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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Ok
    I know these probably will have NOTHING to do with RWBY or what is to come
    but....
    I just feel the need to share these with you guys even though the connection is thinner than a waffer.

    The Juniper Tree (fairy tale)
    The Juniper Tree (fairy tale) - Wikipedia

    "A wealthy and pious couple pray every day for God to grant them a child. One winter, under the juniper tree in the courtyard, the wife peels an apple. She cuts her finger and drops of blood fall onto the snow. This leads her to wish for a child to be as white as snow and as red as blood. Six months later, the wife becomes gravely ill from eating juniper berries and asks her husband to bury her beneath the juniper tree if she dies. A month later, she gives birth to a baby boy as white as snow and as red as blood. She dies of happiness. Keeping his promise, the husband buries her beneath the juniper tree. He eventually marries again and he and his new wife have a daughter named Marlinchen (in some versions Marlene, Marjory or Ann Marie).

    The new wife loves Marlinchen but despises her stepson. She abuses him every day, claiming that she wishes Marlinchen to inherit her father's wealth instead of her stepson. One afternoon after school, the stepmother plans to lure her stepson into an empty room containing a chest of apples. Marlinchen sees the chest and asks for an apple, which the stepmother gracefully offers. However, when the boy enters the room and reaches down the chest for an apple, the stepmother slams the lid onto his neck, decapitating him. The stepmother binds his head with the rest of his body with a bandage and props his body onto a chair outside, with an apple on his lap. Marlinchen, unaware of the situation, asks her stepbrother for an apple. Hearing no response, she is forced by her mother to box him in the ear, causing his head to roll onto the ground. Marlinchen profusely cries throughout the day whilst the stepmother dismembers the stepson's body and cooks him into a "blood-soup" (Black Puddings Sauer/Suur) for dinner. She later deceives her husband by telling him that his son stayed at the mother's great uncle's house. The husband unwittingly eats the "blood-soup" (Black puddings/Sauer/Suur) during dinner and proclaims it to be delicious. Marlinchen gathers the bones from the dinner and buries them beneath the juniper tree with a handkerchief.

    Suddenly, a mist emerges from the juniper tree and a beautiful bird flies out. The bird visits the local townspeople and sings about its brutal murder at the hands of its stepmother. Captivated by its lullaby, a goldsmith, a shoemaker and a miller offer the bird a gold chain, a pair of red shoes and a millstone in return for the bird singing its song again. The bird returns home to give the gold chain to the husband while giving Marlinchen the red shoes. Meanwhile, the stepmother complains about the "raging fires within her arteries", revealed to be the real cause of her anger and hatred towards her stepson. She goes outside for relief but the bird drops the millstone onto her head, killing her instantly. Surrounded by smoke and flames, the son, revealed to be the bird, emerges and reunites with his family. They celebrate and head inside for lunch, and live happily ever after."

    The Rose-Tree
    The Rose-Tree - Wikipedia

    "A long time ago there was a man who had two children; a daughter by his first wife and a son by his second. His daughter was very beautiful, and although her brother loved her, his mother hated her.

    The stepmother sent the daughter to the store to buy candles. But Three times, the girl put down the candles to climb a stile, and a dog stole them. When the daughter returned, her stepmother told her to come and let her comb her hair. The stepmother claimed that she could not comb it on her knee, or with the comb, and sent the girl for a piece of wood and an axe. When she returned, the stepmother cut off her head.

    She stewed her heart and liver, and her husband tasted them and said they tasted strangely. The brother did not eat but buried his sister under a rose-tree. Every day he wept under it.

    One day, the rose-tree flowered, and a white bird appeared. It sang to a cobbler and received a pair of red shoes; it sang to a watchmaker and received a gold watch and chain; it sang to three millers and received a millstone. Then it flew home and rattled the millstone against the eaves. The stepmother said that it thundered, and the boy ran out, and the bird dropped the shoes at his feet. It rattled the millstone again, the stepmother said that it thundered, the father went out, and the bird dropped the watch and chain at his feet. It rattled the millstone a third time, and the stepmother went out, and the bird dropped the millstone on her head."

    my reason
    But ya, this is what I get when trying to look up Trees In Fiction to see what other possibilities there could be.
    So far the top contenders I feel are still a variation of "World Tree" like Yggdrasil and that Madagascar tale Mook brought up earlier.

    Now for chibi foreshadowing
     
    Sasha said:
    I'm honestly baffled by Penny's death. Like, I genuinely don't understand why the writers decided it was a good idea and that the way it happened was the best way to execute it (no pun intended).

    First of all, it was very unsatisfying after all the buildup Penny's arc had throughout the volume. Her struggle against Watts' virus was a huge plot thread that spanned over half the volume. She managed to fight back against it with the help of her friends in V8C11, and was then triumphantly freed from it in the next episode, finally becoming a 'real girl' thanks to the Staff of Creation. It seemed like her story was just beginning... and then it was abruptly cut short. Her death was shocking, all the more for coming on the heels of her triumphant transformation. But shock value seems like a poor trade for the death of such an interesting and loveable character.

    Next, there's the part where Jaune, a character that has barely interacted with Penny this volume (or the last... or in any other volume...), is the one to carry out the 'mercy kill'. Really, the only connection I can see is the one so many other people have pointed out, Jaune's trauma with losing Pyrrha, but I think that connection is tenuous at best. It made me feel like Penny's final moments were more about Jaune than Penny herself.

    Finally, there's the part where this whole "Kill me to transfer the Maiden powers to someone trustworthy" dilemma was already explored in V8C11. Not only was the conflict prompting the dilemma, a battle for control of her mind and body, more tense than what we got in the finale, but it was also being posed to Ruby, Penny's best friend, making the awful choice much more emotional and meaningful. I honestly could have overlooked the abrupt end to Penny's story if it was Ruby who did the deed, or heck, even Weiss. The decision to have it be Jaune is just... so bizarre to me.

    About the only reason to have done things this way that I can think of is to set up some kind of conflict between Ruby and Jaune in Volume 9, but again, that seems like a waste, not to mention to dubious choice of waiting until the next freaking volume to explore. I've seen people speculating that they might be able to bring Penny back, but I'm very skeptical of CRWBY's ability to pull that off without making it seem contrived. Another drawback to having this happen at the end of a volume, I suppose.
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    I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. Emotion aside, it just feels like straight-up bad writing. It feels like the kind of cheap trick Game of Thrones knock-offs like to pull, because they missed the point of what made Ned or Rob's deaths effective twists.
     
    I just had a cruel thought
    SO, if this Destiny Island place is some kind of Afterlife and our castaway's get to have moments with deceased characters like Pyrrha and Roman, then there is also a slim chance of RHODES showing up.
    Now I recall people speculating about him showing up as a means of "helping" Cinder, either by her meeting him personally if she fell OR for the heroes to meet him and learn about Cinder's past, but my thought is.....NEO would be there, too. Neo, who HATES Cinder (especially after the backstab). Neo who is known for holding grudges. Neo.....who can turn herself into other people to play mind games with them.
    If Neo meets Rhodes and learns about his connection to Cinder's past.....oooooooh boi I can just imagine her turning into him to get under Cinder's skin.

    Priority One


    What is Your Deal?

     
    So, I've been thinking on Penny (Shocking, I know). And the thing that's currently getting to me is how easily her sacrifice could have been avoided. She had the Staff of Creation, above all else her responsibility was to get that safely to Vacuo. 'Priority One', as both Jaune and Weiss pointed out several times over the last two episodes. RWBY covered Pennys transit, while JORNE (Journey?) and the Happy Huntresses coordinated the civilian evacuation. She should not have been fighting Cinder at all, even before remembering she was in a new, unfamiliar body (Which she fell victim to at several points, such as when she tried to use her now non-existant swords). She should have gone through the portal, especially given that following them all the way to Vacuo might well have been a risk Cinder couldn't afford to take. But, as was shown back in the fight with the Ace-ops, Penny is too used to fighting solo and having to do everything herself. There's also an argument to be made about tunnel vision and locking onto the obvious threat. She forgot about keeping the relic safe and focused on going in to protect her friends. Noble, good, but the wrong decision. And that led to Salem getting the Staff.

    In the end, the only thing her sacrifice alllowed, as far as she knew, was preventing Cinder from stealing the power of the Winter Maiden. Giving Winter the ability to take down Ironwood was an unintended bonus. And it's left scars that may never be healed, especially on Jaune, Ruby, and Winter.

    And the method to restore her to life, that her father revealed to Ruby and Weiss back in V7? It's entirely possible it won't work now. Both in-universe and out, we have to deal with the fact she may be permenantly gone. Because of a wrong decision, and the belief that her life didn't matter...
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    So, I've been thinking on Penny (Shocking, I know). And the thing that's currently getting to me is how easily her sacrifice could have been avoided. She had the Staff of Creation, above all else her responsibility was to get that safely to Vacuo. 'Priority One', as both Jaune and Weiss pointed out several times over the last two episodes. RWBY covered Pennys transit, while JORNE (Journey?) and the Happy Huntresses coordinated the civilian evacuation. She should not have been fighting Cinder at all, even before remembering she was in a new, unfamiliar body (Which she fell victim to at several points, such as when she tried to use her now non-existant swords). She should have gone through the portal, especially given that following them all the way to Vacuo might well have been a risk Cinder couldn't afford to take. But, as was shown back in the fight with the Ace-ops, Penny is too used to fighting solo and having to do everything herself. There's also an argument to be made about tunnel vision and locking onto the obvious threat. She forgot about keeping the relic safe and focused on going in to protect her friends. Noble, good, but the wrong decision. And that led to Salem getting the Staff.

    In the end, the only thing her sacrifice alllowed, as far as she knew, was preventing Cinder from stealing the power of the Winter Maiden. Giving Winter the ability to take down Ironwood was an unintended bonus. And it's left scars that may never be healed, especially on Jaune, Ruby, and Winter.

    And the method to restore her to life, that her father revealed to Ruby and Weiss back in V7? It's entirely possible it won't work now. Both in-universe and out, we have to deal with the fact she may be permenantly gone. Because of a wrong decision, and the belief that her life didn't matter...
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    If RT goes in this direction in volume nine, that Penny's death was a senseless sacrifice that left her loved ones scarred rather than something noble, I think that would address my ever-growing discomfort and frustration with the finale. Otherwise, I think I'll just walk away from the series.
     
    LordYam said:
    Again, that's assuming Penny doesn't return in some form, like an energy being.
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    Well, technically speaking, she already was an energy being at that point, being nothing but pure Aura once all the robot parts got stripped out...
    So... would coming back make her a DOUBLE Energy Being?
     
    I still feel like there's a chance she's not gone-gone, even if she might not be getting brought back to life. But if I'm wrong, I do wonder if it's... very intentional on CRWBY's part that she so obviously has more story to come when she dies? That was the case the first time, too, she mentioned having a plan to stay at Beacon/in Vale after the tournament was over that we never had the chance to see. Pyrrha's character arc was... pretty clearly heading where it did, and while she still obviously had other things she'd have wanted to do, her role in the story was pretty obviously coming to a close. Penny's wasn't, and yet it did.

    And I can't help but wonder if it's intentional, both times, that Penny obviously had more story to be a part of when she died. Because RWBY is a show that was massively impacted by the sudden and unexpected death of someone that still had a lot they were planning to do with their life.
     
    LordYam said:
    Again, that's assuming Penny doesn't return in some form, like an energy being.
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    Though, at this point,

    they're on thin ice as is with breaching their own rules. "You can't bring people back to life. That is a hard coded rule in the Relic of Creation. The whole show started because someone tried to break those rules. Oh, wait, here's Penny who is a very special exception to the rules! And we're going to establish that she has at least one extra life left in her! Baaah, forget that, let's make her human and kill her off."

    Audiences will not weep for joy when she comes back, they're gonna inspect her whole body to find what the expiry date is on her this time.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Though, at this point,

    they're on thin ice as is with breaching their own rules. "You can't bring people back to life. That is a hard coded rule in the Relic of Creation. The whole show started because someone tried to break those rules. Oh, wait, here's Penny who is a very special exception to the rules! And we're going to establish that she has at least one extra life left in her! Baaah, forget that, let's make her human and kill her off."

    Audiences will not weep for joy when she comes back, they're gonna inspect her whole body to find what the expiry date is on her this time.
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    Yeah then you start veering into Death is Meaningless territory where there's no stakes or drama if someone gets killed. Salem at this point should be the only one who that applies to.
    Here's an interesting idea: RWB discover that due to time difference and being the only official Huntress Yang has ended up as the de facto leader of the Atlas refugees on Void Island. Thanks to her they're all alive and now knowledgeable in survival training, primitive weapon crafting and what not. The similarities to Raven are not lost on her.
     
    My thoughts
    Keep Penny dead in the physical sense. No more bodies for you. BUT, I would be alright with a more "Spirit Guide" role. Either for Winter going forward, or if she shows up walking around on Destiny Island if it is a kind of Afterlife Zone. At first RWBY would think Penny is there because she fell, too, and then Jaune finds them, sees Penny, and goes white as a sheet. Yang remarks "You OK, Vomit Boy? You look like you've seen a ghost." And before Jaune can recover and try to cover, Penny happily chimes in "Because he has." Then we get the girls being fully filled in on what happened, feels are had, but Penny reassures her friends that it's OK. It was a short life, but it was still hers in the end and she died happy with the thought of helping her friends, and to her happy surprise she finds she can help Ruby and the others once more by trying to help them figure out the island and how to get home.
     
    Why are people so hung up on the "part of you" thing? It's a parellel from last Volume, when Winter said it to Penny.

    Just as Fria wasn't in Penny's head, and neither Pyrrha or Amber are in Cinder's, I find it highly unlikely that Penny is in Winter's.
     
    BBBence1111 said:
    Why are people so hung up on the "part of you" thing? It's a parellel from last Volume, when Winter said it to Penny.

    Just as Fria wasn't in Penny's head, and neither Pyrrha or Amber are in Cinder's, I find it highly unlikely that Penny is in Winter's.
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    Probably because they talked about how Aura is one's soul.
     
    BBBence1111 said:
    Why are people so hung up on the "part of you" thing? It's a parellel from last Volume, when Winter said it to Penny.

    Just as Fria wasn't in Penny's head, and neither Pyrrha or Amber are in Cinder's, I find it highly unlikely that Penny is in Winter's.
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    Because Penny was a rather Unique being when she died and thematically it does not make sense for this to be the end of her story.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Though, at this point,

    they're on thin ice as is with breaching their own rules. "You can't bring people back to life. That is a hard coded rule in the Relic of Creation. The whole show started because someone tried to break those rules. Oh, wait, here's Penny who is a very special exception to the rules! And we're going to establish that she has at least one extra life left in her! Baaah, forget that, let's make her human and kill her off."

    Audiences will not weep for joy when she comes back, they're gonna inspect her whole body to find what the expiry date is on her this time.
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    you're conflating a lot of different things
    the rules of the brother's truce
    the rules of the relic of creation
    the feasibility of reviving someone that's biological without the aid of the brothers or relic of creation compared to someone that's synthetic
     
    BBBence1111 said:
    Why are people so hung up on the "part of you" thing? It's a parellel from last Volume, when Winter said it to Penny.

    Just as Fria wasn't in Penny's head, and neither Pyrrha or Amber are in Cinder's, I find it highly unlikely that Penny is in Winter's.
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    Because people refuse to let go of characters, much like how Salem couldn't deal with Ozma dying and being told "No you can't have your bae back."
     
    Here's the thing. rules of resurrection have never applied to Penny. First because she had a machine body, and now she's now something even the Relic of Creation doesn't fully understand. And no revives has never been a hard universal rule. It's a rule imposed by the brothers because they don't like it. But it still happens. Ozpin died once and he's still around after all.
     
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