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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • You know, I was just going to come here to leave a link to Hbomberguy's SomethingAwful posts, but then I see the abuse of the "deconstruction" label above me, and I kinda just lose a lot of the will to say anything except "Deconstruction is not a genre, not a twist, and not a spice. It's a form of literary analysis, and shows CANNOT be a deconstruction unless they are LITERALLY episodes 25 and 26 of Evangelion". Man, I hate what TVTropes has done to the English dictionary...
     
    Greener223224 said:
    You know, I was just going to come here to leave a link to Hbomberguy's SomethingAwful posts, but then I see the abuse of the "deconstruction" label above me, and I kinda just lose a lot of the will to say anything except "Deconstruction is not a genre, not a twist, and not a spice. It's a form of literary analysis, and shows CANNOT be a deconstruction unless they are LITERALLY episodes 25 and 26 of Evangelion". Man, I hate what TVTropes has done to the English dictionary...
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    Why does it matter? If you know what they mean, I know what they mean, and their point gets across who cares what words they use? English is a living language and things change as their use changes over time.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Why does it matter? If you know what they mean, I know what they mean, and their point gets across who cares what words they use? English is a living language and things change as their use changes over time.
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    Except the thing I know they mean is a lot less sophisticated than they think it is. "Deconstruction" really just means "It does this thing that a bunch of other works do, but I like it anyways because I've rationalized this show to be better than those other shows". There could be more well-articulated ways for somebody to say "I like this thing that happens because X Y and Z personal experience", but just phrasing it like "I like this because it's a deconstruction" just makes you sound like Dan Brown calling everything "Symbology" in between screwing up the Latin translation for "wax".
     
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    Greener223224 said:
    Except the thing I know they mean is a lot less sophisticated than they think it is. "Deconstruction" really just means "It does this thing that a bunch of other works do, but I like it anyways because I've rationalized this show to be better than those other shows". There could be more well-articulated ways for somebody to say "I like this thing that happens because X Y and Z personal experience", but just phrasing it like "I like this because it's a deconstruction" just makes you sound like Dan Brown calling everything "Symbology" in between screwing up the Latin translation for "wax".
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    Except when people usually say something is a deconstruction they mean "the show does x y and z then shows why those things are bad in stark contrast to most other shows which do it in a positive light". For instance, if you have a cop show where the main character is a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules and does a bunch of crazy shit to catch the bad guy then in the end of the show his actions have ruined the investigation, destroyed his career and allowed the bad guy to walk away that's a deconstruction of the cowboy cop genre which has the opposite happen.
     
    Zam said:
    Given he makes constant jabs at the voice acting, disparages the writers, claims the musicians stole music, along with perpetuates dozens of provably false statements I disagree, its garbage and a waste of time.
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    I don't intend to watch the video, unless someone gives me a very compelling argument to spend 2 1/2 hours of my time, but I feel the claims that the musicians stole music is a serious accusation that requires more explanation.
     
    Greener223224 said:
    "Deconstruction is not a genre, not a twist, and not a spice. It's a form of literary analysis, and shows CANNOT be a deconstruction unless they are LITERALLY episodes 25 and 26 of Evangelion"
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    While I agree with you on the first part, I cannot in good faith agree with the second part.

    The thing with Deconstruction, at least in the modern Troper language, is to take a genre or trope and apply real world logic and consequences to whatever it is that its deconstructing.
    VolantRedX said:
    Except when people usually say something is a deconstruction they mean "the show does x y and z then shows why those things are bad in stark contrast to most other shows which do it in a positive light". For instance, if you have a cop show where the main character is a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules and does a bunch of crazy shit to catch the bad guy then in the end of the show his actions have ruined the investigation, destroyed his career and allowed the bad guy to walk away that's a deconstruction of the cowboy cop genre which has the opposite happen.
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    You hit the nail on the head, good sir. I'll bring up that RWBY also dabbled in deconstruction, though, I will say that some of it is rather subjective, which I think might be the problem with Greener's case.

    For instance, you can view Ozpin's character as a deconstruction of the "mentor who keeps the protagonists in the dark" trope by showing how desperate he is to conceal those secrets and revealing that they're all just skeletons in his closet that he's too embarrassed to show, and that, at the same time, the protagonists slowly lose their trust in him when they eventually find those secrets out in, sometimes, the worst possible ways.

    Of course, this is just my idea of what a deconstruction could be. You might just think of it as something else.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Except when people usually say something is a deconstruction they mean "the show does x y and z then shows why those things are bad in stark contrast to most other shows which do it in a positive light". For instance, if you have a cop show where the main character is a loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules and does a bunch of crazy shit to catch the bad guy then in the end of the show his actions have ruined the investigation, destroyed his career and allowed the bad guy to walk away that's a deconstruction of the cowboy cop genre which has the opposite happen.
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    That's not a "deconstruction". That's "a take". Tropes are tropes. Whichever way you're using them, you're playing it straight. You're just taking a distinctly different direction than how another work uses those tropes. If a specific take becomes mainstream and widespread, then using a different take isn't "deconstruction", it's just a fresher take than the usual because it isn't as saturated in the zeitgeist.

    Analysis, deconstruction and reconstruction. What is the trope, why the trope exists, and how the trope is used.
     
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    Greener223224 said:
    That's not a "deconstruction". That's "a take". Tropes are tropes. Whichever way you're using them, you're playing it straight. You're just taking a distinctly different direction than how another work uses those tropes. If a specific take becomes mainstream and widespread, then using a different take isn't "deconstruction", it's just fresher.

    Analysis, deconstruction and reconstruction. What is the trope, why the trope exists, and how the trope is used.
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    That seems like pointless pedantry for the sake of it.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    But you are the one insisting on an older less common use of a word despite everyone else knowing what is meant by "deconstruction" for no reason.
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    Yes, because I hate buzzwords. Just talk like human beings for once, don't pretend you're smarter than you actually are and try to rationalize why you like shallow shows. It gives me a headache.
     
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    Greener223224 said:
    Yes, because I hate buzzwords. Just talk like human beings for once, don't pretend you're smarter than you actually are and try to rationalize why you like shallow shows. It gives me a headache.
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    Ok, but like people use the term deconstruction because it gets their point across and allows people to follow along. It doesn't matter if you don't like it, it is what people use to describe things.
     
    Marco said:
    I don't intend to watch the video, unless someone gives me a very compelling argument to spend 2 1/2 hours of my time, but I feel the claims that the musicians stole music is a serious accusation that requires more explanation.
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    This is that part basically, it is a total nothing burger, he insinuates that Jeff Williams stole Raven's theme from part 2 from the credits of the 2014 Godzilla movie which is rather stupid as they don't really sound similar at all. He says that its a joke but he keeps making the same sort of trollish suggestion.

    For reference the two tracks in question.



    Also, I'd like to note that from both my skimming and other people's more in-depth reactions there is a near-total lack of anything in the video that isn't directly based on the issues of 2015 and before that the show has largely grown out of.
     
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    tygerbright said:
    This is that part basically, it is a total nothing burger, he insinuates that Jeff Williams stole Raven's theme from part 2 from the credits of the 2014 Godzilla movie which is rather stupid as they don't really sound similar at all. He says that its a joke but he keeps making the same sort of trollish suggestion.
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    I honestly don't know how they're the same. At least when someone points out how Dragonball Kai ripped off Avatar, you can notice the chord progression.
     
    tygerbright said:

    This is that part basically, it is a total nothing burger, he insinuates that Jeff Williams stole Raven's theme from part 2 from the credits of the 2014 Godzilla movie which is rather stupid as they don't really sound similar at all. He says that its a joke but he keeps making the same sort of trollish suggestion.

    For reference the two tracks in question.



    Also, I'd like to note that from both my skimming and other people's more in-depth reactions there is a near-total lack of anything in the video that isn't directly based on the issues of 2015 and before that the show has largely grown out of.
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    And ok. Let us pretend for a moment that Jeff actually did crib some notes from 2014 Godzilla for a single track. Who fucking cares?





    Certainly not Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, Hearth, Boston, Jive, Tommy Boy, Beastie Boys, Enigma, Dr Dre, Eminem, the entire genre of Hip Hop. Too many examples to count really.
     
    tygerbright said:
    Also, I'd like to note that from both my skimming and other people's more in-depth reactions there is a near-total lack of anything in the video that isn't directly based on the issues of 2015 and before that the show has largely grown out of.
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    I'm going to watch the video later since Hbomb is usually quite decent in his takes, but there's some things RWBY can't really "grow out of" since it got itself stuck in them. The white fang is probably the worst offender there.
     
    Gears said:
    I'm going to watch the video later since Hbomb is usually quite decent in his takes, but there's some things RWBY can't really "grow out of" since it got itself stuck in them. The white fang is probably the worst offender there.
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    From what I heard, he has a rather legit criticism on the White Fang.
     
    Mook said:
    And ok. Let us pretend for a moment that Jeff actually did crib some notes from 2014 Godzilla for a single track. Who fucking cares?





    Certainly not Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, Hearth, Boston, Jive, Tommy Boy, Beastie Boys, Enigma, Dr Dre, Eminem, the entire genre of Hip Hop. Too many examples to count really.
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    I just have a much simpler way of formatting this criticism.
    Well, I would, but I can't find any gifs of this moment from YMS's World War Z video:
     
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    Y'know, you guys could actually watch the video and address the points he made about the writing instead of lashing out on one minor thing. I know it's long but if you want to address Hbomberguy's arguments it's better to watch the thing rather than rely on second hand criticism. Also I don't precisely remember that bit but I'm pretty sure he doesn't exactly says that Williams stole the music, more that both tracks sound alike and are very generic. I could be wrong though. I was more focused on his criticism of the show's character development and handling of racism than a potentially questionable joke that he doesn't even use as a major criticism.

    And frankly he's pretty generous on some points, like how he praises the end of volume 3 despite this part also having issues (I still don't get why the show expected me to sympathize with Ozpin's incompetent ass and fucking Qrow over Ironwood, who at that point had done nothing wrong, or why the Atlesian military was suddenly a bad thing despite helping earlier during the breach). He also said that he specifically wanted to tackle the first 3 volumes in this video, so of course he's gonna address issues that mainly turn up in these.

    I know RWBY gets a lot of unfair and hateful criticism but this video doesn't qualify as that IMO. He even titled it differently than he usually does his negative criticism essays, and points out a lot of positives. Yeah, he's pretty snarky on some points, but IMO said points deserve it, especially the White Fang and the potential creepy self-insert characters.
     
    ZQFMGB said:
    Y'know, you guys could actually watch the video and address the points he made about the writing instead of lashing out on one minor thing. I know it's long but if you want to address Hbomberguy's arguments it's better to watch the thing rather than rely on second hand criticism. Also I don't precisely remember that bit but I'm pretty sure he doesn't exactly says that Williams stole the music, more that both tracks sound alike and are very generic. I could be wrong though. I was more focused on his criticism of the show's character development and handling of racism than a potentially questionable joke that he doesn't even use as a major criticism.

    And frankly he's pretty generous on some points, like how he praises the end of volume 3 despite this part also having issues (I still don't get why the show expected me to sympathize with Ozpin's incompetent ass and fucking Qrow over Ironwood, who at that point had done nothing wrong, or why the Atlesian military was suddenly a bad thing despite helping earlier during the breach). He also said that he specifically wanted to tackle the first 3 volumes in this video, so of course he's gonna address issues that mainly turn up in these.

    I know RWBY gets a lot of unfair and hateful criticism but this video doesn't qualify as that IMO. He even titled it differently than he usually does his negative criticism essays, and points out a lot of positives. Yeah, he's pretty snarky on some points, but IMO said points deserve it, especially the White Fang and the potential creepy self-insert characters.
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    Personally I see no need to address him at all. I think this entire thread has spent way too much time devoted to refuting one YouTube take artist after another and there's not a lot left to say nor any reason to argue it. All it does is stir up anger and pointless slap-fights over subjective issues. I don't want to spend pages and pages talking about some random internet dude talking about this show.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Personally I see no need to address him at all. I think this entire thread has spent way too much time devoted to refuting one YouTube take artist after another and there's not a lot left to say nor any reason to argue it. All it does is stir up anger and pointless slap-fights over subjective issues. I don't want to spend pages and pages talking about some random internet dude talking about this show.
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    I do agree that previous discussions on this front have poisoned the well by now.
     
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