so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.
That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.
So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.
In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
Do remember, however, that Rooster Teeth was founded on April Fools 2003, meaning it is against company policy to pull AFD jokes on the community, so anything they announce regarding RWBY today is 150% legitimate.
Do remember, however, that Rooster Teeth was founded on April Fools 2003, meaning it is against company policy to pull AFD jokes on the community, so anything they announce regarding RWBY today is 150% legitimate.
I really like the duality/mirror theme that Cinder and Raven had going in Volume 5. I've seen people say their fight didn't have any story or tactics but I couldn't disagree more. There's a lot of moments of them using their brains:
Such as Cinder using bubble barriers to protect her Grimm arm after discovering its weakness
Cinder takes advantage of the dust kicked up by the falling stalactites to land a surprise hit with the Grimm arm (which is smaller than her and blends in a lot better with the dust than she or her fire would), and she was clearly prepared to deal with direct attacks even if she didn't see Raven's more indirect approach coming.
Raven gets the upper hand at the end of the fight by using her sword to rapidly and suddenly change direction when Cinder wasn't expecting it. Also interestingly the color of her blade could indicate that she was using Gravity Dust to pull off that little trick.
And while people complained about the giant sword thing its interesting how Cinder only tries that after getting overpowered and pushed away when she tried to overwhelm Raven in melee with the whole Avatar State thing. It makes Raven's choice to simply match power with power make a lot of sense, she had every expectation of winning that clash since she had already demonstrated that her greater mastery of her magic would let her win in a contest of raw power.
I mean sure its no Jojo fight, but then again in most fights you don't really have time to think up super elaborate strategies anyway, especially not when the opponent has equal speed to yourself and can and will keep closing the distance to keep the pressure up. What I find more interesting than the tactical stuff though is the thematic aspects of the fight. Looking back I can't think of a single fight in RWBY, or hell just Volume 5 itself where the combatants have such similar fighting styles. Ilia vs Blake, Ilia vs Sun, Corsac&Fennec vs Ghira&Sun, Leo vs Oscar/Qrow, Hazel vs everyone, Vernal vs Weiss, Yang vs bandits, etc, none of them had remotely similar fighting styles as their opponents or any of the other people with fight scenes. The only exception is if you count the 5 seconds of Qrow vs Raven but a) they're twins and b) their fighting styles are pretty different when they're not doing cost saving blade locks.
So what's up with Raven and Cinder having such similar fighting styles? I think this quote sums it up best:
Raven: You turned yourself into a monster just for power. Cinder: Look who's talking…
The whole theme with Raven and Cinder is that they're (to quote Miracle of Sound) "We are opposites but we're the same", although you can make a much more convincing case for Cinder and Raven than you can for the Joker and Batman. The line about turning yourself into a monster isn't the only time where a accusation Raven makes towards Cinder gets turned back on her either:
Raven: Two children you've tricked into following you
Raven talks big but in the end was the way she used Vernal really any better than how Cinder uses Emerald and Mercury? In a way its arguably worse since Cinder at least doesn't intentionally set them up in a position where they have a high chance of getting killed. Not to mention how Raven betrayed the trust of the Spring Maiden and murdered her in cold blood.
Originally I didn't think much of that moment, I've seen those kinds of shenanigans in anime before after all so initially I just assumed the CRWBY just pulled that from a list of cool anime tropes or something. However looking back and thinking on how this entire fight is basically "Not So Different, The Battle" it quickly takes on a deeper meaning. Its yet another symbolic representation of how similar and interchangeable those two are, they literally swap weapons without having to change anything about themselves.
Another parallel I noticed:
Raven: The weak die, the strong live. Those are the rules.
The way the fight is for the most part centered around straightforward clashes of brute force and speed is very interesting when taken in light of these statements. Neither Raven nor Cinder are stupid women, they've both shown that they can be extremely clever when they want to be.
But they both also have a mindset that's very focused on power as the solution to every problem. Cinder can't convince Adam to join her? Steal power from the Fall Maiden and then use it to force him into submission. Raven can't stand against Salem's forces? Go steal a Relic and use its power to defeat anyone that gets sent after her. And of course both of them believe that having power gives them a right to take what they want from others.
Another interesting thing I noticed:
Cinder uses a mask to hide the wounds she got because she's part Grimm and disguises the fact that she's 50% Grimm and 100% monster that only cares about herself while Raven uses her mask in order to hide the tattered remains of empathy she still possesses by imitating the appearance of soulless monsters.
So what's the point of all this stuff? I think that in the future we're going to look back at this fight and see that it was a crucial part of Ravens character development. Yang tore her down with words in Haven's Fate but I think it was the confrontation with Cinder that left Raven in a state of mind where she would actually listen. Because Cinder is basically a dark mirror of Raven and fighting her forced her to look at what she herself had become and stripped away any illusion of nobler pretensions.
For all that they're in many ways opposites (fire vs ice, gloats about being a Maiden vs keeping it super secret, trying to look like a Grimm while being human vs being Grimm while trying to look human, etc) in all the ways that really count they're the same. They both use and abuse the people closest to them and discard them when they're no longer useful, they both believe in strength above all and trample all over those who are weaker than them, they both stole the power of a Maiden by killing the previous host and they both pervert that power by using it for personal gain at the expense of others when it should be used to help people.
At the end of the day Raven may have the potential for redemption, but as long as she doesn't act on that potential she is no better than Cinder. And I think she knows it and hates it, its no coincidence that Cinder was able to get so thoroughly under her skin by pointing out the evil shit Raven has done and that Raven had no moral high ground to stand on. Vernal being murdered for "her" powers likely helped with stripping away the delusions as well, since Raven would have to be blind to not notice the parallels between that and her own actions. At the very least it likely brought back some unpleasant memories.
Tl: Dr:
Basically the entire Maidenbowl fight is designed to evoke the theme of Raven and Cinder being Not So Different, and those similarities helped make Raven's flaws so obvious that even she couldn't help seeing them, which left her vulnerable to Yang's verbally tearing her down afterwards.
P.S:
Also while they both rely way to much on brute force they both have several moments of clever tactics or adapting their approach when something isn't working.
And while people complained about the giant sword thing its interesting how Cinder only tries that after getting overpowered and pushed away when she tried to overwhelm Raven in melee with the whole Avatar State thing. It makes Raven's choice to simply match power with power make a lot of sense, she had every expectation of winning that clash since she had already demonstrated that her greater mastery of her magic would let her win in a contest of raw power.
I also feel like this highlights Cinder's temper and insecurity, especially with how much she changed both after getting the power and being wrecked by silver eyes.
Namely that she is insecure and she desperately 'wants' to be strong enough to just obliterate all opposition and she doesn't take well to that desire being refuted.
Raven talks big but in the end was the way she used Vernal really any better than how Cinder uses Emerald and Mercury? In a way its arguably worse since Cinder at least doesn't intentionally set them up in a position where they have a high chance of getting killed. Not to mention how Raven betrayed the trust of the Spring Maiden and murdered her in cold blood.
Its yet another symbolic representation of how similar and interchangeable those two are, they literally swap weapons without having to change anything about themselves.
The way the fight is for the most part centered around straightforward clashes of brute force and speed is very interesting when taken in light of these statements. Neither Raven nor Cinder are stupid women, they've both shown that they can be extremely clever when they want to be.
But they both also have a mindset that's very focused on power as the solution to every problem. Cinder can't convince Adam to join her? Steal power from the Fall Maiden and then use it to force him into submission. Raven can't stand against Salem's forces? Go steal a Relic and use its power to defeat anyone that gets sent after her. And of course both of them believe that having power gives them a right to take what they want from others.
Eh, still kind of disagree with Tai's claim given (As you noted) Raven can be quite strategic and there's not really a way one 'can't' use force/strength in a fight/war.
. Because Cinder is basically a dark mirror of Raven and fighting her forced her to look at what she herself had become and stripped away any illusion of nobler pretensions.
Another detail of the fight that I liked: Cinder gains the upper hand in the fight by using the Grimm arm while Raven wins because she had help from Vernal. In other words Cinder's advantage was that she's willing to completely throw away her humanity in the pursuit of power while Raven's was that she is not. It could be foreshadowing of their paths going forward, with Cinder turning herself into even more of a monster to survive while Raven finally stops trying to deny that genuine human connections are important to her.
Eh, still kind of disagree with Tai's claim given (As you noted) Raven can be quite strategic and there's not really a way one 'can't' use force/strength in a fight/war.
She can be but she doesn't use it to its full potential. For example while she had reasons for thinking that a clash of pure power would favor her she also almost lost the fight because she chose to fight giant sword with giant sword instead of doing something tricky like just zapping Cinder with lightning while she was making the sword, or take advantage of how big and cumbersome it is to dance circles against Cinder or use her Semblance to open a portal to Vernal and then shoot Cinder in the back in a similar manner to Cinder's opening shot against Ruby.
And of course there's the way she missed the big glaring flaw in plan "get more power by killing Spring/stealing Knowledge" in that doing those things would make her more powerful but also increase the danger she would have to face to a vastly greater extent.
I thought the talk with Yang made it pretty clear myself.
Regardless of whatever excuses Raven uses for herself the fact is that she took in the Spring Maiden and developed a strong bond with her but then killed her because she saw her as being too weak.
Also notable is the excuse she didn't use, that Spring actually wanted to die or agreed that it would be better to be killed by Raven than to keep being hunted.
Again I think the reason Raven got so pissed when Cinder says this
Cinder: The last Spring Maiden must've trusted you a great deal before she died. I bet that was a mistake…
is because it's pretty much spot on and Raven does not like having that pointed out to her.
Which also parallels neatly with how she immediately abandoned the conversation with Leo when he hit another nail on the head by pointing out that her justifications for doing terrible things are more for herself than for him.
I also feel like this highlights Cinder's temper and insecurity, especially with how much she changed both after getting the power and being wrecked by silver eyes.
Namely that she is insecure and she desperately 'wants' to be strong enough to just obliterate all opposition and she doesn't take well to that desire being refuted.
Another detail of the fight that I liked: Cinder gains the upper hand in the fight by using the Grimm arm while Raven wins because she had help from Vernal. In other words Cinder's advantage was that she's willing to completely throw away her humanity in the pursuit of power while Raven's was that she is not. It could be foreshadowing of their paths going forward, with Cinder turning herself into even more of a monster to survive while Raven finally stops trying to deny that genuine human connections are important to her.
She can be but she doesn't use it to its full potential. For example while she had reasons for thinking that a clash of pure power would favor her she also almost lost the fight because she chose to fight giant sword with giant sword instead of doing something tricky like just zapping Cinder with lightning while she was making the sword, or take advantage of how big and cumbersome it is to dance circles against Cinder or use her Semblance to open a portal to Vernal and then shoot Cinder in the back in a similar manner to Cinder's opening shot against Ruby.
And of course there's the way she missed the big glaring flaw in plan "get more power by killing Spring/stealing Knowledge" in that doing those things would make her more powerful but also increase the danger she would have to face to a vastly greater extent.
As I have said I disagree with Tai's assessment and as to these alternatives, I think its important to remember what makes sense is not necessarily what occurs to a person in a combat situation, nor what makes for an interesting or dramatic fight, otherwise Frieza would have been blinded and had his head chopped of by the Kienzan for example.
I thought the talk with Yang made it pretty clear myself. However Raven choses to excuse herself the fact is that she took in the Spring Maiden and developed a strong bond with her but then killed her because she saw her as being too weak.
Also notable is the excuse she didn't use, that Spring actually wanted to die or agreed that it would be better to be killed by Raven than to keep being hunted.
Again I think the reason Raven got so pissed when Cinder says this
is because it's pretty much spot on and Raven does not like having that pointed out to her. Which also paralell neatly with how she immediately abandoned the conversation with Leo when he hit another nail on the head by pointing out that her justifications for doing terrible things are more for herself than for him.
I figured she may have killed her in a training exercise by accident or a fit of pique given Raven very much didn't want the powers, I find her killing Spring for them unlikely.
As I have said I disagree with Tai's assessment and as to these alternatives, I think its important to remember what makes sense is not necessarily what occurs to a person in a combat situation, nor what makes for an interesting or dramatic fight, otherwise Frieza would have been blinded and had his head chopped of by the Kienzan for example.
Eh, think you're a bit too rooted in your "Tai was wrong" viewpoint and end up missing stuff as a result. For rapid fire clashes like Cinder and Raven were doing most of the fight it makes sense that she wouldn't have time to think up a plan. But when Cinder took a step back to build a giant sword Raven had the perfect chance to take a second to think up a clever way around the problem, especially since oversized swords are hugely impractical and leave plenty of openings and even more especially because Cinder seemed to be putting everything into offense while forgetting about defense.
The Frieza comparison doesn't feel valid because the reason why Krillin doesn't do that is clearly because the author doesn't want him to take away the spotlight from Goku while with Raven not taking the optimal decision there's a clearly stated in-universe reason in her being to reliant on brute force and having a tendency to miss obvious workarounds. Sure it also needed to happen that way so that we could get a big dramatic fight but I feel like it's pretty clearly contrasted with Yang bypassing a big dramatic fight entirely by simply detaching her arm.
It feels like the writers set up that contrast deliberately and it seems like a sign that Raven could have won with a lot less trouble if she had been less reliant on overpowering the enemy head on.
And of course there's the way she went for the Relic instead of simply doing this:
I figured she may have killed her in a training exercise by accident or a fit of pique given Raven very much didn't want the powers, I find her killing Spring for them unlikely.
Considering that it did not occur to Raven that stealing the Relic of Knowledge would just paint a even bigger target on her back it could well be that she only realized how bad an idea it was to take Spring's power after the fact. Raven seems to have a tendency to stockpile power that she really would be better of not having, she doesn't want responsibility but she does want power and she seems blind to just how vulnerable that power makes her. Heck just taking in the Spring Maiden at all instead of opening a portal to Qrow and shoving Spring through it was already putting her tribe in danger so it's not that strange that she took it a step further by taking the power for herself when she deemed the previous Spring Maiden unworthy, which is another interesting parallel to Cinder when I think about it.
Raven: She was scared when we found her! Weak. No matter how much training I put her through, she never learned! She wasn't cut out for this world!
In any case the writers made it very clear that it was no accident. Whatever the reason was it's made no secret that Raven betrayed Spring's trust and murdered her in cold blood.
Eh, think you're a bit to rooted in your "Tai was wrong" viewpoint and end up missing stuff as a result. For rapid fire clashes like Cinder and Raven were doing most of the fight it makes sense that she wouldn't have time to think up a plan. But when Cinder took a step back to build a giant sword Raven had the perfect chance to take a second to think up a clever way around the problem, especially since oversized swords are hugely impractical and leave plenty of openings and even more especially because Cinder seemed to be putting everything into offense while forgetting about defense.
The Frieza comparison doesn't feel valid because the reason why Krillin doesn't do that is clearly because the author doesn't want him to take away the spotlight from Goku while with Raven not taking the optimal decision there's a clearly stated in-universe reason in her being to reliant on brute force and having a tendency to miss obvious workarounds. Sure it also needed to happen that way so that we could get a big dramatic fight but I feel like it's pretty clearly contrasted with Yang bypassing a big dramatic fight entirely by simply detaching her arm.
It feels like the writers set up that contrast deliberately and it seems like a sign that Raven could have won with a lot less trouble if she had been less reliant on overpowering the enemy head on.
I could say the same about you and assuming Tai is correct. (Not trying to be contentious, just noting it, I really don't want to start that discussion again.)
Sure, but we could also argue Cinder, who was shown to be a schemer, not being able to come up with anything better than "Big sword" is an OOC writing decision. Plus I always assumed they happened at more or less the same time and it was just the staging of the tv show that made it look that way.
To pull on DBZ again, Goku could/should have wasted Frieza straight away, or just stayed in the time chamber the full time ETC to train Gohan or himself, but that wouldn't be fun to watch.
And of course there's the way she went for the Relic instead of simply doing this:
and then going into hiding while letting Qrow and Co hold Salem's attention by possessing the Relic.
Why would she trust a bunch of kids and her brother to take out a Maiden and her minions when she is terrified of engaging Salem or her servants and wanted to literally back stab Cinder rather than fight her directly?
After the first shot goes through Cinder and Co could just retreat and fly there while Adam keeps them busy with Hazel or blows up the academy and then Raven is out a relic, now has a really ticked of Salem and possibly Maiden on her tail and is still being pursued by Ozpin and co.
Considering that it did not occur to Raven that stealing the Relic of Knowledge would just paint a even bigger target on her back it could well be that she only realized how bad an idea it was to take Spring's power after the fact. Raven seems to have a tendency to stockpile power that she really would be better of not having, she doesn't want responsibility but she does want power and she seems blind to just how vulnerable that power makes her. Heck just taking in the Spring Maiden at all instead of opening a portal to Qrow and shoving Spring through it was already putting her tribe in danger so it's not that strange that she took it a step further by taking the power for herself when she deemed the previous Spring Maiden unworthy, which is another interesting parallel to Cinder when I think about it.
In any case the writers made it very clear that it was no accident. Whatever the reason was it's made no secret that Raven betrayed Spring's trust and murdered her in cold blood.
I'm pretty sure it did given she didn't sneak in and steal it year ago and only did so because she was backed into a corner. Plus given her lines it seems like she took Spring in out some kernal of empathy rather than for self serving reasons and so would not send her back to the life she herself fled as an agent of Ozpin.
That seemed more like haphazard self justification to me, but that's just my take.
Sure, but we could also argue Cinder, who was shown to be a schemer, not being able to come up with anything better than "Big sword" is an OOC writing decision.
Not really. They made a point of showing that Cinder has very much adopted a "I'm strong so I don't need to be subtle" mindset all the way back in Dread in the Air.
To pull on DBZ again, Goku could/should have wasted Frieza straight away, or just stayed in the time chamber the full time ETC to train Gohan or himself, but that wouldn't be fun to watch.
Because Dragon Ball Z is kind of dumb or possibly to show that the Z fighters all have battle lust and pride as fatal flaws. I mean Bulma straight up suggests killing Dr Gero before he can make his androids but everyone refuses and just sit around doing martial arts exercises for 3 years because they want to fight more than they want to win.
Edit:
Plus again there's the contrast with how Yang resolves her "fight" with Mercury immediately beforehand. DBZ doesn't have that stuff or at the very least it never let's it work.
Why would she trust a bunch of kids and her brother to take out a Maiden and her minions when she is terrified of engaging Salem or her servants and wanted to literally back stab Cinder rather than fight her directly?
After the first shot goes through Cinder and Co could just retreat and fly there while Adam keeps them busy with Hazel or blows up the academy and then Raven is out a relic, now has a really ticked of Salem and possibly Maiden on her tail and is still being pursued by Ozpin and co.
You are taking a silly screencap far too literally. The point is that it would be far easier and safer to cooperate with Qrow and co than it was to try to doublecross Cinder on her own. If she had talked with Qrow they could have set up their own ambush and led Cinder and her group right into a trap. The fight at Haven would have looked very different if Raven and Vernal suddenly turned on Salem's group. Heck knowing that Leo was a traitor they could have done the same thing Blake did and just called the police and brought in Huntsmen that weren't on Qrow's list.
Hell they could skip the battle at Haven entirely and come down on Cinder's group while they were staying in the forest. Watts, Cinder, Emerald and Mercury vs Qrow, Raven, Ozpin, Ruby, Weiss, Yang, Vernal, Ren, Nora, Jaune and possibly other Huntsmen? Qoth the Raven "it would be over in a heartbeat". After that it's just a matter of cleaning up Leo and the White Fang force.
And after the fight is over she can go down to the vault and open it at which point she's free to leave because Ozpin and Salem has no more use for her and Ozpin lacks the means to stop her anyway (and respects her right to chose).
I'm pretty sure it did given she didn't sneak in and steal it year ago and only did so because she was backed into a corner. Plus given her lines it seems like she took Spring in out some kernal of empathy rather than for self serving reasons and so would not send her back to the life she herself fled as an agent of Ozpin.
That seemed more like haphazard self justification to me, but that's just my take
Its still telling that when backed into a corner she decided to betray her family and seek out power when it would have been much easier to work with them and let them keep the bullseye painted McGuffin.
Never denied that she took Spring in for emphatic reasons but that's the thing with Raven that puts her on the same level as Cinder, the fact that she doesn't let her empathy get in the way of her self-serving cowardice.
She clearly loves Yang but she's unwilling to offer any support and even set up an ambush where Yang had a large chance of getting killed. If not for Jaune's Semblance kicking in at such an opportune moment and Blake showing up as backup the entire gang might have been captured or killed. That group included her daughter, her brother and her daughter's half-sister and their friends.
Raven clearly cared for Vernal, hell she's shown more open affection towards her than she has towards Summer, Taiyang, Qrow and Yang combined. Yet she still uses her as a decoy that was meant to and did draw lethal attacks away from herself. Using Vernal as a decoy may have been clever but was also deeply messed up and directly contributed towards Vernal's death.
So while Raven may have had sympathetic motives for taking the Spring Maiden in and seemed to have forged a genuine connection with her it's also entirely in-character for Raven to murder her despite that. Raven may have had a strong bond with Spring but that didn't stop her from killing her for being "weak" (her words, not mine).
Not really. They made a point of showing that Cinder has very much adopted a "I'm strong so I don't need to be subtle" mindset all the way back in Dread in the Air.
Because Dragon Ball Z is kind of dumb or possibly to show that the Z fighters all have battle lust and pride as fatal flaws. I mean Bulma straight up suggests killing Dr Gero before he can make his androids but everyone refuses and just sit around doing martial arts exercises for 3 years because they want to fight more than they want to win.
You are taking a silly screencap far too literally. The point is that it would be far easier and safer to cooperate with Qrow and co than it was to try to doublecross Cinder on her own. If she had talked with Qrow they could have set up their own ambush and led Cinder and her group right into a trap. The fight at Haven would have looked very different if Raven and Vernal suddenly turned on Salem's group. Heck knowing that Leo was a traitor they could have done the same thing Blake did and just called the police and brought in Huntsmen that weren't on Qrow's list.
Hell they could skip the battle at Haven entirely and come down on Cinder's group while they were staying in the forest. Watts, Cinder, Emerald and Mercury vs Qrow, Raven, Ozpin, Ruby, Weiss, Yang, Vernal, Ren, Nora, Jaune and possibly other Huntsmen? Qoth the Raven "it would be over in a heartbeat". After that it's just a matter of cleaning up Leo and the White Fang force.
And after the fight is over she can go down to the vault and open it at which point she's free to leave because Ozpin and Salem has no more use for her and Ozpin lacks the means to stop her anyway (and respects her right to chose).
Its still telling that when backed into a corner she decided to betray her family and seek out power when it would have been much easier to work with them and let them keep the bullseye painted McGuffin.
Never denied that she took Spring in for emphatic reasons but that's the thing with Raven that puts her on the same level as Cinder, the fact that she doesn't let her empathy get in the way of her self-serving cowardice.
Raven seems to have a tendency to stockpile power that she really would be better of not having, she doesn't want responsibility but she does want power and she seems blind to just how vulnerable that power makes her. Heck just taking in the Spring Maiden at all instead of opening a portal to Qrow and shoving Spring through it was already putting her tribe in danger so it's not that strange that she took it a step further by taking the power for herself when she deemed the previous Spring Maiden unworthy, which is another interesting parallel to Cinder when I think about it.
She clearly loves Yang but she's unwilling to offer any support and even set up an ambush where Yang had a large chance of getting killed. If not for Jaune's Semblance kicking in at such an opportune moment and Blake showing up as backup the entire gang might have been captured or killed. That group included her daughter, her brother and her daughter's half-sister and friends.
Raven clearly cared for Vernal, hell she's shown more open affection towards her than she has towards Summer, Taiyang, Qrow and Yang combined. Yet she still uses her as a decoy that was meant to and did draw lethal attacks away from herself. Using Vernal as a decoy may have been clever but was also deeply messed up and directly contributed towards Vernal's death.
So while Raven may have had sympathetic motives for taking the Spring Maiden in and she seems to have forged a genuine connection with her. But that didn't stop her from killing her for being "weak" and it's entirely in line with what we know of her character.
I have never said that any of them are dumb. Please stop putting words into my mouth. I even went into this pointing out that there are a lot of moments of them using intelligent tactics that people miss and have pointed out several times that they are not stupid. I'm just pointing out that both have a tendency to value raw strength/power higher than other traits and that they have a flaw where they tend to seek more power as the best solution to not having enough power to deal with their problems directly.
Being flawed doesn't make someone stupid or dumb, it just makes them flawed. I don't think Ozpin is stupid because he has a tendency to play things too close to the chest and keep things secret even when there's no reason to not share them with his allies, I just think it makes him flawed. Qrow isn't stupid just because he's needlessly antagonistic towards people, he's just flawed. Not always making the best decisions because of your flaws is not a sign of stupidity, it just means you have mental blind spots that causes you to fail to realize that those solutions were there.
Personally I felt it was more than adequately conveyed that Raven is kind of a shit person at the moment but I'm not going to bother arguing more about that. We will just have to wait and see if future volumes explain her motivations for doing what she did.
One interesting thing I noticed though. In Taiyang's lecture the idea of using your head in a fight is represented by contests of strength being depicted as "a strange game, the winning move is to not play at all" and instead trip up your enemy from below while their attention is on winning the contest of strength above.
I find it very interesting and telling that Yang taking her father's lesson to heart and evolving to become a better fighter is represented by her making use of a tactic straight out of The Invincible Girl's playbook. Pyrrha was pretty much portrayed as the perfect warrior from day one and she loved using misdirection, oblique angles of approach and finding ways around the enemy' attacks while hitting them in the way they least expected.
Edit:
And really it would have been hilarious if Raven approached combat more like Pyrrha and resolved the giant blade lock by just going low and tripping Cinder with a low kick.
That isn't what I was trying to communicate, I was saying that the "Maybe the characters from your example are just dumb" is an argument that can be applied to any character not acting optimally as you described Raven doing so in your hypothesis.
Anyway as I said I don't want to get into another Yang VS Tai debate with you, generally I enjoy talking to you, save when this subject comes up and past experience shows neither of us will budge so I won't be addressing the rest of this post, sorry.
That isn't what I was trying to communicate, I was saying that the "Maybe the characters from your example are just dumb" is an argument that can be applied to any character not acting optimally as you described Raven doing so in your hypothesis.
And if your point was that you can just say "what if they were just dumb?" then you're basically pointing out that its a silly argument that doesn't hold any merit. And I would add especially not when its directly contradicted (by both of them showing that they're intelligent multiple times) and the plainly states an alternative explanation. And by that second point I don't mean that the show can be interpreted differently I mean that the show flat out tells us how its meant to be interpreted in addition to all the scenes that can be interpreted in that way either directly (their actions) or indirectly (thematic elements, symbolism, comparisons to other characters, etc).
I agree that we should probably stop at this point though. Sorry for continuing the debate while saying that but I just wanted to point out that whatever point you were trying to make there isn't coming clearly across.
That's really not what it sounded like when you phrase it like this:
And if your point was that you can just say "what if they were just dumb?" then you're basically pointing out that its a silly argument that doesn't hold any merit. And I would add especially not when its directly contradicted (by both of them showing that they're intelligent multiple times) and the plainly states an alternative explanation.
This was in reference to the Dragon Ball points, not the RWBY stuff, I was just saying I don't think "Maybe X characters were just dumb" is a good counter argument because it can be applied to anyone/thing.
And by that second point I don't mean that the show can be interpreted differently I mean that the show flat out tells us how its meant to be interpreted in addition to all the scenes that can be interpreted in that way either directly (their actions) or indirectly (thematic elements, symbolism, comparisons to other characters, etc).
I agree that we should probably stop at this point though. Sorry for continuing the debate while saying that but I just wanted to point out that whatever point you were trying to make there isn't coming clearly across.
This was in reference to the Dragon Ball points, not the RWBY stuff, I was just saying I don't think "Maybe X characters were just dumb" is a good counter argument because it can be applied to anyone/thing.
Technically I said the show was dumb, not the characters.
And to be fair I did point a alternate hypothesis that seems fairly supported by canon (that they let the desire for a good fight override good sense/practical solutions).
I mean that in addition to scenes that can support certain interpretations of the characters the show also just flat out tells us how to interpret them such as Cinder expressing a belief that there's no need for complicated planning if you're strong enough to take what you want or Taiyang talking about how Raven had a tendency to believe in the supremacy of strength and going through problems instead of around them, as well as Raven herself expressing a "rule of the strong" viewpoint and using it to justify killing Spring and being a bandit.
Technically I said the show was dumb, not the characters.
And to be fair I did point a alternate hypothesis that seems fairly supported by canon (that they let the desire for a good fight override good sense/practical solutions).
That is true, and in one or two characters cases was part of their motive, though as I said, that doesn't excuse the Krillen thing, especially as it doesn't have to 'work' to be tried if that makes sense.
I mean that in addition to scenes that can support certain interpretations of the characters the show also just flat out tells us how to interpret them such as Cinder expressing a belief that there's no need for complicated planning if you're strong enough to take what you want or Taiyang talking about how Raven had a tendency to believe in the supremacy of strength and going through problems instead of around them, as well as Raven herself expressing a "rule of the strong" viewpoint and using it to justify killing Spring and being a bandit.
Sure, but then we get into an issue of unreliable narrators which is why I don't just take Tai at face value as being right or Ozpin and Qrow when they claim to be on the side of justice, or Raven and Leo when they claim Salem can't be beaten ETC.
Aaaaannnyyyway, in order to actually halt this discussion I propose a change of topic. My suggestion for a new topic is "who should replace Ruby on the now defunct Team RNJR?"
With the way Emerald was played up as a dark mirror of Ruby and a potential successor to Cinder it seems unlikely that she's going to switch sides anytime soon, if ever. Any redemption arc on that front will likely be saved for the endgame or close to it. So Emerald is out.
A somewhat more likely replacement is Oscar. He is already with the group so just officially slot him in on the team and call it JNPR again and you're done. However I'm not to keen on going that direction. As the new Ozpin it's way to easy for him to completely overshadow the rest of the team. He's only been training for 2 months and he's already stronger than most of the team when Ozpin is in the pilot seat and no slouch when he isn't. Add to that the thousands of years of experience and aside from Jaune being stuck on Support duty it's hard to see how the rest of the team is going to meaningfully contribute when he starts fully assimilating Ozpin. Maybe the collapse in Haven's Fate is meant to signify that Ozpin won't be able to help anymore then it might not be a problem. Still, I would rather not see JNPR end up like Angel Summoner & BMX Bandit (one summons angels, the other rides a BMX! ♪). I think I would prefer it if he was more of a ally and overall leader who isn't really a member of the teams and who gets shuffled out of the way by the plot so that the kids can have their own victories.
Third option: They're going to Atlas. Now might be a good time to reintroduce Penny again, or a P.E.N.N.Y if it wasn't possible to repair/restore her properly. On the plus side more time for Nuts&Dolts in the main show, again the team can just go back to being JNPR and we get a cool robot character hanging around on a semi-permanent basis. On the minus side it might be a bit disrespectful towards Pyrrha to just go back to being JNPR without her, putting her on their team also means less focus on her team (and I really want to see Ciel in action) and it might be more interesting to examine free will and military institutions and such by forcing Penny into a antagonist role due to Ironwood having a falling out with Ozpin and her being programed to follow orders. Plus there's also the fact the team is in Mistral at the moment while Penny is not. Though they could have a temporary replacement I suppose, then again it would be a bit awkward if they had such a revolving door roster. On the third foot that could be used as a sign of how broken they still are by Pyrrha's absence and getting a permanent replacement could be a sign that they have truly healed.
The final option is the one I'm currently leaning towards the most. No prize for guessing, it's Ilia. There are a lot of things i like about putting her on their team. For one thing no "who needs Pyrrha?" issue. The team could call themselves JNIR (junior) instead, a nice callback to the name discussion in Volume 4. Oscar is super important due to being the new Ozpin and P.E.N.N.Y as a concept can become very relevant in the Atlas arc. But for Ilia as a character becoming a permanent member of the cast would be a good way to justify the amount of screentime spent on her and to tie the Menagerie arc together with the main arc. With all the time spent on the Faunus equality subplot it would be nice to get another Faunus on the team that can provide different perspectives on it. And for the Atlas arc it also gives the perspective of someone from the lower classes. After the Atlas arc it could also be interesting to see her react to staying in Vacuo where Faunus are actually treated like equals. Plus she's a cool and interesting character that would be nice to see developed and hey the main cast also won't be lily white anymore, bonus (it occurs to me that Ilia being so barely brown that it's difficult to tell that she isn't white is another way the "can pass as human" metaphor works, in addition to the whole gay thing). And her abilities are cool as hell, she definitely won the Faunus animal trait lottery with her awesome pseudo invisibility and her weapon is really cool. Lightning whips on their own are awesome enough but then it's also a sword (that can taze people) and a spear and a gun. She's a master of close, medium and long range with that thing. And she's canonically skilled with bombs, which could have some cool applications (fondly remembers a certain Tex fight scene in RvB). And we haven't even seen her Semblance yet which we likely never will unless she joins the cast on a permanent basis.
There's the implication that Ozpin is only inside Oscar for a while before he resides into his consciousness, much like how Nail and Kami were for Piccolo.
Penny is also a good idea, but that depends on if RT will allow reviving the dead. They've really been stingy on that and while Ozpin has "come back", it's not the same as outright coming back from the dead.
Ilia and Emerald are the two I do not see joining JN_R. Emerald is an obvious reason, currently working for the bad guys and is one of the people responsible for Pyrrha's death (and the major cause of her murder of Penny), and we've seen Jaune isn't quite as forgiving as RWBY. It'll take some convincing to get her to join them.
Ilia, on the other hand, while I like your reasonings, is someone I don't see joining JN_R because I fear that she'll be dropped off into the background and be forgotten now that her primary purpose and character arc is fulfilled. In fact, it would be more easier for them to just handwave that she stayed in Mistral to help explain the White Fang situation (because, well, the White Fang + villains caused quite a commotion that, without proper explanation, can lead to a panic the size of Beacon's fall).
Plus, her storyline is so tied down to Blake that her joining JN_R would require some focus as to why she would decide to join them. Yes, it'd be nice for her to get some focus on the lower cast of Mantle and gain perspective on it, but why would she do it spending time with JN_R? The only way I can see it happen is if the Ozluminati needs to split up and Ilia volunteers to go with JN_R to help them with navigating Atlas since she's lived there, and from there, she creates a bond with JN_R that, at the end of the Volume, helps her decide "You know, I'm gonna join you guys!"
Don't get me wrong, the more I think about Ilia being part of JN_R, the more I can see it happening, but I worry that it may not happen for "practical reasons".
"Who's going to fill the empty spot on JNPR?" is essentially asking "who's going to be Jaune's partner?" since he's the person without one. Otherwise the distinctions between the two teams are a bit nebulous when they're all sticking together anyway.
Could be Oscar, to put both the screentime hogs in one place. They're also the two with the least experience.
Could be Sun because he and Jaune are both voiced by RT crew members. (Because as much as I might wish that Sun wasn't coming with them, he probably is for exactly that reason.)
I'd like it if Ilyia stuck around, but I'm not sure she will. Saddling her with Jaune as a partner just seems cruel, tho.
Qrow prefers to work alone.
It now occurs to me that if it's Oscar then it would be Team ORNJ, or Orange. So I'm guessing that's what they'll go with.
Ilia makes it INJR, Team Injury, which is perfectly suited for having Jaune along, since he's the healer.
My personal bet is that Ilia joins the cast as Yang's replacement-Blake. Blake stays paired up with Sun. Yang and Ilia both have abandonment issues stemming from Blake leaving them, so they get together and be bitter as a team, until the various shippers surrender.
I really don't get this. He can come back for the Vacuo arc sure but there's no reason for him to be present in the Atlas arc. They've already pointed out in the show that he has his own team that he should get back with and pretty much his only motivation for going with Blake was that he didn't think she should go up against the White Fang alone. They even made a big deal about him and Blake splitting when she went back to fight alongside her team and had him encourage her to go talk to them. He has no reason to stick around once he's sure that Blake is back ok and back with her friends. And Mistral really needs all the Huntsmen it can get after the culling that Salem did (plus the Dust embargo and the Grimm attacks and the headmaster dying, etc).
