RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Zam]

Does he actually say that? Because like that's super dumb. Tons of monster movies and tv shows have human bad guys. From Aliens to a ton of Zombie films. I could understand if he came at it from the angle of "this is a bad genre convention and the show should have focused on monster hunting". I wouldn't agree, but I could understand that point of view.

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It was along those lines yeah, it was said during his coverage of the Black Trailer which I watched before he kicked me from Patreon, I made reference to it in my initial review. And yeah, its a pretty nonsensical argument, I definitely get the appeal of a pure monster fighting thing in concept but not being that isn't an inherent mark against a product.

 

[Pugman]

nah, I think if Monty was alive we'd both have a different product, but also the internet would take Monty to task on things since he was the front guy for the series. Miles and Kerry would still get flack, but Monty would get some, too.
But with him being dead people stayed away from picking his contribution apart negatively. People tend to take offence when you speak ill of the dead, especially if they die young/tragically

___
People thought it was gonna be typical Monty awesome with cool/interesting looking characters kicking ass in high-octain fight scenes, but then the Black and Yellow trailer introduced plot and character.

 

[VolantRedX]

As well as said 12 year old having a goofy face when he gets decked by an alcoholic.

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But compare that to shit like Garzy's Wing or Angel Cop. That's true so bad it's good anime. It goes well beyond "here are a few strange plot points in this 8 season-long show".

 

[Leingod]

nah, I think if Monty was alive we'd both have a different product, but also the internet would take Monty to task on things since he was the front guy for the series. Miles and Kerry would still get flack, but Monty would get some, too.
But with him being dead people stayed away from picking his contribution apart negatively. People tend to take offence when you speak ill of the dead, especially if they die young/tragically

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To give them even less credit, it's harder to abuse the name and "vision" of the series' creator when he's still alive to tell you you're completely off-base and to stop being a shit to his friends that he chose to bring on to co-create this series with him. A dead man can't take you to task for misrepresenting him, so that's at least a part of why "Monty's vision" is so often wielded like a club against the man's friends and co-workers by assholes on the internet who never even knew Monty Oum.

 

[Tasrill]

Jinn can't grant wishes. Like she's literally not a wish-granting genie. She's the embodiment of the relic of knowledge and thus just is able to answer three questions every 100 years.

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but are they really all that out there by anime standards?

the answer is: no.

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How exactly is that camp? Genie's show up in Aladdin and Aang literally gets possessed by previous incarnations of the Avatar.


It was one of his veiled complaints about her weapon. Also how is it silly? He claimed even as he showed clips of Blake being in a dynamic action scene thus showing his own points are incoherent and nonsensical. Even ignoring that he conflated the WF with the main plot, he also blamed it all on Mile's and Kerry despite it being Monty's idea & also laid out his initial issue as "You might be wondering why there's human bad guys in a show with monsters" so no. I made nothing up, he however accused Jeff William's of plagiarism.

This too, I wonder if they watched the show?

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Um Robin Williams in Aladdin is hella camp. Not all camp is camp because it is bad. Though I can go on about all the silly things in RWBY and even if it isn't the most out their in anime it has a nice mix of short episodes with enough things in each of them to enjoy yourself.

Also yeah I used wish instead of the more technical 'grants any knowledge you can ask for with three questions like a genie while looking like a genie and using all the genie aesthetics.' For my next trick i'm going to say Blake's ex had 999 burned into his right eye and then was killed by the power of hand holding.

But honestly I'm dipping out because as shown time and again this goes nowhere. This line of discussion will simply get tempers up and go nowhere and I should not have even started it in the first place.

 

[Zam]

The above in no way addresses anything that was said, but I won't quote it so said poster can just leave rather than continue to defend bad faith criticism, but I won't let it pass without acknowledgement cos I am petty and doing so would feel like pretending said claims were correct.

To give them even less credit, it's harder to abuse the name and "vision" of the series' creator when he's still alive to tell you you're completely off-base and to stop being a shit to his friends that he chose to bring on to co-create this series with him. A dead man can't take you to task for misrepresenting him, so that's at least a part of why "Monty's vision" is so often wielded like a club against the man's friends and co-workers by assholes on the internet who never even knew Monty Oum.

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So true, from memory Monty Oum even had a tweet to the effect of "If you don't like my friends work, stop watching" if I recall, amazing how his words and will and decisions are ignored or misrepresented by people who never knew him.

 

[Marco]

The problem with a lot of RWBY criticism, and I say this as someone who got involved around season six, is that it's...weirdly harsh in places. Like, sure, you can argue things could have been done better, things needed more development or better explanation or better execution and I'd agree with you, most likely.

It's just that, especially when people talk of what could have been, you run straight into the issue of your brain creating a story or standard that could never be met or was never intended to be met. RWBY is, at the end of the day, a relatively small web series created by a small company and more than a few people seem to treat it as if it was supposed to be the next decade-defining TV show made by a major network and attack it as such. It's just...silly I guess? Context matters for critique.

But as has been mentioned already, we're in the poisoned well. People have good reason to be defensive, but being so defensive can lead to issues when someone makes a point.

So against my better judgement, I'll watch the video at some point, tonight if I can manage. I'll give it a go, but I don't have high hopes.

 

[Zam]

It's just that, especially when people talk of what could have been, you run straight into the issue of your brain creating a story or standard that could never be met or was never intended to be met. RWBY is, at the end of the day, a relatively small web series created by a small company and more than a few people seem to treat it as if it was supposed to be the next decade-defining TV show made by a major network and attack it as such. It's just...silly I guess? Context matters for critique.

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This is an excellent point, people make a big hullabaloo about RT "Selling out" but the early seasons were done when still alone and what's more their first try, it doesn't mean one should gloss over critique (I wrote more than my fair share of it in the past) But so many seem to refuse to acknowledge the circumstances and context in which something was made which is annoyingly unfair and created an incredibly skewed perception.


Anyway, apropos of nothing, a thing I really enjoy about RWBY is an underlying theme about the importance of support networks.

Like, if we take all the adults good and bad, most of their problems can be tied back at least in part to their relationship or none existent one with support networks.

Salem had no one except Ozpin and basically shattered when he died leading her down an increasingly desperate path to get him back, warping her into a monster.

Qrow keeps his at an arms length and suffers for it, only beginning to turn his life around when he's sort of left with no choice but to be around them with no way to keep his walls up.

Ozpin keeps his allies in the dark about a ton of information that ends up leading to them distrusting him and even turning on him, as well leaving Ozpin having no one to rely on wholly but himself which leaves for a very limited perspective for strategies and mounting pressure.

Describing Ironwood as having a support network is perhaps not wholly accurate, but Winter and the Ace-Ops fill that role in a sense of the word, but are all effectively just obedient lackey's who don't question his decisions, or provide any kind of real comfort and this means they can't see him breaking down & refuse to question his decisions or acknowledge the consequences of them. They're enablers.

In contrast while Ruby is the leader when she falls we see her team come to her side to offer comfort, they aren't shocked by her "weakness"; and we see that despite their loyalty they are fine questioning her and taking initiative on their own and this extends to other groups with healthier dynamics. Heck, Jaune's initial period at Beacon is him refusing Pyrrha's support out of pride, only beating the Ursa thanks to her assistance and only improving and becoming happy when he does accept help. We see they can be vulnerable around each other and lift each other up and that it overall leaders to being happier, healthier and more generally 'together' than a lot of the adults who refuse or were denied similar support.

This also ties in well to a great tumblr meta I read that noted part of the reason Ozpin & Ironwood struggle is because they both viewed themselves as the only one capable of stopping Salem, the literal lone hero and main character of the world. This was also reasoned as why Summer died, she went to tackle Salem alone, rather than with her team and as thus bereft of support.

And given how many shows focus on "This one person is the only one who can do this" or generally emphasizes the "Great sole figure of history" I just really like this seeming overarching theme of "You don't have to be alone, we're all in this together and stronger when lifting each other up, let's do this, yeeehaww!"

 

[Pugman]

This is an excellent point, people make a big hullabaloo about RT "Selling out" but the early seasons were done when still alone and what's more their first try, it doesn't mean one should gloss over critique (I wrote more than my fair share of it in the past) But so many seem to refuse to acknowledge the circumstances and context in which something was made which is annoyingly unfair and created an incredibly skewed perception.


Anyway, apropos of nothing, a thing I really enjoy about RWBY is an underlying theme about the importance of support networks.

Like, if we take all the adults good and bad, most of their problems can be tied back at least in part to their relationship or none existent one with support networks.

Salem had no one except Ozpin and basically shattered when he died leading her down an increasingly desperate path to get him back, warping her into a monster.

Qrow keeps his at an arms length and suffers for it, only beginning to turn his life around when he's sort of left with no choice but to be around them with no way to keep his walls up.

Ozpin keeps his allies in the dark about a ton of information that ends up leading to them distrusting him and even turning on him, as well leaving Ozpin having no one to rely on wholly but himself which leaves for a very limited perspective for strategies and mounting pressure.

Describing Ironwood as having a support network is perhaps not wholly accurate, but Winter and the Ace-Ops fill that role in a sense of the word, but are all effectively just obedient lackey's who don't question his decisions, or provide any kind of real comfort and this means they can't see him breaking down & refuse to question his decisions or acknowledge the consequences of them. They're enablers.

In contrast while Ruby is the leader when she falls we see her team come to her side to offer comfort, they aren't shocked by her "weakness"; and we see that despite their loyalty they are fine questioning her and taking initiative on their own and this extends to other groups with healthier dynamics. Heck, Jaune's initial period at Beacon is him refusing Pyrrha's support out of pride, only beating the Ursa thanks to her assistance and only improving and becoming happy when he does accept help. We see they can be vulnerable around each other and lift each other up and that it overall leaders to being happier, healthier and more generally 'together' than a lot of the adults who refuse or were denied similar support.

This also ties in well to a great tumblr meta I read that noted part of the reason Ozpin & Ironwood struggle is because they both viewed themselves as the only one capable of stopping Salem, the literal lone hero and main character of the world. This was also reasoned as why Summer died, she went to tackle Salem alone, rather than with her team and as thus bereft of support.

And given how many shows focus on "This one person is the only one who can do this" or generally emphasizes the "Great sole figure of history" I just really like this seeming overarching theme of "You don't have to be alone, we're all in this together and stronger when lifting each other up, let's do this, yeeehaww!"

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And you can even put this to Pyrrha.
She was the support network for Jaune, but she didn't let him be the support network for her. She got caught up in her head about destiny
As for the others;
Jaune almost fell when he gave into his grief during the Mistral Arc. But thankfully he came back around.
Nora and Ren are currently dealing with miscommunication but I'm positive they'll come back around, too.
Blake had her parents and (though begrudgingly at first) Sun and they help'd her through her ruff patch.
Weiss had the even kind and patient Klien.
Ruby had Jaune (before the Nuck fight), her Uncle (when they got their licenses), and her Team (when Salem burned her).
Yang had her dad and a timely visit from 2 kind teachers.

 

[Matrix Dragon]

Yang had her dad and a timely visit from 2 kind teachers

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Also, Weiss opening up about a painful part of her past, just as Yang herself once did to help Blake.

 

[Greener223224]

Okay, so I've watched like halfway through the video. The part where Hbomberguy talks about the Godzilla music, he openly admits that they just sound similar because they're generic and it was all just a non sequitor so he could make a skit where the punchline is "I hope Jeff Williams is a Godzilla fan, I really enjoyed Shin Godzilla".

 

[Zam]

And you can even put this to Pyrrha.
She was the support network for Jaune, but she didn't let him be the support network for her. She got caught up in her head about destiny

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This is another reason why the idea of having Jaune there would have made for a worse story, as it'd be effectively kicking the theme of the importance of support networks in the head.

Though admittedly I think she was more caught up in grief and guilt myself

As for the others;
Jaune almost fell when he gave into his grief during the Mistral Arc. But thankfully he came back around.
Nora and Ren are currently dealing with miscommunication but I'm positive they'll come back around, too.
Blake had her parents and (though begrudgingly at first) Sun and they help'd her through her ruff patch.
Weiss had the even kind and patient Klien.
Ruby had Jaune (before the Nuck fight), her Uncle (when they got their licenses), and her Team (when Salem burned her).
Yang had her dad and a timely visit from 2 kind teachers.

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Pretty much exactly yeah, very well laid out, I have my contentions with how some of these were handled, but the overarching theme and message remains strong, persistent and consistent throughout RWBY. Teams are important, friends are important, we all need each other.

 

[VolantRedX]

It's just that, especially when people talk of what could have been, you run straight into the issue of your brain creating a story or standard that could never be met or was never intended to be met. RWBY is, at the end of the day, a relatively small web series created by a small company and more than a few people seem to treat it as if it was supposed to be the next decade-defining TV show made by a major network and attack it as such. It's just...silly I guess? Context matters for critique.

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For my money, much of the criticism that comes from people who actually watched the show (as opposed to people who never saw it and just parrot others) it seems to be that they think the show is about one thing and when it isn't they react so negatively that from then on every little error compounds on itself because in their minds it's the fault of the show "missing opportunities" or "not having a solid plot". First people thought Ruby was going to act a certain way, then they thought the show was going to be only focused on the team rather than the two teams together, then it was the fact the show was going to be a slice of life high school monster hunter anime instead of a more mobile plot and so on. The show they've invented is always going to be better than the show they're watching so rather than actually enjoy the show they pick apart every minor detail and piss and moan when they don't get their way.

And it's a shame because RWBY is far from a flawless show and there's some actually insightful criticism to be had but people instead focus endlessly on minor petty bullshit just to settle this perceived slight and it creates an atmosphere hostile to meaningful discussion.

 

[Zam]

The above is an excellent point and very much reflects the seeming views of a lot of the critics I've seen, their complaints are often couched less in "This doesn't work for narrative reasons" and more in "I wanted the show to do X" even if X wouldn't make sense or has very little to do with the actual story being told. I'd enjoy fish and chips for dinner, but I'm not going to criticize a hamburger for not tasting or looking like fish and chips, and visa versa.

In other news, a V8 'Leak' XD

Spoiler

 

[gman391]

RWBY is not the best show ever.
I don't think it was ever going to be. I respect the CRWBY for continuing to put stuff out, and for going forward. I don't think it's flawless, and one of the bigger problems is just that they never seem to have time to breathe. The Creators I mean, and I think that actually hurts a lot of their output. Sometimes you just need a break.

That said, given everything they've been thematically consistent since Season 3, tonally consistent, and while I don't always agree with the character choices made. But I've never seen them as being OOC. There are a lot of things I personally would have changed. That's a reflection on what I'd find interesting. (Although the pacing in season 5 is just awful, I'm sorry)

I like the characters, and if the story is nothing special, it doesn't need to be either. Its a competent first anime. And that's what it is, a first anime made by people who wanted to tell a story with these characters but weren't looking to redefine the genre or anything. Which you know as first animes go it's pretty good.

 

[Zam]

So I recently participated in the "Say Something nice about a character" RWBY thing (great fun, very wholesome). With one of my posts being about Qrow Branwen and the more I reflect on that post, the series and the excellent three part video series created by Hypeathon and I had more to say.

Now, is no huge secret I was not a fan of Qrow when he turned up; everything about heir personality & how he seemed to be framed ran contrary to what I liked about RWBY, but here's the interesting thing.

In the aforementioned three part video series, there is a clip showing Monty Oum discussing how a trend he was not too fond of in modern media was the audience knowing 'everything' about a character from the word go. He expressed a desire to create a series where you see a surface level version of the character only to see new dimensions and depth be revealed or grow as time goes on and you grow to love them.

And well heck if Qrow doesn't kinda embody exactly that with my experience on his character. Cos as noted, I disliked his jokey alcoholism, his aggressive antagonism and dogged loyalty to Ozpin and all that came with it. But here's the thing, the show wasn't actually portraying these as good things; they just hadn't started revealing that fact yet.

During V6 Qrow's dogged loyalty to Ozpin is tested first by the man's deception of his allies regarding the Relic & his seeming defense of the man after that ends with him seeing his allies close ranks around Ruby protectively, they fear what his loyalty will make him do.

Then he has his loyalty and world view utterly and irrevocably shattered.

The cause for which he'd fought, lost friends, forsaken family, thought gave his life meaning & was granted to him by a trusted mentor figure was built on a life. He thought he was in Opzin's confidence, he thought Salem could be defeated because of Ozpin's words, he thought people he cared about that died, died to win, not just to push-back the clock on Armageddon because their boss has no idea what he was doing & refused to shared that with them.

It destroyed him, he became bitter, resigned, more inclined to lash out, often unfairly.

His alcoholism went from jokey "Isn't he a rogue" to debilitating and self destructive. There's no such thing as functional alcoholism but before this things were 'good enough' that his dependence on alcohol could be shrugged off by himself & those around him but but not after the illusion had been shattered.

His already present self hatred, the thing that made him such an eager recruit for Ozpin & so committed to him left him constantly resigned to failure & he sought to blame himself.

And all of these were challenged as well, primarily by Ruby but also by other's total unwillingness to give up and steadily, with shaky steps that rocked back and forth he moved forward and still is. V7 wasn't the end of his arc, its a peak point in his dramatic & personal development and I am very interested to see where it goes, kudos CRWBY, kudos.

 

[Pugman]

Anyone here ever really make OCs?

 

[Zam]

Anyone here ever really make OCs?

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I made quite a few for my White Fang AU, coming up with the names was haaaard XD

 

[Pugman]

I know me and my fiance TRIED to do an RP back in like late 2016 with OCs
I think I was a faunus but the catch was I was from the only faunus family to have a big dust business. Nowhere near as rich and affluent as the Schnees, but the family was known and thusly a target of both Jac AND some White Fang actions. Kind of stuck between "How dare a faunus try to be as rich/successful as me?" and "This faunus family sells out to the humans, yatta yatta yatta" is what I think my character's deal was.
Meanwhile my fiance had a human character, fought with a rope dart (it took a long while to figure out a weapon for her) and her theme color was red.
Beyond that I can't really remember.

 

[Leingod]

I've made several, and honestly, I never really had much difficulty with the names and have had trouble understanding the perspective of people when they say they do. If anything, the color rule both makes it more fun and is a good way to spur extra thought about a character and make me consider my concepts from another angle by imposing a limitation that means I can't just tweak and change and control every single aspect of a character whenever the mood strikes me. I think this ties back into Monty's ideas about "controlled chaos" being a good way to spur creativity and keep you from either getting bogged down into minutiae or from having your stuff feel artificial and purpose-built.

I would guess that part of the problem people tend to have is that they use too narrow of a definition and keep trying to find names that mean colors instead of just trying to figure out how a name they come across might suggest a color, and how you can lean into that for the character's design to get this idea across and how that might inform the character.

 

[Zam]

I would guess that part of the problem people tend to have is that they use too narrow of a definition and keep trying to find names that mean colors instead of just trying to figure out how a name they come across might suggest a color, and how you can lean into that for the character's design to get this idea across and how that might inform the character.

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I feel seen, called out, in this photo & not liking it and also my wig appears to be missing, how dare you XD

But yeah that's more or less what happens with me, I am very literal so color suggestions sorta glide right by me, haha.

 

[Leingod]

I feel seen, called out, in this photo & not liking it and also my wig appears to be missing, how dare you XD

But yeah that's more or less what happens with me, I am very literal so color suggestions sorta glide right by me, haha.

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Something helpful to remember is that the name (unless this is just a name you're going to be throwing out in conversation as a throwaway) doesn't exist in a vacuum; the name and the character's actual design are mutually reinforcing. Several names wouldn't immediately make you think of a given color on their own, but when attached to a person who has a lot of that color in their design it sparks an "Oh, I get it" reaction.

Like, say I name a character "Vesper," which means "twilight." There are a lot of colors you can associate with that: purple, orange, red, etc., so that no one color is guaranteed to be everyone's first thought when they hear the word. But pick one as the dominant color and use one or two others as accents, and there you go, you've got a color name.

 

[Zam]

Something helpful to remember is that the name (unless this is just a name you're going to be throwing out in conversation as a throwaway) doesn't exist in a vacuum; the name and the character's actual design are mutually reinforcing. Several names wouldn't immediately make you think of a given color on their own, but when attached to a person who has a lot of that color in their design it sparks an "Oh, I get it" reaction.

Like, say I name a character "Vesper," which means "twilight." There are a lot of colors you can associate with that: purple, orange, red, etc., so that no one color is guaranteed to be everyone's first thought when they hear the word. But pick one as the dominant color and use one or two others as accents, and there you go, you've got a color name.

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Oooh that's very intriguing and well laid out, I like it! I do try to do that but I am less creative, Grey is like my default for boring mid tier characters, while other stuff is usually like "Their hair is blonde, so something to do with corn" and such XD Kudos there, thanks for laying it out so well!

 

[Leingod]

Oooh that's very intriguing and well laid out, I like it! I do try to do that but I am less creative, Grey is like my default for boring mid tier characters, while other stuff is usually like "Their hair is blonde, so something to do with corn" and such XD Kudos there, thanks for laying it out so well!

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The best remedy for small reference pools is research, and websites like behindthename.com are your best friends... except maybe this document:

Comprehensive List of Color Names - RWBY OC Resource

docs.google.com

Just Ctrl+F and type in what color you're looking for.

 

[Pugman]

for my rp I also tried to have an oc team that me and my fiance were not in
the 4 people of this team were all based on Kamen Riders, but I only remember the base of 2
1 was based on Blade and fought with a broadsword that could do energy beams with dust rounds or something, was the team leader and of course had a knight/king theme kinda going
2 was a lizard/reptile faunus with a big strong tail for the trait and based on OOO's PuToTyra form, so of course his weapon was an Axe/Gun.
and that is all I can recall.
I don't think I even have a working flashdrive with any info I MIGHT of saved