RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
 
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Hmmm...

It seems a bit weird to me that Tyrian has reached Salem's area so quickly. Assuming that the different scenes happen more or less at the same time then it means that the place Salem is in is quite close to mistral since Tyrian had like a day or two to get there (even if he could ride a controlled Grimm he won't be able to get far).

Well, unless they have a method of teleportation. But that doesn't seem right to me...
 
Well, Raven can do it, so not like it's unheard of.
Can she? I don't think that we have seen any evidence that she can teleport between continents, for all we know she heard about the shit that's going on in Beacon and has followed her daughter around for a bit.

It's just that from what we've seen semblances aren't that powerful.
 
Maybe not semblances, but magic fits given that Raven's portals and the ones that Cinder and her crew used to escape Qrow are identical.

Raven having access to magic makes sense as either Qrow is lying about his semblance or his semblances isn't turning into a bird and he does it via magic. And Qrow needs to be telling the truth or everything he said in a massive info dump is put into question.
 
Can she? I don't think that we have seen any evidence that she can teleport between continents, for all we know she heard about the shit that's going on in Beacon and has followed her daughter around for a bit.

It's just that from what we've seen semblances aren't that powerful.

Alternatively, and probably simplest answer, Salem and her lackies have a few aircraft at their disposal.
 
[Discussion] Volume 4, Chapter 12: No Safe Haven
I feel the episode was mostly wasted. The fight lacked urgency and the sense of danger, while the letter part communicated nothing we didn't already know.

In addition, Jaune's XL sword extension felt pointless. Unless I'm wrong it offers no additional reach, weights the same and doesn't include Dust upgrades. Why is it there?

On the positive side, Mistral is Rivendell. It looks spectacular. Yang is being properly badass once again.
 
Three words:

Stuck.
The.
LANDING!

Yeah, the finale was excellent. Barring that one animation continuity glitch with Nora where she had Magnhild over her back when it was actually lying out in the plaza.

Also...I WAS (partially) RIGHT ABOUT LEO!

Apparently Yang and Ruby did talk about Ruby running off before she left.

Yang cliffhanger, since we still don't know which way she went.

Finally, a post-credits stinger done well. I can just see Oscar screaming "I'm definitely not crazy! Yay!"

Credits song is a pun! It's a Yang song (I think it implies she's going after her mother, but hey, opinions may differ and I want the full lyrics before committing) and it's "Armed and Ready." *facepalm*

Ren: Death flags? I'm shoving your death flags up your ass, Nucky-boy!

Ooo, Jaune's sword has a new form. It's also a...nother sword. Somebody's been playing Bloodborne, I think, since he's basically packing Ludwig's Holy Blade now.

Also three more words:

Soundtrack nao, plz?
 
I think it will at least be one more season before a meaningful character death
 
A fairly unambiguous happy ending. Which is fine. A show is just as predictable if you can safely assume that things will get worse as it is if you can safely assume a happy ending.

I liked when Nora slapped Ren and basically said "I know that look in your eyes. You're about to go for a heroic sacrifice. Not today fucker."

Also turns out Ironwood was right not to trust Leo to handle the situation.
 
I haven't see the last episode (because I'm a pleb who insists on watching RWBY on YouTube) but it sounds like the pacing is mangled as my writing (hoho).

Though in reality, season 4 is more like, six anime episodes in average than 12.
 
I haven't see the last episode (because I'm a pleb who insists on watching RWBY on YouTube) but it sounds like the pacing is mangled as my writing (hoho).

Though in reality, season 4 is more like, six anime episodes in average than 12.

I'd say season 4's pacing wasn't great but it's the first time the show didn't say Pacing? What's that?

So overall. Season 4 is where RWBY finally got to the quality I expected going into Season 1.
 
Postmortem on Volume 4 as a whole:

I liked it.

Okay, probably some more depth would be required than that. When V4 started, I had the impression that it would end in one of two places, either with the gang having reunited just in time to deal with some threat/conflict, or with everybody's individual plotlines wrapped up in order to send them off so that they could meet at the start of V5. From the opening theme music on out, this was clearly the "let's get the band back together" season. The overarching theme was going to be "your world has been shattered, now deal with the fallout and get moving again."

My expectations were fundamentally accurate, so, yeah. I'd say "yay, me" or something, but RWBY's storytelling has never been particularly surprising. It's always been direct and straightforward, with the surprises coming in terms of specifics rather than in terms of generalities. This has, in fact, always been one of my pet peeves about the fandom: they expect things that aren't there, were never promised, aren't implied by the story, get annoyed when those things are absent, and get confused when things that are terminally obvious are waved in front of them. They complain about everything when they aren't in full hugbox mode, and many places are toxic and awful. And that's not even getting into the shipping.

So, basically, Volumes 1-3 placed our cast in a "closed world" setting of Beacon Academy. Then, they blew it up, shattered the eggshell, and dumped them, and us, into the greater outside world. It's obviously a mere coincidence, but it works brilliantly that this was the season that they changed from Poser to Maya, because the visual look of the show matched with the thematic change. The World of Remnant segments for this year helped to emphasize this--we got the summaries of the kingdoms (literally expanding the scope of the world), the Schnee Dust Company, the history of the Great War, etc. The first three volumes gave us our characters, with hints of what was around them; now, we were allowed to see the full depth of their stage. I have, in the past, been incredibly frustrated because Remnant seemed like an interesting anime-esque fantasy-with-scifi-elements setting and I wanted to know more about it, but having reached this point I now genuinely understand why the worldbuilding was held back on earlier on: it wasn't necessary for us to understand and appreciate what the characters were doing and who they were as people, and it would have just eaten up time that they didn't have. This year, we got those snippets throughout the year, from news reports Yang watched to the exploration of villages and banditry RNJR went through to the Ironwood/Schnee political discussions to the glimpse into Atlesian high society to our first look at Menagerie to showing us sea, rail, and foot travel.

Meanwhile, the decision to split the party gave us a chance to see each character on their own. As emphasized by Episode 11, the issues experienced by WBY all boiled down to a single commonality: You are an adult now, so embrace the decision to act as one. Yang was forced to confront post-traumatic stress after losing an arm; her struggles are purely personal and psychological, her obstacles those of herself. Weiss has external obstacles in the form of her father, brother, and social role to confront, but the core conflict was, again, of her choosing to live her life on her terms instead of having her life dictated to her by externalities. And Blake, of course, had to deal with her own flight instincts and trust issues while directly confronting the White Fang. RNJR, on the other hand, are grouped together because their personal issues are centered more around "coping" than "control." None needs to change things about their lives, but rather how they feel about being in their lives.

(It will be noted that Cinder, our we-love-to-hate-her baddie, goes through this same journey on the villainous side. That was a nice touch.)

Was all of this handled perfectly? Well, no. I've expressed my feelings in this thread previously, and it bears repeating: RWBY still has the same problem that it's had since Volume 1, which is that it just doesn't have the resources, as an animated show, to tell the story that it wants to tell and this makes them cut corners in order to jam everything into the runtime. We're not given enough time with any of WBY. We're given snippets for each, glimpses into their journeys, but they're not smooth. We're shown points A, B, and C, so that we see, for example, Weiss constrained by her father and her social role, her lashing out in frustration at those constraints, the blowback against that lashing out, and finally her decision to reject that role and live on her own terms. But we don't see the journey between those signposts; it's not a smooth flow. There's also that weird problem with Blake's timeline, with the implication that it took a long time to get from Beacon to that ship, where it would have been much better to imply that she spent more of those intervening months in Menagerie (that is, that her progression was de-synced from the others even though they all end up at the same place in the same timeframe), which would also have made Sun's presence a lot less creepy and weird (he followed her for six months and didn't announce himself? Strange, and only really explainable by him following her but never actually catching her, like he was a day or two behind the whole way until he finally caught up because the boats leave on a schedule). And while the ending episode finally gives us a bit of a look into the mind of Ruby, we don't get enough scenes with RNJR to really get shown that she's hurting inside. The decision to have her reveal her sense of grief, loss, and confusion-at-the-world-changing through her actions instead of her (like Jaune) words wasn't necessarily a bad one, but we don't really get to see it because of the storytelling limitations put on them by time--her "recklessness" is only really shown where she flings herself into the Qrow/Tyrian battle out of a people I love will not be hurt because of me! sense even when it's tactically foolish and gets Qrow hurt.

tl;dr on that: These sort of parallel plotlines work just fine in books where there are functionally infinite pages to tell those plotlines, and all you have to worry about is the patience of your audience (for all those people who complain about these things...well, George R.R. Martin sells a damn lot of books, so there's plenty of people not complaining). In a visual medium, the effectiveness of the storytelling depends on the time available to tell that story.

So as to pacing, I had no problems at all with the pacing of the season, because it started in the place where I expected and finished in the place where I expected. I had definite problems with the pacing of the individual plot sequences, because time limits made them choppy "hit the highlights" pathways instead of smooth roads through the storylines.

As to action scenes, I enjoyed the fight scenes throughout, and I honestly don't understand what some people have been complaining about. They looked fine to me and did their jobs. Nothing in V4 matched the sheer exhilaration of V1E8 ("Players and Pieces"), but frankly nothing from the other seasons did as well, not even the V2E4 fight with the Paladin and the V3E12 fight between Pyrrha and Cinder. The best action sequence in the season was actually the character short with Ruby fighting the gorilla Grimm. That said, I think the battle between RNJR and the Nuckelavee (or however the heck it's spelled :( ) was well-crafted and good storytelling (though I wasn't in particular fear for RNJR, I did have worries that Qrow might be found dead at the end--or that he might be missing when they went back to get him), and Ren and Nora were treated well in it.

I'd hypothesized that the Haven headmaster was actually one of the bad guys (Watts or Hazel) earlier on, because it made thematic sense to me that Haven would not be a real place of refuge in V5 and onwards. I was wrong about that in specifics ( @Sunder the Gold made some good points as to why that didn't work), but as it turns out I was right in the generalities, in that Leo is being leaned on/working with Salem's people. This fits with his "Cowardly Lion" character inspiration. I suspect that there'll be a subplot over the "Mistral arc" where he finds his courage and stands up to them at a key moment, possibly only after he's managed to do some serious damage in his fear.

It has to be emphasized that in my opinion, V4 firmly stuck the landing on its finale. It tied up its plotlines properly. Unlike V1, it wasn't a blatant "midseason finale" that wrapped the current episode subplot but nothing thematic about the season (well, okay, I must give it credit if we take "RWBY meet each other and become a team!" as the the volume's underlying theme, but even so it did it badly, without key dialogue between the characters). Unlike V2, it didn't completely fail to deliver key moments of its own plot (GAH! That still stings even two years later; V2 was such a huge improvement on V1, and then they completely faceplanted a landing that they'd set up brilliantly). Like V3's ending, it functioned as an ending to the themes and issues of the volume, while leaving the story in a place where it can take off properly to start V5. Also, "Armed and Ready" is a much better song than "Divide." Just saying.

Right now, in the afterglow of the aftermath, I would have to say that V4 was the best season of the series yet. It didn't have the power and impact of V3, and it didn't have the "so much better than the previous season" of V2, but it did take a solid step forward into character-based storytelling and world development that just weren't there before. As a fan, I'm happy about the direction they're taking and looking forward to next fall. I just wish that they could get the time, cash, and staff to expand each episode by even 5 minutes (though they need even more), to help them deal with the show's one huge Achilles heel.
 
Pyrrha's death wasn't meaningful?

Thats not what i meant but it is something that matches up with pyrrha being a "meanless victory" for all parties involved but what i meant was next season rooster teeth is probably not going to just murder say ren or nora but it will be tense also the next season after that will be an all out slug fest where instead of a surprise death it will be a heroic sacrifice or something to contrast season 3 ending

Urg i hope im explaining myself properly
 
Well, I just watched the finale. It's... it's definitely isn't bad. It's better than I hoped for and dreaded, which was basically Breach 2.0 and Silver Eyes 2.0. But I can't say it wasn't as exciting as V3's finale. I may have problems with it, but the damn thing was awesome.

The Nuckelavee fight was cool and tense. Until it wasn't. You see, what most people didn't realize is that the Nuckelavee exists for only two things: 1.) So that the finale can have fights; 2.) Ren and Nora's character development/backstory. And this is something that you would notice if you rewatch the fight again. There's the part where it's basically just awesome fight choreography, which was admittedly awesome, and there's the latter part where it's just something to be killed by a more developed Ren.

The quickest comparison in my mind would be with Re:Zero episode 18. In the previous episode, the main character said that he's done everything in the time-loop to solve/get out of the situation, to the point of breaking in tears about it. In episode 17, which is an episode-long dialogue and character development, he got encouraged to try again. And then he immediately succeeded, not a single retry required, casting question about the entire "I've tried everything," crap he said.

I hear some people saying that it made sense for the Grimm to not be that strong because there's the question of how civilization survived (not really WoR said defensive infrastructure and Shion had a badass hunter) but I will ask back a question: If it's not that strong, why hasn't somebody killed it before? It had to be famous because it stopped Oniyuri's development, which was funded by Mistral's riches.

The fight was awesome but it served nothing in the greater plot. If you'd taken out Ren and Nora's backstories then it had no reason to exist except as a fight in the finale. And, literally, it's killed off the moment Ren and Nora's moments were done. It's a good choice from an entertainment viewpoint, and it's nicely done from that viewpoint, but from a storytelling viewpoint, I wouldn't call it nicely executed. Especially when you look at the following scene where it conveniently led to this finale's Deus ex Machina.

Well, calling it a Deus ex Machina is a bit too much. With the reasoning that was given, it made sense for it to happen. But there was no build-up to it and it's used to quickly move the plot forward. There's nothing really wrong with it, but it's not exactly the most satisfying thing. That's really the theme with the finale. I don't see anything really wrong with the finale, it did everything it needed to do. But it feels more like checking a checklist of what's needed to be done this season finale to wrap everything up, get everyone going towards Mistral, and also put the situation - the status-quo if you want to call it that - back to normal.

I think that both opinion on it - that the finale was good and that the finale wasn't good - isn't wrong. It did everything it needed to, but nothing beyond that. For some people, that's enough. And that's fine because, again, nothing really wrong with it. And for others, it's not enough. Which is also fine because finales are supposed to close things with a bang, not with an "Eh, it was okay." I'm sort of in the middle - I can't see any way that it could have been done better (except extending the second part of the fight and giving more gravitas to it) and didn't hate what I get, but I can't lie and not say that it was not great.

For all the problems Volume 3's season finale had, it had managed to live up to its hype, it was full of awesome moments, character developments/resolutions, it has important story beats, and it changed the status quo. With exception to the Deus ex Machina, it was everything a season finale should be. This finale was everything a finale needed to be, and little more. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not exactly great either.

If I have to give it a score, I'd give around 6/10. Try as I might, I can't really find a reason to bump it to 7. 6.5 would be the most it could get. That's not a bad score by my standard, as I am someone who takes the difference with a single point very seriously, but it didn't crack the top-third score either (10 isn't really a thing in most case - there's a lot of requirement needed to crack it, including the test of time).
 
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