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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • @thesevenwielder to answer your question about why people like Qrow in spite of his negative traits, it's the same reason people like Archer, Rick Sanchez or James Bond. They're all objectively pretty shitty people but they have a certain charm and are both very good at their jobs while also not being totally humorless buzzkills. People are drawn to that sort of person for good or ill. Qrow, for lack of a better word, is cool and people simply enjoy cool characters.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    @thesevenwielder to answer your question about why people like Qrow in spite of his negative traits, it's the same reason people like Archer, Rick Sanchez or James Bond. They're all objectively pretty shitty people but they have a certain charm and are both very good at their jobs while also not being totally humorless buzzkills. People are drawn to that sort of person for good or ill. Qrow, for lack of a better word, is cool and people simply enjoy cool characters.
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    That, and he pretty clearly cares about Ruby and Yang a lot, so there's the whole 'redeeming qualities' thing he has going for him.
     
    So Liar on the SB thread had this to say:
    I can't take most YouTubers seriously when it comes to commentary. I don't see the appeal of them. In my view, their opinions have the same value as just another poster on here.
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    And you know what? I agree with the guy. Sure the guys making these videos put forth more effort than most posters but at the end of the day their opinions have no more weight than the average person on this site.

    Which is why I think it's positively ludicrous whenever someone here tries to dismiss a YouTube video as the person who made it being just in it for the money, going for that sweet YouTube ad Revenue. It feels like they can't even comprehend that people may genuinely dislike the show or at least parts of it. Man, for the past few years YouTubes terms of service means you get so little money your videos that the very idea that people would put in so much time and effort for 'ad revenue' is... Stupid, to say the least. There's a reason that these days, most YouTubers are switching to alternate forms of income, like patreon
     
    FYI @Liar has an account here, you can reply to him directly.

    Edit:
    Taking a closer look at the Sphinx made me realize it DOES have a human face; the mask and jaw are shaped like a human skull! This fits both the mythic depiction and the Grimm's skeleton aesthetic.

    Additionally the skull appears to be closer in proportions to a baby or child skull than an adult's. Future Alpha version confirmed?

    Also lmao Oscar dropped the relic when the train crashed... Guess we know why Ruby's carrying it in the trailer.
     
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    Assembler said:
    She freaks the fuck out whenever somebody cuts her hair against her will and you think not wanting her bike damaged is uncharacteristically vain?
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    Nor is it surprising if you've ever known anyone who rides a motorcycle, because motorcycle riders are somewhat infamous for their reluctance to let other people to touch their bikes.

    Never mind that if Yang is the one who wants to bring this bike, despite how little use a bike would be for such a large group, the least she could do is push it herself.

    SolipsistSerpent said:
    That's a pretty logical deduction. "Hi, I'm Queen of the Genocidal monsters that your entire culture is devoted to fighting and you've been raised to fear since infancy. Want to work for me in my plans that might wipe out the human race?" is not going to go over well with most people.
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    This. It's not like evil minions are something you can buy on Amazon, and Salem just didn't think to order four of them. (Amazon is hoarding all the evil minions for themselves, of course. :p) There are probably not a lot of people out there who are insane enough to want to help destroy civilization in exchange for magic powers, but stable enough to actual complete objectives instead of just arguing with lampposts while covered in their own excrement. That's a very specific level of crazy. And how many of those are also skilled fighters with powerful Auras? And how many of those are females of Maiden age? She's lucky to have found one. She may not have struck before because it took her this long to do so.
     
    I will note how the Ozluminati do mostly send Qrow out on solo missions ^^ And I feel confident he dropped a lot more info offscreen than we heard, and he has networks of trusted huntsmen that he apparently builds (and Leo dismantled one of them).

    So it's not that he's useless or such, the network building is very useful, but he is abrasive, especially when he's in a bad mood.

    As for Salem and Maiden candidates, as a bonus that one seems to have perhaps found another with the right cultivation.... (Emerald). And she may discover another near her circle too (Neo).
     
    Q99 said:
    As for Salem and Maiden candidates, as a bonus that one seems to have perhaps found another with the right cultivation.... (Emerald).
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    Whilst Emerald will probably want revenge for Cinder, given that she was shown to be visibly disturbed by watching both the Grimm attack on Beacon and the Grimm spawning process at the start of Volume 4, I suspect she's not going to be all that amenable to Salem's intentions in the long run.
     
    The Narrator said:
    Nor is it surprising if you've ever known anyone who rides a motorcycle, because motorcycle riders are somewhat infamous for their reluctance to let other people to touch their bikes.

    Never mind that if Yang is the one who wants to bring this bike, despite how little use a bike would be for such a large group, the least she could do is push it herself.
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    I wouldn't wanna let strangers ride that kinda bike if i had one either. Not to mention the rest of the team probably doesn't know how to ride a bike.

    Would you trust ruby with a bike? No. Let ruby get her own bike to drive into a wall.
     
    For what it is worth, everyone who I know who owns a bike is stubbornly protective of it and don't let others touch or tinker them without any good reason.
     
    Gears said:
    I wouldn't wanna let strangers ride that kinda bike if i had one either. Not to mention the rest of the team probably doesn't know how to ride a bike.

    Would you trust ruby with a bike? No. Let ruby get her own bike to drive into a wall.
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    Except she is letting some rando ride it while she's pushing.
    Q99 said:
    I will note how the Ozluminati do mostly send Qrow out on solo missions ^^ And I feel confident he dropped a lot more info offscreen than we heard, and he has networks of trusted huntsmen that he apparently builds (and Leo dismantled one of them).

    So it's not that he's useless or such, the network building is very useful, but he is abrasive, especially when he's in a bad mood.

    As for Salem and Maiden candidates, as a bonus that one seems to have perhaps found another with the right cultivation.... (Emerald). And she may discover another near her circle too (Neo).
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    That's the problem. It's all offscreen. It might as well have not happened. Maybe get rid of some of those pointless fights in v3 and have more worldbuilding. I don't necessarily have a problem with standing around and talking itself, just with how the show pulls it off. It is possible to naturally convey information about the plot without resorting to infodumps or the like.

    As for Neo, purely hypothetical for now. That may change, but given we've had two entire volumes without her, I assume she was eaten by a stray Alwaysless while she was Mary Poppins-ing away.

    Fine. @Sunder the Gold, I apologize for misreading your post. I've seen so many people leap to Qrow's defense during that scene that I misread your explanation as another justification for Qrow's terrible behavior. I'll avoid doing that in the future.
    VolantRedX said:
    @thesevenwielder to answer your question about why people like Qrow in spite of his negative traits, it's the same reason people like Archer, Rick Sanchez or James Bond. They're all objectively pretty shitty people but they have a certain charm and are both very good at their jobs while also not being totally humorless buzzkills. People are drawn to that sort of person for good or ill. Qrow, for lack of a better word, is cool and people simply enjoy cool characters.
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    I don't know Archer or Rick Sanchez, but for the most part Bond isn't an asshole in most versions. Sure he snarks from time to time, but it's far outweighed by his charm. I don't think the same applies to Qrow, who has few redeeming values. Sure he's not working for the bad guys, but that's an awful low bar to clear.

    @Mook you give the writers far more credit than I do. You seem to think they are doing in-depth research and choosing obscure mythological references. I do not have that much faith in them. To me they have squandered every last bit of goodwill. They need to earn my trust back before i will give them the benefit of the doubt. Because to me it looks like laziness.

    tygerbright said:
    People are trying to engage with your arguments, it would be nice if you responded rather than going on a tangent. Especially one that isn't super revelent to either the current topic or that, I think, anyone here particularly opposes.
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    Looking at the quality and politeness of some of the replies to me, I'd rather not respond at all.
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    Except she is letting some rando ride it while she's pushing.
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    except she's not? or does that crosslegged seat indicate actively riding a bike?

    like, come on man this is pretty petty to start a flamewar over. Bike owners don't usually let people ride their bikes, but that does not exclude passengers. Yang's not acting weird or nonsensical in any of her behavior about her bike. This is pretty sub-par stuff to get pedantic about.
     
    People would be complaining if the trailer showed the old granny walking through the snow instead. They can't win with this.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    @thesevenwielder to answer your question about why people like Qrow in spite of his negative traits, it's the same reason people like Archer, Rick Sanchez or James Bond. They're all objectively pretty shitty people but they have a certain charm and are both very good at their jobs while also not being totally humorless buzzkills. People are drawn to that sort of person for good or ill. Qrow, for lack of a better word, is cool and people simply enjoy cool characters.
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    I will say though this feeling is not universal in most of my circles Qrow is not well liked and I am no fan to be honest even if I accept others are. I enjoy but don't like characters like Archer or Rick but those shows acknowledge they are bad, toxic people so it makes it easier to enjoy their absurdity.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    I don't know Archer or Rick Sanchez, but for the most part Bond isn't an asshole in most versions. Sure he snarks from time to time, but it's far outweighed by his charm. I don't think the same applies to Qrow, who has few redeeming values. Sure he's not working for the bad guys, but that's an awful low bar to clear.
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    I mean Bond does a lot of really shitty things over the course of the films. He's basically a government paid killer and has the same level of empathy or emotional depth as that career path would dictate. Rick and Archer are actually a lot worse that Qrow is. Hell Archer and Qrow are basically the same characters with the sole exception that Qrow seems more socially aware.

    You wanted to know why people like and support Qrow, despite his failings, and the answer is that Qrow is cool. Not in a tryhard edgy way like Adam, but in an actually cool and charming way. He comes off as an unflappable bad boy on the edge who plays by his own rules and doesn't afraid of anybody. As a rule, people find such characters appealing and interesting. See also pretty much every character Clint Eastwood has ever played.

    thesevenwielder said:
    @Mook you give the writers far more credit than I do. You seem to think they are doing in-depth research and choosing obscure mythological references. I do not have that much faith in them. To me they have squandered every last bit of goodwill. They need to earn my trust back before i will give them the benefit of the doubt. Because to me it looks like laziness.
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    I mean it's likely laziness, or more likely it's because it sounds cool and doesn't you know matter.

    thesevenwielder said:
    Looking at the quality and politeness of some of the replies to me, I'd rather not respond at all.
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    Yet the times you seem unwilling to reply to are not the people yelling at you over nothing but the people who offer real debate with examples and honest reflection.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Fine. @Sunder the Gold, I apologize for misreading your post. I've seen so many people leap to Qrow's defense during that scene that I misread your explanation as another justification for Qrow's terrible behavior. I'll avoid doing that in the future.
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    Thank you.

    Now that you're staying on-topic, I can agree with you about something you said. (An example of that "common ground" I was talking about.)

    Specifically, you were right in that Qrow's behavior towards Winter becomes WORSE when you realize how deliberate the entire thing was.

    Let me repost my drafts from Spacebattles. I'm trying to turn this stuff into more articles for my Tumblr blog. Adjudicator is an SB posted who first delved into this aspect of Qrow's character, and he granted me permission to make articles out of it.


    How Qrow provoked Winter

    To get the fight he wants, Qrow hammers every button Winter Schnee has. Against Winter in 3x02 he systematically pushes every button he can think of. The Atlas military that allowed her to escape her father and give her meaning in life? Property destroyed and implication that they can't/won't protect Vale. Ironwood, who she probably views as a surrogate father (if he treated her at all the way he treats RWY) since she was at Atlas Academy? Specifically called out. Qrow pretends to be drunk to evoke her damaged relationship with her alcoholic mother. He shushes and then shoves her beloved little sister. He's deliberately pushing her to her limit, and she breaks.

    EDIT: These are Adjudicator's exact words. I could expand upon them, and would if I write an article for it, but I'm not sure it's worth an article just on their own. No offense to Adjudicator; it worked as part of the original post, but cut off by itself it's not much. The ways in which he manipulated her and hammered her buttons are rather blatant and obvious.


    Qrow even fools his allies

    Qrow would have people believe he's an emotional, impulsive drunk. It's all a lie.

    Winter didn't know it, but he didn't decide to provoke her to a fight after getting drunk; he decided to wait for her to arrive before he started drinking. Further, the angrier Winter gets, the more sober Qrow behaves. He doesn't appear inebriated in the slightest when he makes his final challenge. Did he actually get drunk in that bar, or did he merely make sure to smell like it? How much of that was an act?

    Ironwood betraying Ozpin to Vale's council certainly upset Qrow, as he reveals to Winter. But Qrow could pick a fight personally with the man himself any time, rather than targeting subordinates who had no bearing on such decisions. Moreover, such a duel could happen somewhere far more private and less likely to start an international incident or undermine the public peace that Qrow fights so hard to maintain.

    His fellow conspirators didn't know Qrow had even returned from the field until they found him fighting Winter. He didn't warn them he had arrived. So he very deliberately meant to announce his return to them by baiting Winter to disgrace herself in public. He didn't do any of this impulsively; he planned all of this.

    Qrow later complains to Ironwood about not sending him any information while he was out in the field, but Ironwood is neither the leader of the conspiracy nor Qrow's employer. If anyone deserved Qrow's anger for that, it would be Ozpin, whom Qrow doesn't attack at all. Because Qrow doesn't want something from Ozpin.

    Don't fall for Qrow's act. He wants people to underestimate him, so that they're only reacting to his immediate words and actions, rather than thinking about what he's really planning.

    But what did he stand to gain, in this case?


    Why did Qrow provoke Winter?

    Set aside how Qrow did it. Set aside how much responsibility Winter bears for falling for it. I feel the only mystery behind the incident is why Qrow started it in the first place.

    It falls into the realm of supposition but I think Ironwood wanted to make Winter a full member of the conspiracy, or even propose her as the recipient of Amber's Aura and depleted Maiden powers. Qrow suspected or knew this, and he either disagreed and wanted to disqualify her, or was on the fence and wanted to see how much she could take. In the end she overreacted, showed she was loyal to just Atlas/Ironwood rather than the entire world (in Qrow's mind) and showed she could not keep calm in the face of deliberate provocation. So when the meeting in Ozpin's office needs to get serious, he excludes Winter with a firm "who invited her?"

    EDIT: Again, Adjudicator's exact words in the second paragraph. Haven't expanded upon them, yet. Still feeling out how I want to divide the ideas by article, and also rewatching "Brawl in the Family" to see what I think of Qrow's actions in light of these ideas.
     
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    Sunder the Gold said:
    Thank you.

    Now that you're staying on-topic, I can agree with you about something you said. (An example of that "common ground" I was talking about.)

    Specifically, you were right in that Qrow's behavior towards Winter becomes WORSE when you realize how deliberate the entire thing was.

    Let me repost my drafts from Spacebattles. I'm trying to turn this stuff into more articles for my Tumblr blog. Adjudicator is an SB posted who first delved into this aspect of Qrow's character, and he granted me permission to make articles out of it.


    How Qrow provoked Winter

    To get the fight he wants, Qrow hammers every button Winter Schnee has. Against Winter in 3x02 he systematically pushes every button he can think of. The Atlas military that allowed her to escape her father and give her meaning in life? Property destroyed and implication that they can't/won't protect Vale. Ironwood, who she probably views as a surrogate father (if he treated her at all the way he treats RWY) since she was at Atlas Academy? Specifically called out. Qrow pretends to be drunk to evoke her damaged relationship with her alcoholic mother. He shushes and then shoves her beloved little sister. He's deliberately pushing her to her limit, and she breaks.

    EDIT: These are Adjudicator's exact words. I could expand upon them, and would if I write an article for it, but I'm not sure it's worth an article just on their own. No offense to Adjudicator; it worked as part of the original post, but cut off by itself it's not much. The ways in which he manipulated her and hammered her buttons are rather blatant and obvious.


    Qrow even fools his allies

    Qrow would have people believe he's an emotional, impulsive drunk. It's all a lie.

    Winter didn't know it, but he didn't decide to provoke her to a fight after getting drunk; he decided to wait for her to arrive before he started drinking. Further, the angrier Winter gets, the more sober Qrow behaves. He doesn't appear inebriated in the slightest when he makes his final challenge. Did he actually get drunk in that bar, or did he merely make sure to smell like it? How much of that was an act?

    Ironwood betraying Ozpin to Vale's council certainly upset Qrow, as he reveals to Winter. But Qrow could pick a fight personally with the man himself any time, rather than targeting subordinates who had no bearing on such decisions. Moreover, such a duel could happen somewhere far more private and less likely to start an international incident or undermine the public peace that Qrow fights so hard to maintain.

    His fellow conspirators didn't know Qrow had even returned from the field until they found him fighting Winter. He didn't warn them he had arrived. So he very deliberately meant to announce his return to them by baiting Winter to disgrace herself in public. He didn't do any of this impulsively; he planned all of this.

    Qrow later complains to Ironwood about not sending him any information while he was out in the field, but Ironwood is neither the leader of the conspiracy nor Qrow's employer. If anyone deserved Qrow's anger for that, it would be Ozpin, whom Qrow doesn't attack at all. Because Qrow doesn't want something from Ozpin.

    Don't fall for Qrow's act. He wants people to underestimate him, so that they're only reacting to his immediate words and actions, rather than thinking about what he's really planning.

    But what did he stand to gain, in this case?


    Why did Qrow provoke Winter?

    Set aside how Qrow did it. Set aside how much responsibility Winter bears for falling for it. I feel the only mystery behind the incident is why Qrow started it in the first place.

    It falls into the realm of supposition but I think Ironwood wanted to make Winter a full member of the conspiracy, or even propose her as the recipient of Amber's Aura and depleted Maiden powers. Qrow suspected or knew this, and he either disagreed and wanted to disqualify her, or was on the fence and wanted to see how much she could take. In the end she overreacted, showed she was loyal to just Atlas/Ironwood rather than the entire world (in Qrow's mind) and showed she could not keep calm in the face of deliberate provocation. So when the meeting in Ozpin's office needs to get serious, he excludes Winter with a firm "who invited her?"

    EDIT: Again, Adjudicator's exact words in the second paragraph. Haven't expanded upon them, yet. Still feeling out how I want to divide the ideas by article, and also rewatching "Brawl in the Family" to see what I think of Qrow's actions in light of these ideas.
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    There's also the posiblity that Winter is already a Maiden and Qrow was testing her to see if she was actually ready. Given that the only Maidens we hear about either ran away or were killed, it'd make sense Qrow had reason to suspect she wasn't ready to be in the fight. Also Qrow did drink at the bar, he asks for a refil when Winter shows up. He's just able to handle his booze.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    There's also the posiblity that Winter is already a Maiden and Qrow was testing her to see if she was actually ready. Given that the only Maidens we hear about either ran away or were killed, it'd make sense Qrow had reason to suspect she wasn't ready to be in the fight. Also Qrow did drink at the bar, he asks for a refil when Winter shows up. He's just able to handle his booze.
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    or all those fancomics were true and qrow does not know how to handle his crush on her.

    bring out your speculation trenches.
     
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