Attack. With the only survivors being a family a six who where killed while CVFY was battling the Grimm.
    We also know it's not unheard of 1st years to be killed during their time in the Academies with the example of Hazel sister.
     
    Zam said:
    Sure, but if Ironwood hadn't bailed on Mantle and hadn't put out a warrant of arrest for RWBY & Co, he would have known it was coming ahead of time, either by having forces on the ground capable of seeing and reporting it, or RWBY and Co being able to contact him and send the message giving time to at least potentially adjust.
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    The giant whale flying into Mantle? Yeah, no one would have seen that coming, since the scanners and scouts were taken out.

    The river of Grimm? You mean the river that's miles and miles from Mantle and it took Yang's group chasing the Hound to even notice it?

    Not sure what @excalibur2008 means by Soylent Green unless they mean the Dust or the Hound.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The giant whale flying into Mantle? Yeah, no one would have seen that coming, since the scanners and scouts were taken out.

    The river of Grimm? You mean the river that's miles and miles from Mantle and it took Yang's group chasing the Hound to even notice it?

    Not sure what @excalibur2008 means by Soylent Green unless they mean the Dust or the Hound.
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    Soylent Green - "IT'S PEOPLE!"
    The Hound - "That was....a person...."
     
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