Remove ads

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Reader mode
Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
    Last edited:
  • Staff Post
    • Aside from the Internet's disconnection issue regarding fiction, I kinda feel the qrow fight was mostly a excuse to have a fight scene. I don't know if it'll have any implications or if it'll be chekoved. I suspect not.
     
    Gears said:
    Aside from the Internet's disconnection issue regarding fiction, I kinda feel the qrow fight was mostly a excuse to have a fight scene. I don't know if it'll have any implications or if it'll be chekoved. I suspect not.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It barely had implications the next scene. I doubt it'd even be mentioned again. If it is it'd be one line at most.
     
    Gears said:
    Aside from the Internet's disconnection issue regarding fiction, I kinda feel the qrow fight was mostly a excuse to have a fight scene. I don't know if it'll have any implications or if it'll be chekoved. I suspect not.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    That's part of the problem I have with trying to find deeper meaning to the fight. It's hard to be really sure that the writers INTENDED one. Or that, if they did, they thought it through very much.

    Likewise with the confrontation that follows in Ozpin's office. A lot of both scenes feel like conflict for the sake of conflict -- cool fight scene for one and dramatic social tension for the next.


    I'm definitely sure that part of Qrow's reason for being so nasty is that he doesn't like Winter, or at least he enjoys bullying her. They clearly knew each other from before.


    But I want to show that there's more to Qrow than being an asshole to people who aren't family.


    Qrow interrogated Pyrrha.

    Pyrrha doesn't know it when she first meets Qrow Branwen, but before she even walked into Ozpin's office, he is judging her suitability to be the next Fall Maiden.

    If we dare to take Qrow's dialogue with the bartender at face-value, he doesn't care for Remnant's formal tournament scene. If that's true, he knows less about Mistral's Invincible Girl as a person than Weiss Schnee did on Initiation Day. There also wouldn't be time for Ozpin or Glynda to tell him much more about her, since he'd arrived apparently just the day before.

    Maybe they told him about her self-sacrificing nature and care for her friends. Ozpin certainly opened their conversation by handing her a golden opportunity to efface herself and praise her team.

    But Qrow wants to test her for himself and see how much of that behavior is genuine. So he categorically challenges her words, implicitly demeaning JN_R's abilities, to put her on the defensive and see how she reacts.

    Ozpin watches Qrow during this exchange with the same gentle smile on his face. Qrow's verbal attack does not surprise or worry him. He doesn't even glance at Pyrrha, apparently confident in her ability to handle Qrow's abrasiveness. This meeting is as much for Qrow's benefit as Pyrrha's; a chance for the last member of the conspirators to decide she is the right choice.

    Qrow is apparently satisfied with Pyrrha's response, because the next time he interjects, he commiserates with her about the craziness of magic being real. His manner is still rough and flippant, but he puts himself on her level by admitting he didn't take the surprise any easier. Never again does he contradict her or insult anything or anyone she cares about.

    When Pyrrha asks Ozpin why they're telling her about magic and the Maidens, Ozpin doesn't respond until he looks over at Qrow, who gives him a small, silent nod. Whatever he's been testing and whatever standards he used, he now agrees with Ozpin that they made a good choice. It's only after this decision that Glynda Goodwitch and James Ironwood join the meeting.

    Qrow never stops being crass or surly, but beyond this point it probably has more to do with self-directed anger for failing to rescue Amber. Walking towards her comatose body would surely be a reminder of his failure, however fair or unfair that might be.

    "Look who's been listening! She is smart." His anger seems to get the better of him in this moment, but even so he tries to play it off with his usual sarcasm and irreverence, and uses his actual words to compliment her ability to understand and adapt to these revelations.

    He calms down immediately after the outburst, and afterwards expresses just as much concern as the others regarding what the procedure might do to Pyrrha. Even his terrible posture finally straightens as compassion for her overrides his desire to feel grumpy.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    There's also the posiblity that Winter is already a Maiden and Qrow was testing her to see if she was actually ready. Given that the only Maidens we hear about either ran away or were killed, it'd make sense Qrow had reason to suspect she wasn't ready to be in the fight.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    That's a stretch. We haven't seen any evidence to support this. And if Winter were one of the Maidens, then alienating her like that would be an incredibly stupid way to end up with two renegade Maidens out there.
     
    The Narrator said:
    That's a stretch. We haven't seen any evidence to support this. And if Winter were one of the Maidens, then alienating her like that would be an incredibly stupid way to end up with two renegade Maidens out there.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It could also be that Ironwood put her forward as candidate for next Maiden or conspiracy member in general, which would still justify Qrow testing her. Which she failed.

    That failure would then explain why Ironwood dismisses Winter when Qrow says she doesn't need to be there, despite clearly having informed her about Qrow's work beforehand. And given Ironwood's penchant for going behind Ozpin's back, it's also possible he already revealed the conspiracy to Winter and was just trying to get the rest of the conspirators to rubber stamp it.

    Edit: Ah damnit I see Sunder's mega post already ninja'd me, which was hidden under the read more cut

    Still, Ironwood could have transferred the mantle to Winter without telling anyone. Thus Qrow reacted as if the above, while Ironwood decided not to step on anymore toes when Winter effed up.
     
    Last edited:
    The Narrator said:
    That's a stretch. We haven't seen any evidence to support this. And if Winter were one of the Maidens, then alienating her like that would be an incredibly stupid way to end up with two renegade Maidens out there.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I mean her name is Winter. It's also pretty likely that RWBY will end up becoming the Maidens themselves, and it seems like they're setting up each member with someone personal to end up being their predecessor. Ruby has Cinder, Yang has Raven, Weiss would have Winter. What's more, it seemed like Qrow and Winter had some history together and thus he likely knew she was deeply loyal to Ironwood so it really wouldn't matter what he said or did.
     
    Ironwood and Winter cannot get to Amber and the transfer machine without going through Ozpin's personal castle. If he wanted Winter to become the half-Fall Maiden, he would NEED Ozpin's approval.
     
    MinorGryph said:
    Ironwood could have transferred the mantle of Maiden he was responsible for to Winter without Ozpin's approval.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    I mean that would involved capturing a Maiden, ripping out her soul and getting Winter to agree to the process despite the uncertainties and then deciding to hide that including the effects doing so would have on Pyrrha.
     
    MinorGryph said:
    Ironwood could have transferred the mantle of Maiden he was responsible for to Winter without Ozpin's approval.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Definitely easier to do, and that may be the sort of thing headmasters are allowed to decide on their own when they have a choice.

    We don't have any proof that Ironwood got a say in approving of Pyrrha Nikos, though I proved above that Ozpin waited to have Qrow's input before taking the full plunge.

    Anyway, speaking about Qrow again, I want to point out how he treated Yang.

    Qrow interrogated Yang.

    Yang's unprovoked attack against Mercury shocked and concerned Qrow as much as anyone else who knows her personally. Her father is away on a mission, so Qrow steps in as her back-up father-figure to deal with the problem.

    He starts their conversation as the Good Cop; his tone is gentle and warm, and he uses a familiar, childhood nickname. It's an invitation to open up and trust him, but she only barely returns the greeting. So he cuts to the chase by asking her why she broke Mercury's leg, though his tone is still inviting and nonjudgmental; simply curious.

    But Yang still refuses to open up, and now she's getting hostile and evasive. "You know why."

    That disrespectful non-explanation isn't going to fly, so now he becomes the Bad Cop. His tone becomes harsher, and he challenges her by laying out the facts as he and the angry public sees them. As usual for Qrow, he tries to put his conversational opponent on the defensive, ending his words with a challenge that allows him to steer the conversation: "Either you're lying, or you're crazy."

    Most likely he thought she was lying; that she acted out of impulse and was trying to claim Mercury attacked her to cover up for her own mistake. He expected her to confess. Unpleasant as the admission would be, he knows how to work with the consequences of bad choices, to fix a situation as much as possible.

    "I'm not lying." But nothing else from her. No new information that suggests she isn't actually lying, or that gives him anything to work with.

    He softens his tone, but continues to prod at her to get more of an explanation. "Hmm. Crazy. Got it."

    When she brushes that aside with a defeatist attitude, he tries to steer her away from that unhelpful direction by mocking her partner, Blake. Perhaps he expected to rouse her spirit in defense of her friend and give him an opening to redirect the conversation to more productive ground.

    Instead she tells him that she saw Raven, and finally opens up about her self-doubt.

    With this new information, Qrow recognizes that he's misjudged the situation from the start, and his firecracker really thinks she's going insane. So he responds with a forceful denial and proceeds to spill the beans on his conversation with Raven. To further make up for his misguided accusations, he provides Yang with more information about her mother's activities and location than she had ever been given before in her life.


    Zam said:
    I mean that would involved capturing a Maiden, ripping out her soul and getting Winter to agree to the process despite the uncertainties and then deciding to hide that including the effects doing so would have on Pyrrha.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    He's probably assuming, as I am, that the Winter Maiden is under Ironwood's protection and is loyal to him, and probably getting close to death from old age. She might even be a person who WANTS to accept a euthanized death while looking her chosen successor in the eyes to transfer her power.
     
    Last edited:
    Zam said:
    I mean that would involved capturing a Maiden, ripping out her soul and getting Winter to agree to the process despite the uncertainties and then deciding to hide that including the effects doing so would have on Pyrrha.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Or it would involve convincing a loyal Maiden of unknown age to picture Winter when she passed naturally. If the Maiden was diehard loyal to the military, conspiracy, or [insert cause here] Ironwood also could have set up a more controlled scenario to pass on the mantle such as medical euthanasia or a duel to the death to prove Winter's worth.

    Edit: Damn your ninja training, Sunder
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    He's probably assuming, as I am, that the Winter Maiden is under Ironwood's protection and is loyal to him, and probably getting close to death from old age. She might even be a person who WANTS to accept a euthanized death while looking her chosen successor in the eyes to transfer her power.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Given the context of the discussion I was unsure.

    MinorGryph said:
    Or it would involve convincing a loyal Maiden of unknown age to picture Winter when she passed naturally. If the Maiden was diehard loyal to the military, conspiracy, or [insert cause here] Ironwood also could have set up a more controlled scenario to pass on the mantle such as medical euthanasia or a duel to the death to prove Winter's worth.

    Edit: Damn your ninja training, Sunder
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    If said Maiden did die under such circumstances I eel Ironwood could not hide it or have exclusive control over the situation, that is to say, Ozpin and the others would know Winter was the Maiden, or Ironwood was lying to them about even more stuff and also would have to make it look like he lost a Maiden. Plus there'd be no logical reason to make Winter leave the meeting if she was the Maiden.
     
    Zam said:
    Given the context of the discussion I was unsure.


    If said Maiden did die under such circumstances I eel Ironwood could not hide it or have exclusive control over the situation, that is to say, Ozpin and the others would know Winter was the Maiden, or Ironwood was lying to them about even more stuff and also would have to make it look like he lost a Maiden. Plus there'd be no logical reason to make Winter leave the meeting if she was the Maiden.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Oz only knew Amber had been attacked because Qrow, his loyal subordinate, was onsite. All Ironwood would have to do is not report the death.

    Ironwood also had no logical reason to conceal the fact that Penny was a robot with a lethal allergy to magnetic fields.
     
    The Narrator said:
    Whilst Emerald will probably want revenge for Cinder, given that she was shown to be visibly disturbed by watching both the Grimm attack on Beacon and the Grimm spawning process at the start of Volume 4, I suspect she's not going to be all that amenable to Salem's intentions in the long run.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...

    I expect Salem is going to help direct her personal growth.
     
    MinorGryph said:
    Oz only knew Amber had been attacked because Qrow, his loyal subordinate, was onsite. All Ironwood would have to do is not report the death.

    Ironwood also had no logical reason to conceal the fact that Penny was a robot with a lethal allergy to magnetic fields.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Given Qrow knew of Amber's skill level, relative experience ETC, along with Spring having been managed by Leo, I think it is reasonable to assume each school had a Maiden corresponding to their Vault, but as was established Ozpin is in charge of the conspiracy so not keeping him informed and him not being relatively aware of the Maidens current states when they aren't running off, seems unlikely to me. Plus Amber was out in the wilderness when she was assassinated, people here seem to be suggesting a Maiden on her death bed, which Ozpin should presumably have been kept informed of.

    I don't know what you are getting at here.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    Ironwood and Winter cannot get to Amber and the transfer machine without going through Ozpin's personal castle. If he wanted Winter to become the half-Fall Maiden, he would NEED Ozpin's approval.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Well...

    Ironwood: So, Oz, instead of popping the question to some inexperienced girl who might not be ready for what we say, there's Winter who is trained and can take orders. Also, strongly resilient to mind breaks.
    Ozpin: Lol, no. Let me go Kyubey on Pyrrha.
     
    Zam said:
    Given Qrow knew of Amber's skill level, relative experience ETC, along with Spring having been managed by Leo, I think it is reasonable to assume each school had a Maiden corresponding to their Vault, but as was established Ozpin is in charge of the conspiracy so not keeping him informed and him not being relatively aware of the Maidens current states when they aren't running off, seems unlikely to me. Plus Amber was out in the wilderness when she was assassinated, people here seem to be suggesting a Maiden on her death bed, which Ozpin should presumably have been kept informed of.

    I don't know what you are getting at here.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Ozpin doesn't have omnipotent knowledge of the Maiden's status ot anything. He only knows what his subordinates bother to report, which Qrow has failed to do on occasion and both Ironwood and Lionheart abused. Ironwood also has a precedent of concealing things from Oz and going behind his back to implement solutions he knows Oz won't agree with.

    Solutions like unilaterally deciding the next Maiden candidate should be Winter, who is personally loyal to Ironwood and embedded in an organization he runs.
    Psyga315 said:
    Well...

    Ironwood: So, Oz, instead of popping the question to some inexperienced girl who might not be ready for what we say, there's Winter who is trained and can take orders. Also, strongly resilient to mind breaks.
    Ozpin: Lol, no. Let me go Kyubey on Pyrrha.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    More like
    Ozpin: fuck no Winter just assaulted my best agent in public. How does that show she's more ready for worldview shattering choices than my proposed candidate?
     
    MinorGryph said:
    Ozpin doesn't have omnipotent knowledge of the Maiden's status ot anything. He only knows what his subordinates bother to report, which Qrow has failed to do on occasion and both Ironwood and Lionheart abused. Ironwood also has a precedent of concealing things from Oz and going behind his back to implement solutions he knows Oz won't agree with.

    Solutions like unilaterally deciding the next Maiden candidate should be Winter, who is personally loyal to Ironwood and embedded in an organization he runs.
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    This is true, nominally though I feel you may be overstating it based on the example of Amber (who was travelling) and Spring (Who ran away) but I feel like if a Maiden was old enough or sick enough to be on her deathbed it would not be something that one could easily hide without making it obvious you were hiding something. Then convincing her to transfer said powers to Winter before conveniently dying, then covering up said death so no one knows the Winter Maiden is now a soldier under only your command, and then continuing to hide it from everyone seems both hard to pull off and hilariously untrustworthy on Ironwood's part.

    Anyway there's no evidence I can see for this besides Winter having a name that corresponds to a season so, while not impossible I find little evidence to support it.

    MinorGryph said:
    Ozpin: fuck no Winter just assaulted my best agent in public. How does that show she's more ready for worldview shattering choices than my proposed candidate?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Given Qrow smashed her robot soldiers, tried to scare everyone about Atlas, shoved around one of his students and goaded Winter into said fight, what qualifies a violent drunk who undermines unity and public faith ready to be part of the conspiracy?
     
    Last edited:
    Zam said:
    Given Qrow smashed her robot soldiers, tried to scare everyone about Atlas, shoved around one of his students and goaded Winter into said fight, what qualifies a violent drunk who undermines unity and public faith ready to be part of the conspiracy?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    Making a mistake 20 years ago (or longer) does not justify a mistake now.
     
    MinorGryph said:
    Ozpin doesn't have omnipotent knowledge of the Maiden's status ot anything. He only knows what his subordinates bother to report, which Qrow has failed to do on occasion and both Ironwood and Lionheart abused. Ironwood also has a precedent of concealing things from Oz and going behind his back to implement solutions he knows Oz won't agree with.

    Solutions like unilaterally deciding the next Maiden candidate should be Winter, who is personally loyal to Ironwood and embedded in an organization he runs.

    More like
    Ozpin: fuck no Winter just assaulted my best agent in public. How does that show she's more ready for worldview shattering choices than my proposed candidate?
    Click to expand...
    Click to shrink...
    It's possibly more like:

    Ozpin: we have no fucking clue what will actually happen when we flip the switch and Winter is more useful as an active agent rather than a brain-dead vegetable or insane.
     
    Reader mode
    You must login or register to reply here.
    Remove ads
    Back
    Top