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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • I think the other thing to take into consideration is that, despite the degree of improvement, RWBY is an amateur project. Right now it's gotten a lot more polish than Volume 1 did, but that's thanks to the amount of support it's gotten.

    They've made plenty of mistakes, learned from that, and tried again, and kept on going. And probably the biggest mistakes have been in managing expectations.

    Compare the tone of the trailers to the first Volume of RWBY. I've heard plenty of complaints about the tone shift from the trailers to the actual show, and that's because there are expectations given in the trailers don't match directly with the show.

    Volume 2 is better than Volume 1 is at managing expectations, but the finale dragged down an otherwise alright season. It does give some hints about what's coming next, but it didn't do enough.

    Volume 3 is where everything came to a head. The first five episodes have a radically different tone than the next seven, and people were rightly throw off by it. Whether or not you liked it, there were plenty of details in those seven episodes that hadn't been foreshadowed. The status quo was upended, and move the show in a different direction.

    Volume 4 again had plenty of problems. They tried to do too much with too little, and as a result, everything felt blander for it. It felt like they didn't have enough to do what they wanted, and at the same time, that not much really happened.

    Every season they go beyond the limits of their storytelling capabilities, and overall the show suffers for that. But at the same time, because of how greatly they challenge themselves, they learn a lot.

    One more thing. I don't view the first three volumes as a prologue, so much as Act 1. If RWBY is around 10-12 volumes, which is about how long I always felt the show was going to be, then that reading makes sense. We'll see if that holds up, but if Volumes 1-3 are about a quarter of the total runtime, I'd be happy about that.
     
    Kaleidophoenix said:
    One more thing. I don't view the first three volumes as a prologue, so much as Act 1. If RWBY is around 10-12 volumes, which is about how long I always felt the show was going to be, then that reading makes sense. We'll see if that holds up, but if Volumes 1-3 are about a quarter of the total runtime, I'd be happy about that.
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    Given the expansion of the show to near full length Episodes, I'm betting Season 1-3 will make up a lot less than quarter of the final runtime.

    Nicholai said:
    Cool. Thanks!
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    The only thing that makes this bitter sweet is that Monty isn't here to play it. :(
     
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    Theory
    Part 1: Sienna Khan is alive

    I was thinking this due to the fact that Sienna's aura didn't shatter or show up in any way despite doing wat appears to be fatal damage- which is something that only showed up when Adam beheads Blake's shadow clone. But why would Sienna have a nearly identical semblance to Blake?

    Part 2: Sienna Khan is a pseudonym for Kail Belladonna

    We know that semblances can be passed down through family. In addition, due to how family members often resemble each other in thoughts and other internal processes, it would not be unheard of for different members of a family to have similar semblances. This could be how they would have similar semblances.

    In addition, we know names are important in Remanant. With a name of Kali (well known as a goddess of destruction) we can expect destruction to follow her. However, in the show we see nothing of the sort- so far. If Kali were to be Sienna, that name of destruction would be well given.

    Just my rambling idea
     
    djd said:
    Theory
    Part 1: Sienna Khan is alive

    I was thinking this due to the fact that Sienna's aura didn't shatter or show up in any way despite doing wat appears to be fatal damage- which is something that only showed up when Adam beheads Blake's shadow clone. But why would Sienna have a nearly identical semblance to Blake?

    Part 2: Sienna Khan is a pseudonym for Kail Belladonna

    We know that semblances can be passed down through family. In addition, due to how family members often resemble each other in thoughts and other internal processes, it would not be unheard of for different members of a family to have similar semblances. This could be how they would have similar semblances.

    In addition, we know names are important in Remanant. With a name of Kali (well known as a goddess of destruction) we can expect destruction to follow her. However, in the show we see nothing of the sort- so far. If Kali were to be Sienna, that name of destruction would be well given.

    Just my rambling idea
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    One problem; Kali's white.
     
    Except Kali would then be at odds with Ghira. That doesn't make sense. Don't they both advocate peaceful methods?
     
    Xalgeon said:
    One problem; Kali's white.
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    Part of my idea was for her to be able to manipulate her shadow clone into looking different from her


    UbeOne said:
    Except Kali would then be at odds with Ghira. That doesn't make sense. Don't they both advocate peaceful methods?
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    Do they? After all, from what we heard Ghira stepped down without a fuss- who else would convince him but his wife?

    Part of my crazy idea is that Kali is encouraging Blake to accept the violence through faking her death to force Blake to kill Adam and take back the White Fang through violent means as well as seeing what the worst humanity has to offer (seeing as that's what hunters and huntresses would go to stop) and eroding her morals one step at a time.
     
    Xalgeon said:
    One problem; Kali's white.
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    That's what stopped you? Not the fact that Sienna appears to be a tiger Faunus, while Kali is some sort of black cat like her daughter Blake? Or how Kali and Sienna (what we saw of her at least) seem to be completely different characters? :V

    Though speaking of that, relevant earlier post:
    mistakenot said:
    But speaking of ethnicities, considering Blake's parents (Ghira and Kali) does anyone else think the Belladonnas might be Indian or South Asian (insofar as it makes sense to use Earth terms for people from Remnant)? And before someone objects that Blake is too pale, there's a wide range of skin colors in South Asia: The Light Skin Allele of SLC24A5 in South Asians and Europeans Shares Identity by Descent
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    I do love the idea of Sienna surviving somehow, though mine is tied to her Semblance being bale to revive her, but having a massive Achilles heel if she activated it within a certain time frame (In this case before Adam stabbed her) which leaves her weakened.
     
    Zam said:
    I can't really agree, then again I can't take Adam seriously as anything more than a smug snake and the leader of a dangerous terrorist organization in Remnant being weak, and losing from one stab with no Aura crackling to a guy getting kicked around by a spider mech likely weaker than a Paladin in the trailers just doesn't sit right with me. Plus it just feels demeaning and boring.
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    The problem is that effectively this simplifies things just as it was supposed to be expanding. Blake was supposed to be moving beyond Adams reach because the stakes have been higher than her abuser.
    Only now it turns out her abuser is a world dominating super terrorist

    so yeah.

    One person put it like this ,I think it was something about make it so that Sienna Khan isn't over him but that he kills a friend who's a peer or under him. Because as it is the White Fang effectively is just an extension of Adam.
    And I understand simplification is a god-send, especially with this production, but it says something about what you cut out when you simplify. In some ways Adam losing would have been better because Blake had evolved beyond the need for making this about her ripping roaring Revenge Fantasy. By doing this on the exact same scenario and wheels that we were during the fall of Beacon.
    Particularly as we don't get to see any of this earned (the coup)we've just sort of seen everything play out during the Highlight Reel. Which, again, isn;t really all that interesting.

    Mainly I wrote this post because I'm frustrated as someone said Adams Ascension change things for Blake's story. It's the exact opposite! What happened kept It all exact same, exact same emotional stakes, the only thing that's changed is that Adam now has an army which he technically already had only now the Army is even more relevant to the overall narrative so now we still cannot escape this stupid domestic abuse plot.
    No wait

    it's not a stupid but be came stupid because it was unavoidable. Making the abuser as big in the world as they are in a victim's perspective.
     
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    [FIRST] Volume 5, Chapter 3: Unforeseen Complications
  • Threadmarks
    • Episode 3 is out.
    Before beginning, I saw Ghira's speech ahead of time, so my first segment is not necessarily chronological.

    OK we are opening with the preview scene. Also wow they have reporters and there's some WF reps there with the guards… Oh dear.

    The speech is overall good, though it feels weird that he started with 'man' over Faunus. Also his line about it being harder to discredit those who demonsie Faunuse the longer Adam goes unpunished would likely not go down well regardless. Given Faunus were unfairly demonized and mistreated for generations and humans don't get treated like they are 'all' bad for it.

    I loved his respect for Sienna Khan, go Ghira!

    Yeeeaaahhh asking people to leave their home (Most of them civilians) to save a kingdom that historically screwed them is not such a great plan Ghira :?

    Oh snap, so Illia's parents died in that Dust mine, and also she makes good points, Granted this is what Sienna Khan fought against, Adam wants to become as bad as the people she hates, so ya know, stone, glass houses on the term traitors Illia.

    Sun what are you doing!? Attacking her rather than countering her with words is not a good idea!

    Also I was really hoping for Sienna to come crashing in with an "I live!" thing and save the day :(

    Oh hey Oscar.

    Eh on Oscar Ruby stuff, but his admiration for Hunters is neat, also Ruby is good at helping with awkwardness.

    Oh snap Ozpin can posses Oscar! Well… this adds to some theories I was toying with,

    Nora is keeping it real.

    So Ozpin is cursed and has been walking the face of Remnant for ages, its strenuous and he eventually merges with the possessee?

    So the gods cursed him for failing to beat Salem, huh.. That raises a lot of questions.

    Hello Weiss!

    How could a cage or rope hold an Aura user?

    Renal I think is the spring maidens name.

    So they are ransoming her to her father, and Weiss is threatening them with Winter, love her smug tone XD

    Oh crap, Ironwood called Winter back!

    Dang I was hoping the villains would find out abut Oscar as they did Qrow, but kudos on Ozpin for deducing thing, of course the fact the head masters were all meant to be obedient to him really makes it clear it wasn't a team or group thing.

    Hah, Qrow's semblance is back.

    OK so Blake is one month behind, the current set up is either for a season finale in 1 month in universe time or in the next volume.

    Nora looks so unimpressed, I love it.

    Poor Oscar.

    Good maps of the camp, also Weiss can make a mini knight, that is so broken its amazing, though seriously how is rope holding someone with Aura?



    I wanted Sienna back :(
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Darmani said:
    The problem is that effectively this simplifies things just as it was supposed to be expanding. Blake was supposed to be moving beyond Adams reach because the stakes have been higher than her abuser. Only now it turns out her abuser is a world dominating super terrorist so yeah. One person put it like this I think it was something about make it so that Sienna Khan isn't over him but that he kills a friend who's apart of or under him. Because as it is the White Fang effectively is just an extension of Adam. And I understand simplification is a god-sent especially with this production. But it says something about what you cut out when you simplify. In some ways Adam losing would have been better because like had evolved beyond the need for making this about her ripping wearing Revenge Fantasy. By doing this on the exact same scenario and wheels that we were during the fall of Beacon. Particularly as we don't get to see any of this earned we're just sort of seen everything play out during the Highlight Reel. Which again is it really all that interesting
    Mainly I wrote this post because I'm frustrated as someone said Adams Ascension change things for playing story but that's the exact opposite what happened it kept Italy exact saying exact same emotional states the only thing that's changed is that Adam now has an army which he technically already had only now the Army is even more relevant to the overall narrative so now we still can escape this stupid domestic abuse plot. No wait it's not a stupid but be came stupid because it was unavoidable
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    This was very insightful, just to make sure I understand you correctly (Its late here, sorry)

    You are basically saying that just as the world and plot seemed to be expanding and the White Fang with it, Adam, cuts all of that down for the faction and makes it all about him by casually killing Sienna and taking her place. Thus, it simplifies the story but not necessarily in a good way as it makes the White Fang aspect all about him and his general violent attitudes and abuse of Blake (& Yang). So the emotional development of the story, or Blake's anyway, hasn't changed with the death of Sienna, Adam is technically more of a threat now, but he's ultimately in the same position he was before and Sienna is not close enough to Blake for her death to have real meaning, as where her being alive and involved could have made things go in unexpected directions.
     
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    Zam said:
    Good maps of the camp, also Weiss can make a mini knight, that is so broken its amazing, though seriously how is rope holding someone with Aura?
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    That wasn't really something new, remember when Winter was training Weiss in Volume 3? Right after they finished training, we saw that Weiss had actually summoned a tiny sword.
     
    Jakobstj said:
    That wasn't really something new, remember when Winter was training Weiss in Volume 3? Right after they finished training, we saw that Weiss had actually summoned a tiny sword.
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    Point, I think I imagined that was just the lack of power or focus, silly of me to not realize that even if that were the case she could control it to her advantage.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    cause what is more dramatic is a lot more important than what is technically allowable in their magic system. The important part of the scene is that Adam killed the White Fang leader and usurped her role. That's all that matters. Explaining how it works with the aura isn't all that relevant.

    Basically rules can be ignored if it makes for a better story.
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    Adam ignoring aura doesn't make RWBY a better story, at least not for me. I agree that Khan didn't need more screen time and I was even impressed that they'd kill her off so quickly despite having a complex design and a voice (which is usually a sign I expect a character going to be important many episodes later). Still, it leaves a lot of questions RT probably won't answer.
    I'm now less invested in every fight because I'll wonder "so when will they do this again?" And instead of focusing on where the story is going, I'm reaching for plausible in-universe reasons as why this can happen. I went into RWBY blind, expecting nothing, and one of the things that kept me here was the writers' budding magic system. But the writers have shown they're willing to ignore their self-defined system whenever it suits them, 5 volumes in. I can't help but feel cheated by this! If they do that, why should I care about the rest of the story?
    Okay, so after stewing over convoluted reasons how that can happen, maybe there's a simpler explanation. Maybe Adam just depleted Khan's aura in one hit and, for some reason, RT forgot to include the Tell of the aura crackle. Khan using all of her aura just to take one hit from Adam is bending the 'rules' in a way I can buy that is also dramatic. Maybe it's an honest animation mistake, or at least they can cover it up as one. I still don't think I should be doubting the writers of a show as much as this.
     
    Zam said:
    This was very insightful, just to make sure I understand you correctly (Its late here, sorry)

    You are basically saying that just as the world and plot seemed to be expanding and the White Fang with it, Ada, cuts all of that down for the faction and makes it all about him by casually killing Sienna and taking her place. Thus, it simplifies the story but not necessarily in a good way as it makes the White Fang aspect all about him and his general violent attitudes and abuse of Blake (& Yang). So the emotional development of the story, or Blake's anyway, hasn't changed with the death of Sienna, Adam is technically more of a threat now, but he's ultimately in the same position he was before and Sienna is not close enough to Blake for her death to have real meaning, as where her being alive and involved could have made things go in unexpected directions.
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    You got me until the end there. Its why I suggested there not BEING a Sienna (or 'sienna' being a peer or an underling effectively presenting the same argument) I know it was poorly written but THANKYOU for fully responding and trying to discern it. I editted for clarity.
    Effectively Blake's escaping my dark past from my abuser story upgraded the abuser so now he's as important to the overall as to her. A big part, my opinion, about dealing with abuse is painfully realizing how small your abuser is AND myopic your worldview. This isn't meant to condemn (which is why you don't START there) but something at the later stages as you realize how you deserve to be treated AND the conditions of your treatment fit and how to avoid them overall. you make your viewpoint bigger and not as subject to the mentality of your own victimhood OR the abuser.

    Now Adam IS as horrifically dangerous and poisonous as Blake (and yang) perceive him. That's not absolutely wrong but it doesn't change things. The plot train isn't taking us to new scenery and views but extending the current one. That said Sienna had to die OR replace Adam effectively. and I don't think you can have pseudo rapist (that's what he is he talks, walks, stalks, and is coded as abusive and sadistic and controlling menacing to females) in your plot and NOT indulge in his destruction by his victims anymore. Or at least it will feel disatisfying. You can't have the drunkard wife beater just die of a heart attack after having knocked out his wife left his trailer to the liquor story to get slimjims and cigs. Even if he dies as a result of the toxicity of his own hubris and left to do so alone because of how he treated his support (and its always a him that's the point of these things) its not satisfying for audiences and they feel the creators are at fault for the female's suffering.
    So Sienna nor Salem could execute him and take up his position as "leader of the dangerous fuanus terror group" But overall the action feels.. redundant or too quick as we don't establish him taking over. Just insert my frustrations on Renly Baratheon here but without my support of the character as he is less feckless politician and more "abusive sadistic ex"
     
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    Zam said:
    So the gods cursed him for failing to beat Salem, huh.. That raises a lot of questions.
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    Why do I get the feeling that Salem was one of the original creations of the God of Darkness and when he and his brother made up created humans etc, she got super pissed and is now trying wage a war on the heavens?
     
    mistakenot said:
    I don't think Rooster Teeth ever said there were no religions in Remnant, though I know the idea had some popularity as fanon in certain circles. I think they even confirmed the opposite (there are religions though the show doesn't focus on them), but I don't recall the citation.
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    They literally talk about religion in V3E6 ('it would go against centuries of religion,' said by Glynda when talking about why they don't reveal the maidens' existence), Qrow's story about the origins of Grimm and the relics in V4E8 talks about gods - the idea RWBY has no religion is fucking stupid and contradicted by the show on multiple occasions.
     
    mistakenot said:
    I don't think Rooster Teeth ever said there were no religions in Remnant, though I know the idea had some popularity as fanon in certain circles. I think they even confirmed the opposite (there are religions though the show doesn't focus on them), but I don't recall the citation.
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    The only confirmed Gods are the Gods of Light and Darkness and from what we have seen no one worships them and they seem to have fallen in obscurity since until Qrow explained who they were no one on team RNJR knew about them. Which would be kind of important on Remnant since it was the God of Darkness who made the Grimm in the first place.
    hellgodsrus said:
    They literally talk about religion in V3E6 ('it would go against centuries of religion,' said by Glynda when talking about why they don't reveal the maidens' existence), Qrow's story about the origins of Grimm and the relics in V4E8 talks about gods - the idea RWBY has no religion is fucking stupid and contradicted by the show on multiple occasions.
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    Except outside of that one line we have not seen any of the characters praying to said gods or any sort of religious worship though out the show and you would think the large cast of season 3 with characters form all over Remnant we would have at least gotten one person.
    Putting spoilers just in case.
     
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    Tython82 said:
    Except outside of that one line we have not seen any of the characters praying to said gods or any sort of religious worship though out the show and you would think the large cast of season 3 with characters form all over Remnant we would have at least gotten one person.
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    Do you know many religious people? They don't tend to just drop down and pray in the middle of the street. 'Oh my god' is a common enough expression that Yang says it multiple times (only time I can really remember is 'Oh my god you really exploded') but I think she says it again in V4. Perhaps (probably correctly) MMK felt that creating a practiced religion/religions would lead to awkward real world comparisons or issues with the portrayal being insulting or poor and just left it as 'there are religions, but we're not really going to go into detail on them'.
     
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