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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Barnaby said:
    Right now I'm at a point where I'd rather see my heroes in fiction fight the power! rather than understand the power and politely but firmly ask it to change itself.
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    What, like telling her father to go fuck himself, hijacking one of her (now technically former) family's VTOL's to head to where you know things are going down, accepting that she's effectively lost her inheritance because she won't accept that it's been tainted with her father's evil? After telling the local high society to shut their mouth-holes and do something about the crisis instead of going 'oh how sad' while drinking politely? Because at this point, Weiss IS 'FIGHT THE POWAH!' because she's not putting up with the nonsense any longer.
     
    I think also it's important to remember that like many abuse victims Weiss is trying to justify her father's actions to herself. It's not until the fall of Beacon that she seems to really see her father for the sort of person he really is. Before that it's likely that she saw the White Fang and their actions for the cause of her father's actions. When she was young it was likely a lot easier to pin blame on the stress caused by the White Fang for making her father into a spiteful and loveless man, rather than accept that he was just a loveless and spiteful man.
     
    Richardson said:
    What, like telling her father to go fuck himself, hijacking one of her (now technically former) family's VTOL's to head to where you know things are going down, accepting that she's effectively lost her inheritance because she won't accept that it's been tainted with her father's evil? After telling the local high society to shut their mouth-holes and do something about the crisis instead of going 'oh how sad' while drinking politely? Because at this point, Weiss IS 'FIGHT THE POWAH!' because she's not putting up with the nonsense any longer.
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    Yep it only took her 4 seasons for her to go 'maybe being an active part of a company that is committing 'everything but name' style slavery is wrong'. Her reaction of being annoying at high society parties and not taking money that was only hers because of an accident of birth and was earned off the back of slaves are truly powerful statements told to people in power. Weiss whole redemption arc isn't exactly that strong when you remember it is implied that the SDC has racially based bondage that is actively killing their workers every single day. It actively works against the overcoming abuse side of the story that isn't all that bad. Though that is true of anytime RWBY brings up race allegories.
     
    Tasrill said:
    Yep it only took her 4 seasons for her to go 'maybe being an active part of a company that is committing 'everything but name' style slavery is wrong'. Her reaction of being annoying at high society parties and not taking money that was only hers because of an accident of birth and was earned off the back of slaves are truly powerful statements told to people in power. Weiss whole redemption arc isn't exactly that strong when you remember it is implied that the SDC has racially based bondage that is actively killing their workers every single day. It actively works against the overcoming abuse side of the story that isn't all that bad. Though that is true of anytime RWBY brings up race allegories.
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    Yeah Weiss should have slit her father's throat in his sleep and bathed in his blood for the glorious worker's revolution. :rolleyes:

    Frankly it's pretty fucked up how quick people are to dismiss Weiss's growth or revolt against her father. Like what did people expect out of her? Should she have attacked her father? Tried to tear down the SDC? What could a 17 year old girl with no allies or resources actually be expected to do in this situation?
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Yeah Weiss should have slit her father's throat in his sleep and bathed in his blood for the glorious worker's revolution.
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    You joke but damn that sounds fun as fuck.

    Like, maybe that's too much to expect in a grounded drama, but this is a fantasy corporate princess with magic kung fu. Having her go full Dr. King Schultz would be dope.

     
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    VolantRedX said:
    Yeah Weiss should have slit her father's throat in his sleep and bathed in his blood for the glorious worker's revolution. :rolleyes:

    Frankly it's pretty fucked up how quick people are to dismiss Weiss's growth or revolt against her father. Like what did people expect out of her? Should she have attacked her father? Tried to tear down the SDC? What could a 17 year old girl with no allies or resources actually be expected to do in this situation?
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    Pretty much this. She's done just about everything she CAN do, short of teaming up with Kali and Ghira to denounce her father and what he's done to the family company. And that's purely 'never had the opportunity once she set upon the course'. That'd actually be a pretty powerful statement, the former heads of the White Fang and current rulers of Menagerie and the former heiress of the SDC making a joint statement condemning the current practices of the WF and the SDC.
     
    Barnaby said:
    Hey, don't get me wrong- Weiss is nice. She's a fun character. Flawed, but charming in her own way. I understand where she's coming from. But she's still connected and complicit to an evil system on a scale so much bigger than her. Being sad doesn't make that go away.

    I mean, not to get too spicy, but I just don't care for the fake divide in fiction where no one seems to question how violent the heroes are when they're overthrowing an "evil empire" or for "revolution", but when things are a little closer to home and the villains are logically those who benefit most from unfair societies, people in first-world countries with Internet access get uncomfortable and turn those stories into the importance of peace and not responding to violence with violence.

    I guess my feelings on this is largely coming from the bad taste Detroit: Become Human left in my mouth. The race allegory and how the game subtly tried suggesting how the heroes "should" resolve the conflict just didn't sit right with me. Like, if there's a nazi in a videogame, I'm not sure I want to understand his or her complicated and nuanced history, come to sympathize with them, and lead them towards a less genocidal path. I think I'd rather just shoot the nazi. Maybe that's not the most ethically pure choice, but from the context of a story, it's certainly the one I'd find more satisfying.

    Right now I'm at a point where I'd rather see my heroes in fiction fight the power! rather than understand the power and politely but firmly ask it to change itself.
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    There's still a difference between wanting them to fight the power and going full Sins of the Father because they're not fighting as hard as you want due to not being in a position to.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Frankly it's pretty fucked up how quick people are to dismiss Weiss's growth or revolt against her father. Like what did people expect out of her? Should she have attacked her father? Tried to tear down the SDC? What could a 17 year old girl with no allies or resources actually be expected to do in this situation?
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    This is gonna be funny if Whitley ends up killing Jacques.
     
    Mahrac said:
    Sorry, I thought you were actually being serious about how much you dislike Weiss character arc, not just having fun.
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    No and yes? I mean, I don't actually have a problem with Weiss- it's more the broader theme in media of "the only acceptable revolution by the lowerclass is a peaceful one that doesn't actually bother any of us real people". And even though the show plays with subverting that in SOME ways, I still wish they'd go way further.

    I get that it's more about a single person's relationship with their family and their own privilege, but I'm just exhausted with that particular plot, even when handled appropriately. There's so many corrupt authority figures out there in the world that can really only be dealt with through sober, deliberate and long-term peaceful resistance. I'd just like more new and contemporary stories where they can just round up and shoot the corrupt authority figures and be done with it.


    Would I cheer on Yang as she mutters "No half measures." before taking out Mercury, execution style? Yes.
    Would it be fun for me if Weiss went on a roaring rampage of revenge? Hell yeah.
    Would I enjoy watching Blake mow down some racist cops? HELL. YEAH.
    ... Actually, Ruby is pretty good about doing her best to straight up murder her bad guys.

    Good job, Ruby. I'm proud of you.

    Psyga315 said:
    This is gonna be funny if Whitley ends up killing Jacques.
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    Okay I take it back this is definitively the dumbest, best way to resolve the Schnee drama. I need this.
     
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    Barnaby said:
    No and yes? I mean, I don't actually have a problem with Weiss- it's more the broader theme in media of "the only acceptable revolution by the lowerclass is a peaceful one that doesn't actually bother any of us real people". And even though the show plays with subverting that in SOME ways, I still wish they'd go way further.

    I get that it's more about a single person's relationship with their family and their own privilege, but I'm just exhausted with that particular plot, even when handled appropriately. There's so many corrupt authority figures out there in the world that can really only be dealt with through sober, deliberate and long-term peaceful resistance. I'd just like more new and contemporary stories where they can just round up and shoot the corrupt authority figures and be done with it.
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    I'm with you on this, both in RWBY and as a broader cultural and media trend, its actually kind of a common and disturbing problem. I like Weiss and while she did technically live a lavish lifestyle cos of what her father/company does due to her age and his power I am uncomfortable holding her responsible for it as she has tried and ultimately successfully broken away from it so it's only the going forward bit that concerns me on this point but what happens there will naturally have to wait. Also this is another reason why I really like Sienna. #SiennnaIsahero
     
    Barnaby said:
    No and yes? I mean, I don't actually have a problem with Weiss- it's more the broader theme in media of "the only acceptable revolution by the lowerclass is a peaceful one that doesn't actually bother any of us real people". And even though the show plays with subverting that in SOME ways, I still wish they'd go way further.

    I get that it's more about a single person's relationship with their family and their own privilege, but I'm just exhausted with that particular plot, even when handled appropriately. There's so many corrupt authority figures out there in the world that can really only be dealt with through sober, deliberate and long-term peaceful resistance. I'd just like more new and contemporary stories where they can just round up and shoot the corrupt authority figures and be done with it.


    Would I cheer on Yang as she mutters "No half measures." before taking out Mercury, execution style? Yes.
    Would it be fun for me if Weiss went on a roaring rampage of revenge? Hell yeah.
    Would I enjoy watching Blake mow down some racist cops? HELL. YEAH.
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    Well for one thing these aren't very heroic actions period, but in the broader sense the reason most media shy away from championing violent revolution is that violent revolutions tend to not work out for anyone. At all. They tend to get a lot of innocent people killed for what is usually very little gain. Like for all the talk about the WF and race the group they most resemble is the Real IRA and well no one looks at the Troubles as a positive.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Well for one thing these aren't very heroic actions period, but in the broader sense the reason most media shy away from championing violent revolution is that violent revolutions tend to not work out for anyone. At all. They tend to get a lot of innocent people killed for what is usually very little gain. Like for all the talk about the WF and race the group they most resemble is the Real IRA and well no one looks at the Troubles as a positive.
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    While my tongue wants to coil up in rebellion at this I feel the need to note the US was founded on a successful and violent set of riots and a revolutionary war and that gets celebrated in that country every year. Granted the government replacing the old one wasn't that different than the previous one but still.

    Also by that logic the rebels from Star Wars were bad I feel.

    But beyond that the WF was noted to, under Sienna be both successful and made positive strides, which no one in the show has denied; honestly I feel like if Blake hadn't been under the control of an abusive and budding mass murderer then she probably wouldn't have left. But Adam was more interested in killing people than helping Faunus so staying went out the window.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    It's one thing to kill him in a fight. It's another to mutter about half measures and then kill him in cold blood execution style. That's fucked up by any standard.
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    I mean I guess my argument is kinda going to be two pronged here, one specific to this and one to your general frame of argumentation in this discussion.

    We'll do the latter first. I'm the last person to say that fiction influences nothing or exists in a vacuum, but this is still not real. We all know its not real. Blake or Weiss or Ruby going on a murderous rampage would be not-real people murdering other not-real people. I don't think, in this particular case, outside the entertainment value it's going to have much impact on the audience psychologically (I mean there's the glorification of violence but that ship left the harbor fucking decades ago my man). This show championing a violent uprising is going to have the societal effect of, well, Star Wars doing the exact same thing, only much smaller. So basically nil. It's just going to be an entertaining show about rebels who are willing to use violence to achieve their ends. And there's nothing wrong or immoral about having a show like that.

    Okay, now onto this specific argument. I think that in many ways it could be, but the argument and general framework Barnaby's proposing is that, in actuality, uprisings can be valid. He is arguing that the theme in most media tends to be that only peaceful resolutions that don't discomfort the comfortable are to be praised, and that we need more shows that push back against that. I'm not sure how much I agree (more philosophically than in terms of fictional content), but it's worth noting that that's the argument you should be disputing. So, like, saying that it's "fucked up by any standard" is the equivalent of gainsaying because Barnaby is making the argument that, no, sometimes it isn't fucked up by any standard. Sometimes, if it gets to be just enough, then it's justified, or at least understandable.

    Like I feel like if you want to dispute this point, a much much better approach would be to tackle it from- will the characters suffer from this, more than just in a strictly moral element? How else would they change? What about the themes? How would the themes be impacted, or the morals? Would they become incoherent or worse in some way? And so on. I think that sort of angle could lead to a robust debate. I'm really skeptical that your current approach does.
     
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    [Discussion] Chibi Season 3, Episode 15: Play With Penny
  • Threadmarks
    • My Chibi reaction:
    Where's Yang?

    Oh there's Yang!

    Giant monster and she goes for it!

    Oh no it didn't work, ah she's still a sunshine though.

    Haha, Blake you 4th wall breaking ninja, oh gosh Ruby has surpassed the 4th wall!

    Hah, Zwei's cowardice was great, as was Weiss's commentary, and hooray, Penny, I could see the joke coming but I loved it, the varied expressions, poses, all of that just make it work so well!

    Why do they have to clean up!?

    Oh gosh, poor Ruby, haha, yeah it was pretty moist Weiss, Oobleck is amazing XD

    Seriously the animation for this is great XD

    Hahahaha, richly deserved, loved the angry yelling build up, Cardin is such a petty, nasty little ass, but he makes for a great punch line XD
     
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    • VolantRedX said:
    Well for one thing these aren't very heroic actions period, but in the broader sense the reason most media shy away from championing violent revolution is that violent revolutions tend to not work out for anyone. At all. They tend to get a lot of innocent people killed for what is usually very little gain. Like for all the talk about the WF and race the group they most resemble is the Real IRA and well no one looks at the Troubles as a positive.
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    Actually it's the complete opposite. Peaceful revolutions are very rare and almost never work. People like Ghandi and MLK jr. are exceptions. Throughout history, nearly every revolution ever was violent. For better or worse, violence is what works.

    My own country owes its very existence to violent revolution, the national anthem literally has a line that says "the [light from] bombs bursting in air proved through the night that the flag was still there."

    The reason unions even came to exist in the first place was because overworked and underpaid workers had a tendency to lynch the factory owners if they mistreated their workers too much, and unions were a nonviolent way to resolve disputes.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    My own country owes its very existence to violent revolution, the national anthem literally has a line that says "the [light from] bombs bursting in air proved through the night that the flag was still there."
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    The Star Spangled Banner has nothing to do with the American Revolution. It's about the War of 1812.

    Violent revolutions almost never succeed in creating a functional government. Nearly every one in history just ended up installing an even more oppressive and brutal dictatorship. Even the French needed three tries at it to not end up with a Napoleon declaring himself Emperor.
     
    The Narrator said:
    The Star Spangled Banner has nothing to do with the American Revolution. It's about the War of 1812.

    Violent revolutions almost never succeed in creating a functional government. Nearly every one in history just ended up installing an even more oppressive and brutal dictatorship. Even the French needed three tries at it to not end up with a Napoleon declaring himself Emperor.
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    Really?
    *googles star spangled banner*
    Huh. Learn something new every day. Wonder why that song is the national anthem then. Odd.

    Still, point is the idea of a nonviolent revolution is a new one, and they frequently almost never work. Sure violent revolutions often end up with someone just as bad in charge, but nonviolent ones are even less successful.
     
    thesevenwielder said:
    Really?
    *googles star spangled banner*
    Huh. Learn something new every day. Wonder why that song is the national anthem then. Odd.

    Still, point is the idea of a nonviolent revolution is a new one, and they frequently almost never work. Sure violent revolutions often end up with someone just as bad in charge, but nonviolent ones are even less successful.
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    The Star Spangled Banner's lyrics come from a poem by Francis Scott Key sung to the tune of a British Song called "To Anacreon in Heaven". It did not become the official National Anthem until 1931. Making it the anthem seems to have been a passion project for a congressman of the times
     
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