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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • I find it funny that the breach felt anti-climactic because they failed to stop it completely but they blunted it enough that it didn't feel like a serious threat to the city.

    That and it feels like RWBY has a power escalation problem where first years are *strong*, 2nd years are almost exponentially stronger then that...and Hunters are as strong as they need to be.

    Ok, calling it a true problem is a bit of an overstatement. A quirk perhaps? Power/competence as the plot demands.
     
    Q99 said:
    Btw, in terms of 'stuff team RWBY did that mattered,' I do think the train battle counts. Yes, there was still a breach that lead to the eventual battle of Beacon. Flipside, without them there'd be 1) no Hunters on-sit to buy time for reinforcements, 2) a gaggle of Paladins publicly attacking civilians and responding hunters when they do show up, increasing the threat level and casualties considerably.
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    Let me stop you right there. Notice the phrasing you used. a generic 'Hunters'. Notably not Team RWBY. Weiss does take out one but the others are taken out because of the other students efforts, not Team RWBY. Torchwick didn't lose because of Ruby. He lost to deus ex griffon similarly the destruction of the warship that was controlling the Androids wasn't convincing because while technically Ruby kicked the gryphon into the ship, it's absolutely ridiculous because she's never shown that kind of power before or since. Again, victory due to plot, not their own efforts.

    As well as Roman, the White Fang Lieutenant, and Neo... though I expect at least Roman and Neo to split when backup starts getting too significant, those are significant fighters who'll tie up the first responding students from fighting the Grimm.

    While Glynda and Ironwood showing up with the army would still put it down eventually, RWBY+Oobleck handling a lot of the heavies before the breach even opened certainly cut down on casualties. The psychological impact of having a breach got through, but only the psychological impact.
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    Problem with your claim. Without them, Ironwood would have sent in his team. And while you may say they would alert the White Fang, that's mere speculation on your part and even if they did, at worst Roman would send the train off early anyway. And unlike canon, since there are troops everywhere they can actually get out a message via signal relay and tell Ironwood to deploy the troops and prepare for an invasion of Grimm. That is if he didn't send in a specialist like Winter who would fix everything herself.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Let me stop you right there. Notice the phrasing you used. a generic 'Hunters'. Notably not Team RWBY. Weiss does take out one but the others are taken out because of the other students efforts, not Team RWBY. Torchwick didn't lose because of Ruby. He lost to deus ex griffon similarly the destruction of the warship that was controlling the Androids wasn't convincing because while technically Ruby kicked the gryphon into the ship, it's absolutely ridiculous because she's never shown that kind of power before or since. Again, victory due to plot, not their own efforts.
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    I mean having CFVY show up wouldn't have been a bad choice if the idea was to make the story a smaller story focused more on Beacon and its students. In a lot of shows it'd be there to show them as someone to watch out for in the tournament arc. Which does seem to have been at least some of the plan given that having Coco go down to Emerald was something of a shock. However given that the show seems to have changed direction it didn't really materialize like that.

    I do have to ask though, aren't all fictional characters victories due to plot? They're not real after all. They win or lose based only on what the plot demands.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I do have to ask though, aren't all fictional characters victories due to plot? They're not real after all. They win or lose based only on what the plot demands.
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    Come on. Don't try and throw that Aha Gotcha stuff at me. You know what I mean. Obviously everything in fiction is part of the plot. What I mean is stuff like railroading. Deus ex Machina. Plot contrivances that twist the narrative, rather than a natural-seeming flow of events.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Come on. Don't try and throw that Aha Gotcha stuff at me. You know what I mean. Obviously everything in fiction is part of the plot. What I mean is stuff like railroading. Deus ex Machina. Plot contrivances that twist the narrative, rather than a natural-seeming flow of events.
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    Seven that wasn't me trying to trick you, I just didn't understand what you meant. Now are you planing on responding to the rest of my argument? Because at this point it's starting to seem like as much as you claim you want people to debate you, you really don't. You never respond to anyone other than to try and find something you feel is an attack.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Let me stop you right there. Notice the phrasing you used. a generic 'Hunters'. Notably not Team RWBY. Weiss does take out one but the others are taken out because of the other students efforts, not Team RWBY. Torchwick didn't lose because of Ruby. He lost to deus ex griffon similarly the destruction of the warship that was controlling the Androids wasn't convincing because while technically Ruby kicked the gryphon into the ship, it's absolutely ridiculous because she's never shown that kind of power before or since. Again, victory due to plot, not their own efforts.
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    This is the S2 thing, not the S3 thing. Ruby and Oobleck take out a lot of paladins and yadda yadda. Team RWBY was key in minimizing damage.

    They didn't have nearly as much effect on S3, where the badguys dominated more.

    Problem with your claim. Without them, Ironwood would have sent in his team. And while you may say they would alert the White Fang, that's mere speculation on your part and even if they did, at worst Roman would send the train off early anyway. And unlike canon, since there are troops everywhere they can actually get out a message via signal relay and tell Ironwood to deploy the troops and prepare for an invasion of Grimm. That is if he didn't send in a specialist like Winter who would fix everything herself.
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    How's that a problem? Ironwood did show up as soon as he could anyway, but without RWBY- 1) there'd be a timeframe with no responders whatsoever, even if it's only a minute or two that drastically affects the situation for the worse, making the incursion more spread out, 2) the first responders, the students, have to deal with both Paladins and Grimm rather than just Grimm and there's the PR fallout of having Paladins publicly be attacking a town.

    Sending Winter doesn't help- he came personally after all and he's just as strong- because anyone sent is a slower response time than 'already there', which Team RWBY + Oobleck was and no-one else would be until the breach actually occurred if they hadn't done so.
     
    Did RWBY manage to disable the explosives on the train or just find them?
     
    Wooo. He looks like even more of a psychopath than usual in this. Can't wait for Blake to wipe the smug look off his face again.

    Edit: .. I hope they've noticed the vanishing smoke cloud behind him when he goes for the next set of slashes. And weird lighting. Well, it is a month in advance, so there's room to work with. Neat teaser.
     
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    Violation of Rule 3: Be Civil
    VolantRedX said:
    Seven that wasn't me trying to trick you, I just didn't understand what you meant. Now are you planing on responding to the rest of my argument? Because at this point it's starting to seem like as much as you claim you want people to debate you, you really don't. You never respond to anyone other than to try and find something you feel is an attack.
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    What 'rest of your argument?' That RT might have been planning something different? There's no point in addressing it. Your defense consists on a pure hypothetical that hasn't even been implied by anyone at RT.

    Q99 said:
    This is the S2 thing, not the S3 thing. Ruby and Oobleck take out a lot of paladins and yadda yadda. Team RWBY was key in minimizing damage.

    They didn't have nearly as much effect on S3, where the badguys dominated more.



    How's that a problem? Ironwood did show up as soon as he could anyway, but without RWBY- 1) there'd be a timeframe with no responders whatsoever, even if it's only a minute or two that drastically affects the situation for the worse, making the incursion more spread out, 2) the first responders, the students, have to deal with both Paladins and Grimm rather than just Grimm and there's the PR fallout of having Paladins publicly be attacking a town.

    Sending Winter doesn't help- he came personally after all and he's just as strong- because anyone sent is a slower response time than 'already there', which Team RWBY + Oobleck was and no-one else would be until the breach actually occurred if they hadn't done so.
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    I mean 'if Ironwood sent in a team as planned instead of RWBY.' I thought that was obvious. And they still didn't stop the train.
    Psyga315 said:


    So we're told that a fight scene will happen in Volume 6's first episode.
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    Oh noes Adam took out *two* mooks what an unstoppable badass I am so afraid. Is this what RT is blowing their budget on?
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    But I apologize for getting angry at you. I thought you understood a basic literary criticism concept like 'plot contrivances' and were intentionally being obtuse but I guess I was wrong.
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    Dude. Stick to attacking the argument, not the person.

    thesevenwielder said:
    Oh noes Adam took out *two* mooks what an unstoppable badass I am so afraid. Is this what RT is blowing their budget on?
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    Yes, because clearly we will learn everything about the season from a month-early five second teaser. For all we know, they're blowing their budget elsewhere, like maybe background detail for Atlas. There's too little information to work with here to make assumptions like that.
     
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    @WhoAmEye how many mooks Adam takes out it won't impress me. I recall Weiss and Blake separately annihilating dozens of White Fang members and Atlas Knights separately in mere seconds back in the volume 3 finale.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    What 'rest of your argument?' That RT might have been planning something different? There's no point in addressing it. Your defense consists on a pure hypothetical that hasn't even been implied by anyone at RT.


    I mean 'if Ironwood sent in a team as planned instead of RWBY.' I thought that was obvious. And they still didn't stop the train.

    Oh noes Adam took out *two* mooks what an unstoppable badass I am so afraid. Is this what RT is blowing their budget on?
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    What else would they be spending money on? Like I'm not sure what you're looking for here.
     
    Q99 said:
    Oh. Still, 1) they didn't know it'd be that high priority, so likely not Winter, 2) might not have found it at all- that was Ruby and luck, 3) the team sent still included Oobleck, a pretty high-end guy, anyway.
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    Sorry if I have missed some of the discussion but to add to this:

    I don't recall Ironwood ever saying anything about a team, the way he and everyone else talked it up it sounds like a full on armed charge with his military which isn't exactly subtle as was noted. Plus Winter was in Atlas given she was escorting cargo so they'd have to call her in, might not take long but that is still time. And yeah, Oobleck, a historian familiar with the city had forgotten the underground thing so discovering it is questionable.
     
    Q99 said:
    Oh. Still, 1) they didn't know it'd be that high priority, so likely not Winter, 2) might not have found it at all- that was Ruby and luck, 3) the team sent still included Oobleck, a pretty high-end guy, anyway.
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    "CCT has just been infiltrated, the White Fang have been on a Dust-theft spree for months and we finally have a location of their base."

    'Not high priority' my ass. Pull the other one. As for sending Oobleck, he's still babysitting a bunch of first-years and while they may be outliers they are still first years. Basically none of them treated the mission seriously anyway.

    @WhoAmEye @VolantRedX it was more of a statement in general. Understand that any good fight scene needs to have meaning behind it. Even a relatively badly choreographed fight scene can be good if there is a lot of weight and meaning behind it. So I am wondering what the purpose behind this is. Apparently the reason there was only a single short this year was because they take up necessary budget for the show, but if that is the case then why Adam? It does nothing to develop his character and just portrays him as the shithead always is. Was he once noble like Blake claim? Nope, always a dick. For that matter, what did she see in him in the first place , because the only time they interact is her already criticizing his violent methods. The Adam short was a whole lot of nothing that they spent a not-insignificant portion of the budget on, which concerns me for future appearances of Adam. That is why I remarked negatively about the budget in relation to Adam killing two mooks. The season hasn't even properly started yet and they've started on a bad note.
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    @WhoAmEye @VolantRedX it was more of a statement in general. Understand that any good fight scene needs to have meaning behind it. Even a relatively badly choreographed fight scene can be good if there is a lot of weight and meaning behind it. So I am wondering what the purpose behind this is. Apparently the reason there was only a single short this year was because they take up necessary budget for the show, but if that is the case then why Adam? It does nothing to develop his character and just portrays him as the shithead always is. Was he once noble like Blake claim? Nope, always a dick. For that matter, what did she see in him in the first place , because the only time they interact is her already criticizing his violent methods. The Adam short was a whole lot of nothing that they spent a not-insignificant portion of the budget on, which concerns me for future appearances of Adam. That is why I remarked negatively about the budget in relation to Adam killing two mooks. The season hasn't even properly started yet and they've started on a bad note.
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    Alright, when you can figure out a way to put all that character development into a five second teaser a month before the actual show comes out, I might take your side. This could be forshadowing that during the show he will get the character development you're looking for. It could delve deeper into his psyche and show that he has legitimate, incredibly fucked up reasons for being the way he is, and that there's a chance of someone redeeming him (I mean, not likely, and if it does happen it'll probably be one of those 'realization in moment before being shot by someone offscreen, hold expression for two seconds, fall over dead' type things).

    Or, it could be showing off fight choreography, which if I recall correctly, was widely praised as the highlight of the show's early era, as opposed to the writing or animation quality. People apparently get hyped for fight scenes. They are, by nature, more exciting than people talking and character development.

    On the topic of adam being a shithead: yes, he may have always been that, but now we know which flavour of shithead he is. Some interesting character nuances in the way he chooses to be manipulative and such. We know from Vol 3 he's the obsessive kind. But was he narcissistic or gas-lighting? Stockholm syndrome, some kind of physical abuse? The chance of him becoming a sympathetic villain or anything of the sort is unlikely, but we do know him better now, and that's going to make the kick in his teeth climax all the more sweeter for it.

    We're also running out of organization villains. Cinder's AFK/KIA, Hazel only gives a fuck about hurting Ozpin, Salem's already counted for by Grimm, Lionheart went down, Raven's been dealt with, Sienna got stabbed by Adam... until we get to Atlas and likely face the antagonist Schneepa, Adam's the only dude left who may have mooks, depending on how many fanatics made it out of that shitshow at the Mistral Academy.

    As for budget, RT hasn't exactly been good at... consistent spending. Some of the later fights of the most recent volume differ in quality hugely, sometimes even in the same episode. You could argue that Sun/Ghira vs Fennecs and Blake vs Ilya had the same kind of importance as Cinder vs Raven, but it's pretty clear where the budget went. For all you know they could be saving up and scraping by and then dumping every last cent in making the final episode absolutely perfect; but we're not going to know until after the season's over. You can't really claim to know how much they have to spend in total, either, let alone what fraction of it was spent on what we've seen so far.
     
    Okay. What nuances to his character did we learn? Because from that short all I got was that he can fight well and Sienna used that to her advantage and did all the talking propping him up. If you found any new nuance to his character then please share it with the class, because I certainly didn't see anything. What 'new' flavor of asshole did you see that I missed?

    And I believe the claim that "I can't predict what they are going to do" is unfair because I am going off the show's previous record where they run out of budget for the last episodes or spend it on the wrong thing, like say a over the top fight between two assholes that we don't care about whatsoever.

    It's no different than looking at the DCEU's next movie and thinking it won't be good because of their previous track record. Like it or not, RWBY has a history of bad budgeting. I can predict that there will be a bunch of unnecessary cliffhangers because Miles has gone on record stating that he loves cliffhangers and the past two volumes were filled with them. I could go on, but you get the point. No I cannot see into the future. But judging by the past volumes I can predict what will happen with some accuracy.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Okay. What nuances to his character did we learn? Because from that short all I got was that he can fight well and Sienna used that to her advantage and did all the talking propping him up. If you found any new nuance to his character then please share it with the class, because I certainly didn't see anything. What 'new' flavor of asshole did you see that I missed?
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    We've learned he's a gaslighter. Something we didn't know previously. We got a second (meta) viewpoint that backed up what Blake said, showing he's been an asshole from the start rather than growing into it, escalating from self defence to accidents to justified, and that escalation was only in excuses. We've seen that he played up the wedge between her and her parents, likely leading to why Blake was so sure they wouldn't love her when she finally got back to them. We saw that he's a heavy practitioner of guilt tripping.

    All of these things we didn't learn from him stabbing Blake through the stomach because 'my love', or attacking humanity because they deserve it. There is more depth to him now. Admittedly, it's not much, but it is there.
    thesevenwielder said:
    And I believe the claim that "I can't predict what they are going to do" is unfair because I am going off the show's previous record where they run out of budget for the last episodes or spend it on the wrong thing, like say a over the top fight between two assholes that we don't care about whatsoever.
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    Imagine character development but on a company scale. It's possible something different might happen this time, such as learning from past mistakes. They've had an awful lot of time and feedback to work with, after all.

    thesevenwielder said:
    It's no different than looking at the DCEU's next movie and thinking it won't be good because of their previous track record.
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    Hate to spaghetti post, but Wonder Woman came out of nowhere and got a heck of a lot of praise. Food for thought?

    thesevenwielder said:
    Like it or not, RWBY has a history of bad budgeting. I can predict that there will be a bunch of unnecessary cliffhangers because Miles has gone on record stating that he loves cliffhangers and the past two volumes were filled with them. I could go on, but you get the point. No I cannot see into the future. But judging by the past volumes I can predict what will happen with some accuracy.
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    I agree, RWBY has had a history with less than stellar budgeting. You can still have a lot of cliffhangers and do them well, they're not mutually exclusive. But yes, we likely will see more of what the authors love.

    But I have to disagree with your predictions, because you haven't necessarily predicted anything (bar cliffhangers and bad budgeting). Only fear of future Adam appearance. So please, do share with the class the plot of Volume 6.
     
    WhoAmEye said:
    We've learned he's a gaslighter. Something we didn't know previously. We got a second (meta) viewpoint that backed up what Blake said, showing he's been an asshole from the start rather than growing into it, escalating from self defence to accidents to justified, and that escalation was only in excuses. We've seen that he played up the wedge between her and her parents, likely leading to why Blake was so sure they wouldn't love her when she finally got back to them. We saw that he's a heavy practitioner of guilt tripping.

    All of these things we didn't learn from him stabbing Blake through the stomach because 'my love', or attacking humanity because they deserve it. There is more depth to him now. Admittedly, it's not much, but it is there.

    Imagine character development but on a company scale. It's possible something different might happen this time, such as learning from past mistakes. They've had an awful lot of time and feedback to work with, after all.


    Hate to spaghetti post, but Wonder Woman came out of nowhere and got a heck of a lot of praise. Food for thought?


    I agree, RWBY has had a history with less than stellar budgeting. You can still have a lot of cliffhangers and do them well, they're not mutually exclusive. But yes, we likely will see more of what the authors love.

    But I have to disagree with your predictions, because you haven't necessarily predicted anything (bar cliffhangers and bad budgeting). Only fear of future Adam appearance. So please, do share with the class the plot of Volume 6.
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    Hoo boy. Taking it from the top.

    1. Adam gaslighting Blake is nothing new. The first time Blake talks about Adam to anyone is in volume 3, Destiny. This is literally what she says:

    Blake: "I had someone very dear to me change. It wasn't in an instant, it was gradual - little choices that began to pile up. He told me not to worry. At first they were accidents, then it was self-defense. Before long, even I began to think he was right."

    So we already knew he was a gaslighting sack of shit. Again, what new information did this reveal to us about Adam?

    2. It's certainly possible that RT could improve. But after five whole years I am skeptical. There are only so many times you can give a company 'second chances' or the benefit of the doubt. If they haven't improved that aspect of the show after five whole volumes, why are you giving them the benefit of the doubt.

    3. Wonder Woman did earn a lot of praise. Much like volume 3 of RWBY. Then Justice League came out which was mediocre at best, which made people skeptical again. My point stands.

    4. But RWBY did not do cliffhangers well. In fact ending nearly every episode on a cliffhanger was to the detriment of the show.

    5. When did I say I knew anything about the plot of volume 6? No seriously, quote me, point out to the exact place I said anything about the plot? All I said was that Adam is still a shithead and I don't think he will develop further. If I made any claims about the volume other than that, please let me know because my memory must be going.
     
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    thesevenwielder said:
    5. When did I say I knew anything about the plot of volume 6? No seriously, quote me, point out to the exact place I said anything about the plot?
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    thesevenwielder said:
    But judging by the past volumes I can predict what will happen with some accuracy.
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    thesevenwielder said:
    I can predict that there will be a bunch of unnecessary cliffhangers
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    thesevenwielder said:
    And I believe the claim that "I can't predict what they are going to do" is unfair because I am going off the show's previous record where they run out of budget for the last episodes or spend it on the wrong thing, like say a over the top fight between two assholes that we don't care about whatsoever.
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    These three bits at least give an impression that you can seemingly predict how it's going to play out.

    So for rest of the points...

    1. Okay, that's a fair point, I forgot about that line. We've also learned he's more narcissistic than previously seen, and hasn't physically abused Blake (that we can tell, at any rate).
    2. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because pleasant surprises are always nice. There's always room for improvement, and it's important to stay positive wherever you can. Who knows, they might be able to pull their own Wonder Woman (again).
    3. Vol 3 was controversial as fuck, though, so I wouldn't exactly hold it as the shining example of quality.
    4. I said it's possible. I didn't claim RWBY did them well.
     
    WhoAmEye said:
    These three bits at least give an impression that you can seemingly predict how it's going to play out.
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    What about my comment relates to the plot though? I predict RT will rush things and improperly budget and rush the ending; how does that relate to the plot at all? Those are general comments on how I think the structure of the volume will end up being.
     
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    I guess it relates to plot in the way everything but the actual details do, then. *shrug* I suppose it's an irrelevant point after all. However, it wasn't the only argument made in my post.
     
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