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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • WhiteDragon25 said:
    Do keep in mind that A) Ruby was momentarily stunned by what just happened, and B) was immediately attacked by Neo before she could react otherwise.
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    Neo doesn't attack until after Yang fully falls off the ledge and disappears (As this isn't the first time I've had to make this point: Neo slashes Yang at 11:10, and then Neo attacks Ruby at 11:58. Yes, I understand that there is time dilation. No I'm not suggesting it was a literal 48 seconds).
     
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    SerGregness said:
    Neo doesn't attack until after Yang fully falls off the ledge and disappears (As this isn't the first time I've had to make this point: Neo slashes Yang at 11:10, and then Neo attacks Ruby at 11:58. Yes, I understand that there is time dilation. No I'm not suggesting it was a literal 48 seconds).
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    This is like, a really pointless detail to get hung up on. Regardless of the in-story reasons, the reason it played out like that was because that's what is required, there needs to be a reason why next volume is gonna be set wherever it's set, this is that reason. Besides, characters, and people, for that matter, are not competence machines, try to move past that, if you can't suspend your disbelief.
     
    Nidhoggr said:
    This is like, a really pointless detail to get hung up on. Regardless of the in-story reasons, the reason it played out like that was because that's what is required, there needs to be a reason why next volume is gonna be set wherever it's set, this is that reason. Besides, characters, and people, for that matter, are not competence machines, try to move past that, if you can't suspend your disbelief.
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    Y'all are actually more hung up on this than I am, to be honest. The timing of the sequence is just a little dumb and y'all are stuck on convincing me it isn't. I've said earlier in the thread that this show is flawed, but it's fun and has a rad soundtrack and I watch it with that mindset. I normally don't engage in armchair generalship at all, but it was just so obvious this time.

    Like, on the positive side, I haven't seen any of you talking about how the title of this episode is "Worthy", and features Cinder kicking everyone's ass post Watts-rant. One of the social media posts mentions the chewing-out, but didn't connect it to the title. It's also a tragedy (regardless of how dumb or contrived it is) that literally anyone else there could have saved Yang, but the one who reacted quickly enough was the one person who didn't have the tools.
     
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    So...

    The thing that gets me, is that after the fight is done, after Cinder is dealt with for the time being and Ice Cream Bitch is potentially shortened a head... Ruby's going to come to the same conclusion Greg is. Ruby, who has spent more than a volume being emotionally battered with blow after blow after blow, who has made an art form of repressing her grief, who was quick enough in the fight against the Ace-ops earlier this volume and less then a day ago in-universe to catch her teammates when they fell, is going to tell herself she could have saved Yang. The arguments that she was stunned and in the ground after what happened, or Neo attacked her again, or she was too focused on Cinder to react immediately? Won't matter to her. The only thing that will matter is that she failed. And her sister is dead because of it.
     
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    WhiteDragon25 said:
    Do keep in mind that A) Ruby was momentarily stunned by what just happened, and B) was immediately attacked by Neo before she could react otherwise.
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    Spoilers.


    Anyway another thing to keep in mind is that Ruby was clearly knocked the fucked over when Yang rammed her out of the way of Neo's attack. Being knocked off your feet and slammed into a floor usually slows down your ability to go save people.
     
    I feel like I should clarify that when I said 'playing armchair general' in my last post, my critique is not actually directed at the characters, here. I wanted the writers to do better. I'm realizing now that I didn't really communicate this effectively earlier. They want Yang to fall here? I'm all for it. Let Ruby actually react, and have Cinder deny it with an AOE fire blast, and then maybe Blake is on the other side or whatever and can sprint around it. This reinforces Cinder as being in basically complete control of the situation, and lets Ruby still get to have her gravitas as one of the main characters.

    Or just, like, show Ruby taking the fall badly and smacking her head hard enough to be actually dazed by it.

    Neither option is significantly more runtime (couple seconds at most) and I feel like would sell the scene far better. Assuming for the moment that the sequence is the way it is for reasons other than simply being economical, they probably are aiming to have Ruby berate herself over not saving Yang, but the whole thing feels... self-fulfilling in that case? Like the people who try to argue Quiet from metal gear isn't pure fanservice because 'she has to breathe through her skin!' but like, the writers are the ones who decided that.
     
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    SerGregness said:
    I feel like I should clarify that when I said 'playing armchair general' in my last post, my critique is not actually directed at the characters, here. I wanted the writers to do better. I'm realizing now that I didn't really communicate this effectively earlier. They want Yang to fall here? I'm all for it. Let Ruby actually react, and have Cinder deny it with an AOE fire blast, and then maybe Blake is on the other side or whatever and can sprint around it. This reinforces Cinder as being in basically complete control of the situation, and lets Ruby still get to have her gravitas as one of the main characters.

    Or just, like, show Ruby taking the fall badly and smacking her head to be actually dazed by it.

    Neither option is significantly more runtime (couple seconds at most) and I feel like would sell the scene far better. Assuming for the moment that the sequence is the way it is for reasons other than simply being economical, they probably are aiming to have Ruby berate herself over not saving her, but the whole thing feels... self-fulfilling in that case? Like the people who try to argue Quiet from metal gear isn't pure fanservice because 'she has to breathe through her skin!' but like, the writers are the ones who decided that.
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    That's... exactly what they showed? Ruby was on the ground after Yang shoved her out of the way of Neos attack. By the time she was even looking up, Yang had gone over the edge.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    That's... exactly what they showed? Ruby was on the ground after Yang shoved her out of the way of Neos attack. By the time she was even looking up, Yang had gone over the edge.
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    No they don't. There's one slow-mo 'frame' of her toppling, and the next time we see her she's prone on the ground, in a position that implies her arms took the fall. I'm saying they should have literally just inserted one more slo-mo 'frame' of Ruby actually hitting her head.
     
    SerGregness said:
    I feel like I should clarify that when I said 'playing armchair general' in my last post, my critique is not actually directed at the characters, here. I wanted the writers to do better. I'm realizing now that I didn't really communicate this effectively earlier. They want Yang to fall here? I'm all for it. Let Ruby actually react, and have Cinder deny it with an AOE fire blast, and then maybe Blake is on the other side or whatever and can sprint around it. This reinforces Cinder as being in basically complete control of the situation, and lets Ruby still get to have her gravitas as one of the main characters.

    Or just, like, show Ruby taking the fall badly and smacking her head hard enough to be actually dazed by it.

    Neither option is significantly more runtime (couple seconds at most) and I feel like would sell the scene far better. Assuming for the moment that the sequence is the way it is for reasons other than simply being economical, they probably are aiming to have Ruby berate herself over not saving Yang, but the whole thing feels... self-fulfilling in that case? Like the people who try to argue Quiet from metal gear isn't pure fanservice because 'she has to breathe through her skin!' but like, the writers are the ones who decided that.
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    I don't think this criticism is made in good faith. "I want to see what you want me to see, but you showed it inadequately" is far too susceptible to goalpoast-shifting. Nothing is ever adequate.
     
    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    I don't think this criticism is made in good faith. "I want to see what you want me to see, but you showed it inadequately" is far too susceptible to goalpoast-shifting. Nothing is ever adequate.
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    I mean, obviously 'the presentation of this sequence of events didn't really hold up for me' is subjective, and just as obviously I'll never know if my proposed changes would really have fixed them because I can't peer into alternate timelines with some kind of quantum eyesight. Not sure it's necessary to assume the worst about my intentions in this way, because I don't think my post history in this thread has represented anything other than the 'flawed, but fun show' position I've expressed several times now.

    Not really sure what y'all are wanting from me, here.
     
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    Winter
    I doubt she'll die, yet I have a feeling either she or Ironwood will fall off the Vault's platform, like how Oscar fell last volume finale.
    Option 1 - Winter gets knocked off (maybe even losing a hand) and falls through the hole, but gets caught and saved by the Manta that has Klein, Whitley and Willow. Basically think how Luke ends the last battle of Revenge of The Sith. Loses a duel, a hand, and falls down the pit of a floating city and out the bottom, but gets picked up by allies.
    Option 2 - Ironwood gets knocked off, but does not get caught and basically falls to his doom right into Mantle. He either dies in the fall, dies to Mantle going boom, or dies from Atlas crashing down into Mantle.
     
    The Quiet is pure bullshit, made by someone that wanted fanservice, then thought of a 'Justification' much, much later, not realising it only made the whole thing even creepier. Comparing that to the concept of Ruby blaming herself for everything, even things that aren't her fault, when this is a character flaw dating back to volume 1, is a little weird.
     
    What I doubt will happen
    When it comes to The Void and what Yang and others will be stuck in for a time, there are things I am pretty sure we won't get.
    1 - Time Skip - Some people have put out the idea that time will flow differently in the Void, so that when Yang and others manage to get out then time, maybe years, will have passed on Remnant. This brings to mind how Fairy Tail did their first Time Skip (yes they did 2 skips), where when the Dragon Acnologia (and eventual final boss) attacked them on their island of Tenrou after all of them had been through a hell of a fight with that arcs villain group our heroes and the island got magically sealed away for 7 years to prevent them getting obliterated by the beast. When they came out of the seal and got back home they found they had been gone for years and needed to level up FAST to get back in the game. Here for RWBY.....I don't think that would work. Salem is already on the move and they are in the middle of trying to get refugees to the last Kingdom with an active Academy. Removing a few of our heroes for even a year would really put near breaking strain on those that remain just to keep up the fight against Salem.
    2 - Time Travel - Another idea was The Fallen ending up in the time of Humanity 1.0 or at the time of Hermit Oz (and RWBY somehow turn out to be OG Maidens). Putting in time travel like this would add more problems than the show can really handle at the moment as is. I doubt the CRWBY want to risk the danger of paradox's, especially this late into the game.

    What about you guys? What are some ideas that you are confident that we won't see next volume in The Void?
     
    Pugman said:
    What I doubt will happen
    When it comes to The Void and what Yang and others will be stuck in for a time, there are things I am pretty sure we won't get.
    1 - Time Skip - Some people have put out the idea that time will flow differently in the Void, so that when Yang and others manage to get out then time, maybe years, will have passed on Remnant. This brings to mind how Fairy Tail did their first Time Skip (yes they did 2 skips), where when the Dragon Acnologia (and eventual final boss) attacked them on their island of Tenrou after all of them had been through a hell of a fight with that arcs villain group our heroes and the island got magically sealed away for 7 years to prevent them getting obliterated by the beast. When they came out of the seal and got back home they found they had been gone for years and needed to level up FAST to get back in the game. Here for RWBY.....I don't think that would work. Salem is already on the move and they are in the middle of trying to get refugees to the last Kingdom with an active Academy. Removing a few of our heroes for even a year would really put near breaking strain on those that remain just to keep up the fight against Salem.
    2 - Time Travel - Another idea was The Fallen ending up in the time of Humanity 1.0 or at the time of Hermit Oz (and RWBY somehow turn out to be OG Maidens). Putting in time travel like this would add more problems than the show can really handle at the moment as is. I doubt the CRWBY want to risk the danger of paradox's, especially this late into the game.

    What about you guys? What are some ideas that you are confident that we won't see next volume in The Void?
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    I could see Time Travel work if it's a bad future or it's one of those "It already happened so they're not changing anything" things, Like Summer vanished because RWBY grabbed her and brought her forward to prevent her from being turned into a Grimm.

    I don't think it's gonna happen though. I'm personally leaning towards afterlife or alternate universe.
     
    Oscar's team
    So the feeling is that Emerald can be Oscar's Glynda.
    If they get Mercury to switch sides.....could he be their Qrow? The sassy asshole that gets his hands dirty so the boss doesn't have to.
     
    Pugman said:
    Winter
    I doubt she'll die, yet I have a feeling either she or Ironwood will fall off the Vault's platform, like how Oscar fell last volume finale.
    Option 1 - Winter gets knocked off (maybe even losing a hand) and falls through the hole, but gets caught and saved by the Manta that has Klein, Whitley and Willow. Basically think how Luke ends the last battle of Revenge of The Sith. Loses a duel, a hand, and falls down the pit of a floating city and out the bottom, but gets picked up by allies.
    Option 2 - Ironwood gets knocked off, but does not get caught and basically falls to his doom right into Mantle. He either dies in the fall, dies to Mantle going boom, or dies from Atlas crashing down into Mantle.
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    I feel like narratively speaking Ironwood dies here for sure. He's lost everything, and he has approximately zero chance of getting the Staff in the middle of two Maidens duking it out, both of which dont like him. But at the same time it feels strangely unlikely that Winter might go through to Vacuo. These are both characters that very clearly cannot stand without Atlas, who, as people, have invested too much of themselves in it. In the first episode of this volume, Ironwood makes a fist with his new and replaced arm, whereas Winter fails to make one with her unsupported arm - he with his internal modifications, her with entirely eternal ones - foils in every sense. For better or worse, Atlas is the one thing propping them up.

    And look at what Winter says when facing off against him - "I've never wavered in fighting the enemies of this kingdom, and I won't start now." This, after it is clear Atlas has no future as a nation. She could have used literally any other framing here - 'I cant let you stop the evacuation', or 'you lost any moral ground a long time ago'. But she chose to couch it in terms of 'youre the enemy of the state, not me'. They're hanging on to something that's literally falling to pieces, and they dont want to let go.

    I think, of the two scenarios you've presented, I would like to see a mix of both. Ironwood is killed by Winter, thematically because he's been abandoned by everyone in Atlas, and abandoned in turn. Winter likely gets terribly injured, and maybe in the middle of Atlas falling she can't go through the portal. Or maybe she falls... but the difference between the two is that Winter still has Whitley, Willow and Klein, who definitely haven't gone through any portals yet, because we'd have likely seen them in the world-between-worlds.

    It's funny you bring up Star Wars (although I think you mean Empire Strikes Back instead of Revenge of the Sith), given that Ironwood has essentially done a similar arc as Anakin - started out with heroic intentions, suppressed his fear and simply made it bigger, getting maimed and gotten robotic prosthetics, and ultimately became a villain because he'd do anything for what he cares, even as he doesn't realize how much he himself is a threat to that something.

    There's some parallels here with Cinder, given that she too has a black-colored (though not robotic) prosthetic arm and some character similarities. But unlike Ironwood, I think Cinder has realized the importance of working together with others, that she can't do it alone, that it's not about power, its about taking others' power away. That strength won't bring victory, and that's why she's fighting alongside Neo and Watts. She has to some extent realized the series' main theme, and meanwhile Ironwood explicitly says he's always expected betrayal from others, and is now stating what his actions have been implying for the past two volumes - he thinks himself the only one truly qualified to do things right, and won't accept any help from others.

    My conclusion: Ironwood's dying. Cinder's surviving this. Winter's survival is entirely contingent on her family.
     
    idea for 14 bet they are about to ask Ambros and he's like Imma stop you right there, I can't destroy things but if you ask me to solve this yang is gone for good, and then they jump into the void trusting the rest of the world to stop Salem so they can save yang
    hell if they take the staff with them Salem can't ever win
     
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