RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Psyga315]

May as well bring up the idea that there's probably no such thing as a bad show getting better, and that it's pretty much Stockholm Syndrome the whole way through.

Click to shrink...

To which I counter that idea that a bad show can get better.

Remember, RWBY began pretty lukewarm all things considered before Volume 3 happened and changed the narrative quite a lot.

 

[Delphisage]

To which I counter that idea that a bad show can get better.

Remember, RWBY began pretty lukewarm all things considered before Volume 3 happened and changed the narrative quite a lot.

Click to shrink...

>countering an essay with a TVTropes entry

Except didn't Season 3 end up being incredibly divisive and self-destructive to its popularity, and that the twists were seen less as "taking risks" as they were "just terrible"? When I dropped the show on that finale, I know that I was hardly alone in doing so.

 

[Psyga315]

Except didn't Season 3 end up being incredibly divisive and self-destructive to its popularity, and that the twists were seen less as "taking risks" as they were "just terrible"?

Click to shrink...

Yes it did, but keep in mind that in spite of that, RWBY managed to be a pretty big success with the remaining audience, as well as attracting new interest to the show.

 

[Tekomandor]

May as well bring up the idea that there's probably no such thing as a bad show getting better, and that it's pretty much Stockholm Syndrome the whole way through.

Click to shrink...

I didn't find your point in the first few paragraphs, so I'll just respond to your post rather than the essay which seems to be totally unrelated to RWBY or your point.

Fundamentally this idea betrays a total lack of comprehension of any sort of creative process. Of course a show can get better over time. Staff can change, technology can improve, bugedts can get higher, everyone involved might learn from their mistakes. To say that anyone who thinks a television show can improve is psychologically disturbed is absurd.

 

[Slater]

>countering an essay with a TVTropes entry

Except didn't Season 3 end up being incredibly divisive and self-destructive to its popularity, and that the twists were seen less as "taking risks" as they were "just terrible"? When I dropped the show on that finale, I know that I was hardly alone in doing so.

Click to shrink...

Not really.

I mean Pyrrha's death was controversial but even that cooled once it became clear that it really was something that originated with Monty.

But V4 didn't suffer a loss of viewership from it at all. The first episode of V4 had more YT views and was more watched then any V3 episode for example. Anyone who dropped it after V3 was replaced.

And V3 was still widely held as the best Volume of the show until this year with V6 finally starting to edge it out, which I think it will unless they just face plant in the last 4 episodes.

 

[Renewal]

Like honestly, the first six episodes of V6 (excepting maybe The Lost Fable, which while crucial structurally in the narrative, is basically a big pause since there's so much lore being dumped) are some of the best narrative writing RWBY's ever done: an intro to the revelation of Ozpin's secrets, the big moment of shock and feelings of betrayal, an interlude of despair and questioning, and a violent catharsis and realization that they cannot just give up.

It's kinda damning with faint praise, but Miles and Kerry have certainly had a much better idea of how to structure and pace around RWBY's episodic format as of this volume, not to mention where to focus narrative time. Previous volumes have been sorta okay in the abstract or season overall outline, but the episode to episode pacing was atrocious; V5 is okay if you just say RNJR and Qrow take some time to rest and recuperate and investigate, but in execution it just dragged and dragged with them idling in the house—the abstract disguised how much nothing was actually happening while other characters moved into place. Whereas V6's first half at least had a very solid of what each episode was meant to do and stuck to it without any real, pointless idling.

 

[devilkingx2]

May as well bring up the idea that there's probably no such thing as a bad show getting better, and that it's pretty much Stockholm Syndrome the whole way through.

Click to shrink...

Depends entirely on what's wrong with the show, some things can not be fixed like if the premise was never going to work unless totally ignored/abandoned/changed by the execution or if fixing it requires a radical genre and main cast change or something.

But most issues can definitely be fixed in a long running show, whether or not they will is an entirely different question

>countering an essay with a TVTropes entry

Except didn't Season 3 end up being incredibly divisive and self-destructive to its popularity, and that the twists were seen less as "taking risks" as they were "just terrible"? When I dropped the show on that finale, I know that I was hardly alone in doing so.

Click to shrink...

Well...

Lots of RWBY fans didn't care about the plot and likely dropped the show in 4 or 5, so i can see people dropping it in 3 if they never wanted an actual plot and prefetred a more SoL style

Lots of people didn't like the dark tone of volume 3, wanting to protect their ships and waifus or being too overly attached to the characters, etc. Perhaps wanting a chill slice of life saturday morning cartoon to relax to.

Lots of people thought that the fights became sloppy crap for half of V3 when technically analyzed and were disillusioned by the lack of quality compared to monty, especially since the later half had aborted potentially major fights

But overall season 3 was one of the most popular and one of the the best regarded, all of the 3 above groups are fringe and some of them are so fringe i wouldn't call them groups.

 

[thesevenwielder]

Press X to Doubt




Back to the Apathy. So Grimm can't survive in captivity... But a whole bunch of 'em were locked up in a basement? Isn't that kind of the very definition of captivity?

 

[Psyga315]

Back to the Apathy. So Grimm can't survive in captivity... But a whole bunch of 'em were locked up in a basement? Isn't that kind of the very definition of captivity?

Click to shrink...

I think the idea is if captivity isn't suiting them, they'll off themselves or find a way to escape.

 

[Sworl]

I mean, that's the difference between "Gods as believed in by RL people" and "Gods inside a fictional story that no-one believes in". RL Gods might be "assigning personality traits to forces of nature" and so be used to teach lessons about human limitations, but completely-in-fiction Gods are as much "real" characters as any other fictional character written by the same author. They just tend to be more powerful than the other characters of the story. The first can't do the "bring everyone back to life and let everyone live forever " as you said, because RL people would come to disbelieve the whole religion pretty fast when the claimed effects don't work and it doesn't help as a moral. The second gods, given that they were written in a fantasy world to begin with, can be written as being able to "bring everyone back to life and let everyone live forever" without the need for the message to be helpful with dealing with real life.

Indeed, the RWBY gods apparently have a variety of ways to easily disable death, from immortality to reincarnation, but apparently just left death running as default because fuck mortals I guess. And if the RWBY gods were going for some "dying is an important lesson" nonsense, I hope by the end of RWBY it's one that the gods get to experience themselves because fuck that.

Click to shrink...

See the problem with that is in over 99% of stories that people are going to want to tell that feature gods (including RWBY), the divine equivalent of Reed Richards is Useless is going to come into effect.

I mean what you are describing here -

Well to begin with neither form of immortality that the gods have been shown to grant would have the "critically sick and injured would suffer forever" deal, given Salem-Immortality is instafix and Oz is reincarnate on serious injury. And IMO it's still better to be trapped "forever" (note- not actually forever given true immorality, as there would almost-always a way out even if it would take hundreds of years), or be permasick/injured than die.

But that doesn't matter, as with as much control over life as they demonstrably have, none of that would have to be a problem. Even if you limit them to what they've done onscreen (so no increase in resources or reduction in birthrate or otherwise fixing those problems with their immense powers), just give everyone reincarnation on death and memory continuance like Oz.
Have some kind of opt-out of reincarnation if some actually for whatever reason wants to permadie (I imagine this would be rarely taken enough for it to be a personal "go to either Godpool and ask personally deal). Have "new" souls be created only if there is literally no-one in the world in the "dead pool" waiting for a new body, which is going to be superrare.

The problem of death (which is THE problem of all life) is now solved, through what the GoL has shown to do basically on a whim.

Click to shrink...

- is pretty cool idea in theory, but it isn't very relatable now is it?
And I say that knowing that RWBY could arguably be described as a Shonen meets Magical Girl meets Fantasy meets Adventure meets Coming of Age story.

Honestly I can think of no great and/or famous story or setting where, barring a few strange exceptions which are almost never the protagonists, human beings are immortal.
Even in fantastical and spiritual ones like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings, it just isn't a thing.
Stories hold a mirror up to the world and the inevitability of death is one of the most defining, if uncomfortable, truths of life and thus by extension the majority of human fiction. Always has been and always will be.

Long story short, if a work fiction has nigh-omnipotent gods in it, don't expect them to be willing and/or able to wave their hands and fix the ills of the world. At best they'll help those that help themselves or be little more than setting elements; at worst they'll be one of the aforementioned ills of the world.

We talking RWBY? Cause I don't consider Oz's waiting room for his GoL chat an actual afterlife, and that's the closest AFAIK RWBY comes to actually showing one.

And even if there is an afterlife, just an afterlife existing without further context doesn't instantly change my mind. An afterlife of "fire pits" is worse than "infinite life with illness". Heck, an afterlife of grey void a la Limbo would be IMO "infinite life with illness". And I'd treat "happy afterlife" claims with skepticism and unless it were proven I'd still take the "guaranteed infinite life with illness" option over "claims of happy afterlife that I can't know for sure" if the two were presented. A guarantee of immortality, even if not Salem/Oz levels of amazingness, is something I would need something equal certainty, not just better "quality", to trade away because getting duped in that scenario would be the literal worst.

Click to shrink...

Do you believe that what CRWBY intends for it to be is something similar to the classical Christian afterlife (totally great if totally vague) or as you seem to prefer to think (for whatever reason), something hellish or a sort of weird oblivion?
Do you believe that if you ever asked them, they'd tell you the latter is canon rather than some version of the former?
Keep in mind that this is the final destination of all the shows beloved characters. There is absolutely no reason for CRWBY to say 'it sucks' and several reasons not to.

Not that any of this is ever likely to matter in story.
Certainly nobody in the cast is going to say anything like 'Wait this raises some big metaphysical, theological and anthropological questions about life and the nature of the universe' regarding Jinns big reveal.

Right now I think it would be best if RT just rebooted the whole damn franchise. They're trying to build a house on a foundation of sand, and it's clearly showing. Reboot the show, make Jaune a competent hunter-in-training from the getgo, remove the horrid White Fang and racism subplot, make the Silver Eyes a powerup from the start instead of the retcon at the end of v3 (Miles went on record during v3 AMA that the eyes were originally just meant to tie Ruby to her mother), stop flip-flopping back and forth about what Aura and Semblances are and what they do...

So many improvements to be made, a reboot would make it so much easier.

Click to shrink...

But they'll still watch it. I could name some fans on this board who probably wouldn't even send an angry email if it happened.

Click to shrink...

Perhaps, but irrespective of who would or wouldn't watch RWBY in this scenario; it doesn't change the fact that (as many people have noted) your proposal about rebooting the show is, frankly, a really dumb-ass idea.

Spoiler: Rebooting RWBY in its 6th season

It's not like anyone here would stop watching if they did. I bet if I asked every fan on this site individually if they would watch the show if it was rebooted or not, I would get a 'yes' answer from 90% of the crowd.

Click to shrink...

Yes, that would be almost as sad as someone who consistently claims to find the show awful, obsessively following it for almost six seasons.

 

[thesevenwielder]

Ruby Rose: "We don't need no grown ups to watch out for us!"

Me, an intellectual: "Bitch adults have been consistently bailing you out through this entire series. You'd be dead or worse a dozen times over if it weren't for them.

 

[hellgodsrus]

Ruby Rose: "We don't need no grown ups to watch out for us!"

Me, an intellectual: "Bitch adults have been consistently bailing you out through this entire series. You'd be dead or worse a dozen times over if it weren't for them.

Click to shrink...

Oh, I see we're doing the 'bringing up a completely different complaint out of the blue because my last one got trounced' thing again. Fun.

 

[Zam]

Am I the only one who doesn't get the "Adults saved you so many times, Ruby" complaint?

Cos like, from memory, adults saved Ruby and co maybe... three times, at most, Ruby & Yang once when they were kids but they were only in that situation cos of Tai's negligence in the first place. Once Qrow saving RNJR from Tyrien and Maria giving Ruby guidance on her eyes (While Qrow was getting drunk not ten feet away). The rest of the time the adults were either not present or getting their asses kicked as much as everyone else. Like, unless we're calling CFVY adults in this context then the counter goes up to four.

But given RWBY were the one's who actually found out information on Cinder and co and damaged their operations while the adults were still stumbling around, Ruby froze the dragon, Yang got Raven to not steal the Relic, Blake stopped Haven from being blown up... Yeah not really feeling the "You're just kids who only survived due to adults" vibe here.

Also I'm not counting Ozpin stalling Cinder cos he lost and Pyrrha ended up dying to slow her down as well.

I think the idea is if captivity isn't suiting them, they'll off themselves or find a way to escape.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, plus it is clear that the two Grimm became many so they went from 'captives' to 'ruling a new den' basically and were killing people indirectly for several days/weeks so likely didn't feel the need to off themselves, plus with all the broken down walls ETC exactly how trapped they were is questionable even if some of them are new, Bartlby implied he didn't both to seal up the way he got them back I believe?

Long story short, if a work fiction has nigh-omnipotent gods in it, don't expect them to be willing and/or able to wave their hands and fix the ills of the world. At best they'll help those that help themselves or be little more than setting elements; at worst they'll be one of the aforementioned ills of the world.

Click to shrink...

This is true in that having the gods just wave their hands and ensure no conflict cos everyone is immortal, comfortable ETC wouldn't make for a good or relatable story. However as you yourself noted they can also be the cause of ills in the world and thus a potential problem to be dealt with, or just set dressing to get the plot rolling then leave which I think is more what we who are critical of them are talking about. That and it kind of bounces between in universe and out of universe stuff, cos the above is out of universe story driven points, while 'they could do X and are jerks for not' is in universe. The two can combine though if the story goes "Yes they could do that but found people dying more interesting for their 'experiment' than people not dying/suffering, and so are a problem, especially cos they committed and or are plotting genocide." if that makes sense?

 

[Psyga315]

Ruby Rose: "We don't need no grown ups to watch out for us!"

Me, an intellectual: "Bitch adults have been consistently bailing you out through this entire series. You'd be dead or worse a dozen times over if it weren't for them.

Click to shrink...

Okay, I brought this up in a different thread and @Liar mentioned that the line's pretty out of context to what she's trying to say.

Yes, they have bailed them out, but they're not gonna hang on their every word. If that was the case, they would have just obeyed Ozpin when he was all "chillax, bros, let me carry this Grimm Lure onto the train!"

 

[devilkingx2]

like, from memory, adults saved Ruby and co maybe... three times, at most, Ruby & Yang once when they were kids but they were only in that situation cos of Tai's negligence in the first place. Once Qrow saving RNJR from Tyrien and Maria giving Ruby guidance on her eyes (While Qrow was getting drunk not ten feet away). The rest of the time the adults were either not present or getting their asses kicked as much as everyone else. Like, unless we're calling CFVY adults in this context then the counter goes up to four.

Click to shrink...

The victory at haven was impossible without raven on multiple levels (such as raven being the one who convinced cinder/the villains to fight before getting the relic and taking out the one who could solo the whole team) so that's +1

 

[Zam]

The victory at haven was impossible without raven on multiple levels (such as raven being the one who convinced cinder/the villains to fight before getting the relic and taking out the one who could solo the whole team) so that's +1

Click to shrink...

While kind of true, Raven wasn't actually trying to help and or save the cast, so much as using them as a distraction so I am unsure that really counts as her saving anyone.

 

[Psyga315]

Okay, I decided to make a sheet counting the times they needed an adult to solve things.

Didn't need an adult, you say?

Feel free to add to it. So far they did more things without adults than with.

 

[Mahrac]

The victory at haven was impossible without raven on multiple levels (such as raven being the one who convinced cinder/the villains to fight before getting the relic and taking out the one who could solo the whole team) so that's +1

Click to shrink...

I'm... honestly not sure about that. If Raven couldn't get the relic in a way that would let her split up Salem's group and bug out with a fight to cover her I don't think she would have showed at all. So then you cut it down to Oscar/Lionheart, Qrow/Hazel, and then Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald all get double teamed.

Then we have to figure out who those are, how they shake out, if/how Ruby's eyes trigger and if the numbers disparity means she's not interrupted this time, ect. I don't really want to go over all of this, but a condition that probably removes Vernal and Raven from the fight changes a lot.

 

[Zam]

Okay, I decided to make a sheet counting the times they needed an adult to solve things.

Didn't need an adult, you say?

Feel free to add to it. So far they did more things without adults than with.

Click to shrink...

Honestly I feel like a lot of those really don't work, Cinder 'helped' activate Ruby's silver eyes, Weiss hiring a pilot, RNJR hanging around a house in V5 cos a villain was stalling them... Plus given Yang is still hallucinating, shaking ETC I don't think Tai or Ironwood helped her 'get out of her' PTSD to be honest.

I'm... honestly not sure about that. If Raven couldn't get the relic in a way that would let her split up Salem's group and bug out with a fight to cover her I don't think she would have showed at all. So then you cut it down to Oscar/Lionheart, Qrow/Hazel, and then Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald all get double teamed.

Then we have to figure out who those are, how they shake out, if/how Ruby's eyes trigger and if the numbers disparity means she's not interrupted this time, ect. I don't really want to go over all of this, but a condition that probably removes Vernal and Raven from the fight changes a lot.

Click to shrink...

I mean if Raven just portaled and ran would they even got to Haven or just try and blow it up then return later once they found Raven?

 

[Mahrac]

I mean if Raven just portaled and ran would they even got to Haven or just try and blow it up then return later once they found Raven?

Click to shrink...

They would have either fought at the camp or just left if she refused since Raven couldn't have portaled out, remember that she needs an anchor. Tai and Qrow are clearly out, she knows Yang is with Qrow, and Vernal is with her so that one wouldn't go anywhere.

She could go Raven I guess, but then she's trying to fly away from a Maiden.

 

[Zam]

They would have either fought at the camp or just left if she refused since Raven couldn't have portaled out, remember that she needs an anchor. Tai and Qrow are clearly out, she knows Yang is with Qrow, and Vernal is with her so that one wouldn't go anywhere.

She could go Raven I guess, but then she's trying to fly away from a Maiden.

Click to shrink...

I mean she could have just run after they left and she promised to help them, but even without that why is Tai out as an option if the purpose is just "get out of dodge" she could just portal in with her tribe and or Vernal and then run off.

 

[Mahrac]

I mean she could have just run after they left and she promised to help them, but even without that why is Tai out as an option if the purpose is just "get out of dodge" she could just portal in with her tribe and or Vernal and then run off.

Click to shrink...

Two reasons that I'm considering. First off, and lesser of the two, she's been avoiding him and is a noted coward much as she pretends otherwise. Going with just Vernal means she can't keep doing that and going with the tribe means even if she gets away fast her followers could see her in a week position. And that's assuming he's not involved with or knowledgeable of Ozpin's story to get Glynnda and they can round up other local enforcement to arrest them with the cover of the 'bandits' thing.

For two, he lives on an small island which makes for a small search area so she needs to get off it. The immediate area has severely increased Grimm and long distance transport is extremely limited between said Grimm activity, Atlas closing it's borders and trying to get refugees out of Vale. Plus again Glynnda.

 

[devilkingx2]

I'm... honestly not sure about that. If Raven couldn't get the relic in a way that would let her split up Salem's group and bug out with a fight to cover her I don't think she would have showed at all. So then you cut it down to Oscar/Lionheart, Qrow/Hazel, and then Cinder, Mercury, and Emerald all get double teamed.

Then we have to figure out who those are, how they shake out, if/how Ruby's eyes trigger and if the numbers disparity means she's not interrupted this time, ect. I don't really want to go over all of this, but a condition that probably removes Vernal and Raven from the fight changes a lot.

Click to shrink...

Cinder starts using her maiden powers and stomps RWBY + JNR at the same time. None of them stand even the remotest chance, especially if emerald knocks out ruby when she tries to use her eyes and mercury guards cinder while she recovers.

Or if cinder is smart and takes out ruby first (not necessarily kill, just defeat)

 

[Zam]

Two reasons that I'm considering. First off, and lesser of the two, she's been avoiding him and is a noted coward much as she pretends otherwise. Going with just Vernal means she can't keep doing that and going with the tribe means even if she gets away fast her followers could see her in a week position. And that's assuming he's not involved with or knowledgeable of Ozpin's story to get Glynnda and they can round up other local enforcement to arrest them with the cover of the 'bandits' thing.

For two, he lives on an small island which makes for a small search area so she needs to get off it. The immediate area has severely increased Grimm and long distance transport is extremely limited between said Grimm activity, Atlas closing it's borders and trying to get refugees out of Vale.

Click to shrink...

I'm not really sure I agree, in that why would she even need to interact with him at all and then look 'weak'? From what we saw she didn't appear right in front of him at the end of V5 and if 'leave the areas' makes her look weak then having the camp pack up will have already done that.

This is true, but it is also super far away from Cinder and co and presumably has boats or airships she and her bandits can steal. Also not sure that Patch has increased the Grimm numbers and I am pretty sure Atlas isn't doing anything with Vale anymore.

Cinder starts using her maiden powers and stomps RWBY + JNR at the same time. None of them stand even the remotest chance, especially if emerald knocks out ruby when she tries to use her eyes and mercury guards cinder while she recovers.

Or if cinder is smart and takes out ruby first (not necessarily kill, just defeat)

Click to shrink...

Then Adam blows up the Academy cos Blake humiliated him XD

 

[Mook]

Am I the only one who doesn't get the "Adults saved you so many times, Ruby" complaint?

Click to shrink...

And for every time the kids have been saved by adults the adults have been saved by the kids.

Qrow saves RNJR from Tyrian, but then he let's his guard down and gets poisoned. Its only because of Ruby's quick and brutal thinking and JNR stepping back in that Qrow isn't killed right there. And then RNJR save him both from poisoning and the Nuckelavee.

Ironwood helps out at the Fall of Beacon, but it is Ruby that fixes his massive mistake of bringing robot armies to a hacker fight.

Ruby also froze the dragon as you noted.

Jaune<Weiss and Blake all played a big part in keeping Hazel too occupied to murder Ozpin/Oscar. And Ruby was the one who took Leo out of the fight.

Team RWBY saved Qrow from the Spinx and tied it down so that it could be beaten. Jaune and Ren protected the passengers so that the rest of the group could focus on the Grimm.

Etc.