RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[ColdGoldLazarus]

I don't get where this idea that Jaune is a Mary Sue insert for Miles comes from. Jaune is barely relevant beyond basically giving Ruby some guilt over Pyrrha and has yet to do anything of note beyond healing Weiss.

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The Jaune Miles stuff dates way back. to Volume 1. Idunno how accurate it is to reality, but it is plausible IMO. But yeah, you're right in that he's been thankfully fairly low-key for the past two volumes.

Also this person put in a lot of energy to lampoon a show they seem to hold nothing but contempt for. Good to see RWBY has hit the "only here to bitch" level of fandom. Most shows can only dream to have that level of interest.

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Yeah, most of those skits are pretty forced, especially the Raven one. The Blake one... I can see it, but still feels like a bit of a stretch.

 

[VolantRedX]

The Jaune Miles stuff dates way back. to Volume 1. Idunno how accurate it is to reality, but it is plausible IMO. But yeah, you're right in that he's been thankfully fairly low-key for the past two volumes.

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I feel like people overstate Jaune's issues in Volume 1 and 2. His little bullying arc basically exists to fill out run time. Without it Volume 1 would be much shorter and feel like there was no breathing room. Sure it was trite, but once it's over he basically disappears in the background so the focus can be much more on Blake and her issues. Honestly if any character hogs the spot light it's her given she's had the most story independent of the group.

Yeah, most of those skits are pretty forced, especially the Raven one. The Blake one... I can see it, but still feels like a bit of a stretch.

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The problem I have with it is that it seems to ignore like a bunch of vary obvious tells that 1) Eclipse is clearly end game, 2) Blake and Illia are not having any sort of ship tease and 3) there are a bunch of assumptions about how Adam and Yang are going to be handled with no basis in the story. Hell the show basically said outright that Ruby and Weiss are going to forgive Blake but Yang won't.

 

[UbeOne]

The bullying arc was part of Jaune's character development, I would think.

 

[ColdGoldLazarus]

I feel like people overstate Jaune's issues in Volume 1 and 2.

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Jaune's issues in the show overall are overstated, but he was definitely a blight on the first two volumes.

His little bullying arc basically exists to fill out run time. Without it Volume 1 would be much shorter and feel like there was no breathing room.

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Or that runtime could have been used to improve on the messy and inconsistent worldbuilding, develop the actual title characters better, ect. I like RWBY, but I'm not going to pretend Volume 1 was anywhere close to good.

Sure it was trite, but once it's over he basically disappears in the background so the focus can be much more on Blake and her issues. Honestly if any character hogs the spot light it's her given she's had the most story independent of the group.

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I guess? But she's actually one of the main characters, and was one of the more underdeveloped ones until V4, so I'll take it.

Eclipse is clearly end game

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Is it? I mean, I'm pretty sure that's where we're going because it's the only non-Adam straight pairing, but otherwise...

Blake and Illia are not having any sort of ship tease

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Except for the part where Illia all but outright stated she had feelings for Blake and it hasn't come up or been put to bed since then, so I can only assume they'll either fail to acknowledge it ever again, or occasionally tease at it to string people along.

there are a bunch of assumptions about how Adam and Yang are going to be handled with no basis in the story. Hell the show basically said outright that Ruby and Weiss are going to forgive Blake but Yang won't.

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Did you see the part where Yang shrugs and basically goes "okay yeah why not" on the matter of forgiving Blake? And the group hug? Sure, she hesitated, but by the end it looked an awful lot like she's let go of the grudge pretty easily.

Don't get me wrong, I like Volume 5 and consider it the best installment yet. But it still has areas to improve in, and I think it's important to be honest about that.

 

[VolantRedX]

Except for the part where Illia all but outright stated she had feelings for Blake and it hasn't come up or been put to bed since then, so I can only assume they'll either fail to acknowledge it ever again, or occasionally tease at it to string people along.

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I'm putting money on "never bring it up again." If she stays a staple of the show maybe she'll get teased with some other minor side character, but I'm expecting her and Blake's parents to head home while the team heads to Atlas.

Did you see the part where Yang shrugs and basically goes "okay yeah why not" on the matter of forgiving Blake? And the group hug? Sure, she hesitated, but by the end it looked an awful lot like she's let go of the grudge pretty easily.

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Because everyone knows you can't hug someone and be mad at them at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I like Volume 5 and consider it the best installment yet. But it still has areas to improve in, and I think it's important to be honest about that.

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Sure. My hope is that now that the team is together we won't have another season where they try and pull a GOT style jumping narrative that ends up killing a lot of the pacing. The show worked best with a single core plot running throughout rather than three or four all meeting in the end.

 

[ColdGoldLazarus]

I'm putting money on "never bring it up again."

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Most likely, yeah.

Because everyone knows you can't hug someone and be mad at them at the same time.

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Alright, you have a good point there. For what it's worth, I do hope I'm wrong and this will be discussed in V6

Sure. My hope is that now that the team is together we won't have another season where they try and pull a GOT style jumping narrative that ends up killing a lot of the pacing. The show worked best with a single core plot running throughout rather than three or four all meeting in the end.

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I think the time spent split up was important for them, but yeah, it's nice to have them all together again; hoping it stays that way for the time being.

 

[VolantRedX]

I think the time spent split up was important for them, but yeah, it's nice to have them all together again; hoping it stays that way for the time being.

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I support the story reasons for it, but show's runtime means that a lot of the plots seemed to crawl along at a snail's pace.

 

[Zam]

I feel like people overstate Jaune's issues in Volume 1 and 2. His little bullying arc basically exists to fill out run time. Without it Volume 1 would be much shorter and feel like there was no breathing room. Sure it was trite, but once it's over he basically disappears in the background so the focus can be much more on Blake and her issues. Honestly if any character hogs the spot light it's her given she's had the most story independent of the group.

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A lot of people are frustrated that several episodes were dedicated to Jaune that could have been given to Yang, who was the only title character with no real focus in V1, especially when said arc was fairly cliche, boring and also had some rather flawed messaging, in that:

Jaune blatantly ignores Glynda's earlier instruction to fight defensively when his Aura is low, continuing to pig heatedly rush a much stronger foe and then he is saved from it by Pyrrha, who lets him continue to think 'he' got that win all on his own to protect his ego, along with the fact Jaune risking his life, potentially his teams with his lack of training, ignorance and unwillingess to accept help due to his ego was never really called out or fully addressed.

Then it just sort of continues in that being for the next volume, but him constantly asking Weiss out and upsetting/annoying her with his inability to grasp that she said no, was added, then in V4, he was the only one who got much focus in terms of grief or dealing with the loss of Pyrrha, or got to express doubts about Qrow, their situation ETC, Ren and Nora basically just accepted everything they were told, and Ruby got maybe two brief bits of such focus, both of which ending up zeroing in on Jaune.

Then in the fifth volume, yes he was fairly low-key, right up until Cinder dropped her vengeance quest against Ruby, the whole reason she attacked as she did, to torment him for a laugh, then she zeroed in on Weiss of all people, to injure just to screw with him. While Ruby does not respond to her partner screaming and losing her Aura, (Pretty sure this was before she was knocked out) and is left unconscious while Weiss is skewered, again to hurt Jaune, while Yang is left stunned and the camera lingers far longer on Jaune's grief while Weiss's team is left cut out from her injury and Weiss's agency was damaged by the experience.

Yes her attitude post healing and skewering Hazel helped, but it was still vexing to many, and presents a consistent and recurring issue of Jaune's feelings being seemingly given more weight, respect and focus by the narrative than members of RWBY, or at their expense.

The problem I have with it is that it seems to ignore like a bunch of vary obvious tells that 1) Eclipse is clearly end game, 2) Blake and Illia are not having any sort of ship tease and 3) there are a bunch of assumptions about how Adam and Yang are going to be handled with no basis in the story.

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You are making a lot of assumptions there.

 

[VolantRedX]

A lot of people are frustrated that several episodes were dedicated to Jaune that could have been given to Yang, who was the only title character with no real focus in V1, especially when said arc was fairly cliche, boring and also had some rather flawed messaging, in that:

Jaune blatantly ignores Glynda's earlier instruction to fight defensively when his Aura is low, continuing to pig heatedly rush a much stronger foe and then he is saved from it by Pyrrha, who lets him continue to think 'he' got that win all on his own to protect his ego, along with the fact Jaune risking his life, potentially his teams with his lack of training, ignorance and unwillingess to accept help due to his ego was never really called out or fully addressed.

Then it just sort of continues in that being for the next volume, but him constantly asking Weiss out and upsetting/annoying her with his inability to grasp that she said no, was added, then in V4, he was the only one who got much focus in terms of grief or dealing with the loss of Pyrrha, or got to express doubts about Qrow, their situation ETC, Ren and Nora basically just accepted everything they were told, and Ruby got maybe two brief bits of such focus, both of which ending up zeroing in on Jaune.

Then in the fifth volume, yes he was fairly low-key, right up until Cinder dropped her vengeance quest against Ruby, the whole reason she attacked as she did, to torment him for a laugh, then she zeroed in on Weiss of all people, to injure just to screw with him. While Ruby does not respond to her partner screaming and losing her Aura, (Pretty sure this was before she was knocked out) and is left unconscious while Weiss is skewered, again to hurt Jaune, while Yang is left stunned and the camera lingers far longer on Jaune's grief while Weiss's team is left cut out from her injury and Weiss's agency was damaged by the experience.

Yes her attitude post healing and skewering Hazel helped, but it was still vexing to many, and presents a consistent and recurring issue of Jaune's feelings being seemingly given more weight, respect and focus by the narrative than members of RWBY, or at their expense.

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I'm not a big fan of his and I don't think the show would be worse without him, but either I'm less sensitive or I'm outright missing things, because for the most part none of this seems to be an issue. His whole bully arc was basically to do a "you need to learn to accept help" special episode that I think is required by law in shows at this point given how common it is. So him being stupid and not learning needed to happen for the sake of that message. I think the reason so much focus is given to him is that he's the least realized person in the whole group. Like he's basically at square one compared to everyone else so writing his growth is a lot easier and more apparent than writing for someone like Ruby who is so advanced at 15 she's above most people twice her age. There's a reason Naruto was the dead last loser protagonist over the skilled and slick Sasuke after all.

The stuff with him asking Weiss out constantly seems more like the guys just missed the boat on the culture realizing just how fucked up that sort of behavior is. I mean until recently "loser doggedly asking popular girl out to her disgust" was pretty common in comedy. Had that happened 5 years earlier not a single person would have thought anything of it.

Beyond that his emotions and issues don't seem any more pushed than anyone else. The whole reason he was taunted by Cinder was to justify his Semblance, which at least gives him something to do from now on. I don't know I just don't even pay any attention to him so I don't see a lot of this.

You are making a lot of assumptions there.

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Sure, but the reverse is true in the video. It's assuming that Blake will be constantly teased for cheap cash in value. Which if they're that cynical about the story I don't understand why they have a channel dedicated to reacting to RWBY.

 

[Emma]

Yeah, most of those skits are pretty forced, especially the Raven one. The Blake one... I can see it, but still feels like a bit of a stretch.

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I dunno, something about Nora getting so bored she'd rather be playing Magic the Gathering got to me.

Which if they're that cynical about the story I don't understand why they have a channel dedicated to reacting to RWBY.

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It's totally possible to have negative feelings about something and enjoy it too. We are all complex beings that occasionally experience complicated, hard to articulate emotions that can neither be descibed as wholly "good" or "bad". That this is reflected in our feelings on art shouldn't be surprising.

In other words...

 

[Zam]

Sure, but the reverse is true in the video. It's assuming that Blake will be constantly teased for cheap cash in value. Which if they're that cynical about the story I don't understand why they have a channel dedicated to reacting to RWBY.

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I didn't watch the video, so I don't know what you mean by teased ETC, but I feel my point is true regardless of what someone else has said.

I'm not a big fan of his and I don't think the show would be worse without him, but either I'm less sensitive or I'm outright missing things, because for the most part none of this seems to be an issue. His whole bully arc was basically to do a "you need to learn to accept help" special episode that I think is required by law in shows at this point given how common it is. So him being stupid and not learning needed to happen for the sake of that message. I think the reason so much focus is given to him is that he's the least realized person in the whole group. Like he's basically at square one compared to everyone else so writing his growth is a lot easier and more apparent than writing for someone like Ruby who is so advanced at 15 she's above most people twice her age. There's a reason Naruto was the dead last loser protagonist over the skilled and slick Sasuke after all.

The stuff with him asking Weiss out constantly seems more like the guys just missed the boat on the culture realizing just how fucked up that sort of behavior is. I mean until recently "loser doggedly asking popular girl out to her disgust" was pretty common in comedy. Had that happened 5 years earlier not a single person would have thought anything of it.

Beyond that his emotions and issues don't seem any more pushed than anyone else. The whole reason he was taunted by Cinder was to justify his Semblance, which at least gives him something to do from now on. I don't know I just don't even pay any attention to him so I don't see a lot of this.

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I may have explained poorly, so I will try and convey my view on the bully episode better, though I will sya first that I fele by no means was it necessary, common genre convention or not.

Jaune's bully arc robbed one of the title characters of potential screen time, Yang, who didn't get focus until V2, it also meant other stuff like Blake and Weiss's arc, or Ruby and Weiss's, were cut short to focus on him. Additionally, it was all about Jaune, not his team, Ren and Nora barely existed and barring saving Jaune and enabling him, Pyrrha was basically just there to constantly focus on him and support him.
Beyond that though, the issue isn't so much him not realizing he needed help at first, its that the issue of his ego causing him to lash out and refuse help and put others in danger wasn't really addressed.
He ignored Glynda's combat advice, survived only because of Pyrrha, is a genuine risk and determinant to his team, but none of that is brought up. He is allowed to go on thinking he beat that Ursa alone and not having to own up to any of the wrong stuff he did or bad decisions he made, its frustrating essentially, to see a character act like a jerk and not get call on it. Focusing on a boring 'square' character because everyone else is more interesting isn't exactly a great idea in my eyes.

As an aside, no, a lot of people would have been bothered by it, its just that they might have been too afraid to voice their concerns, or they'd have been ignored. Though yes, it is a common trope, but that doesn't make it tolerable to those that dislike it or have to put up with guys like that in real life.

As I said, Cinder, who spent the last two volumes obsessing over Ruby, for seemingly no reason, instead decides to focus on tormenting Jaune.
Weiss, one of the main heroes, a badass princess who is her own knight, gets taken out and then skewered, not because she's a threat, or because Cinder wants to hurt her, but to punish Jaune for a laugh.
They give Jaune's feelings on this tons of focus, while the two people present she is much closer to are basically ignored or were removed from the scene.
Weiss was injured for Jaune's benefit and development, which feels like partial fridging at best, which is extra frustrating, especially as Cinder could have picked anyone, Ruby, Nora, Ren and it would have made more sense or been less grating.

Plus his constant "I am tired of losing things, cant lose anyone else' ETC feels kind of annoying coming from the character with the most charmed life and backstory, Ruby & Yang come from a broken home, Weiss's dad is abusive, Blake was a child soldier under a budding mass murderer, Ren and Nora are orphans, but none of them do that and when Yang was depressed she got told off for 'moping'.
Plus, Jaune rushed Cinder in a rage and it seems unlikely anyone in or out of universe is going to call him on it, while in comparison, Yang got constantly railed by the FNDM and her father for trying to save her partner who just got stabbed
An aside I know, but the double standards really grate on me.

Sorry id this comes across poorly, tired and in a rush.

 

[Q99]

It's totally possible to have negative feelings about something and enjoy it too. We are all complex beings that occasionally experience complicated, hard to articulate emotions that can neither be descibed as wholly "good" or "bad". That this is reflected in our feelings on art shouldn't be surprising.

In other words...

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I find a lot of people who start enjoying their anger at something lose sight of it. I've watched a lot of things start from, "ok, that's reasonable criticisms," to "wow, this is really far off the show/comic/novel/whatever," and their work ceases to have much value as criticism- though people can still enjoy that, it kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth (and honestly they often don't sound like they're having fun anymore, which is part of it).

 

[VolantRedX]

I dunno, something about Nora getting so bored she'd rather be playing Magic the Gathering got to me.



It's totally possible to have negative feelings about something and enjoy it too. We are all complex beings that occasionally experience complicated, hard to articulate emotions that can neither be descibed as wholly "good" or "bad". That this is reflected in our feelings on art shouldn't be surprising.

In other words...

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My issue is that when you get to the point where you're saying that the character choices and plot direction are being made solely for commercial gain and brand awareness you're saying that you no longer consider it art. At that point why criticize it on artistic grounds?

I didn't watch the video, so I don't know what you mean by teased ETC, but I feel my point is true regardless of what someone else has said.

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I mean my point makes no sense out of the context of responding to the video so...

Sorry id this comes across poorly, tired and in a rush.

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I mean I get what you're saying. I'm just saying it's odd to hear people constantly bring up how over exposed Jaune is when other than the last two episodes and like the middle two of Volume 1 I don't remember his character having anything going on at all. Like maybe it's because I binged the show just before Volume 4 and didn't watch it from the start, but when I think of Jaune the most I remember is that he annoyed Weiss and had a rather dumb Very Special Episode focused on him. That's about it. Other than that he's done little and said little, and has left no impact in my mind. I can think of a bunch of characters in RWBY that seem to get way more focus than him and aren't part of RWBY. That's not to defend the writing. I'm not saying you're wrong for disliking the direction his character has been taken in, but to me it seems like people focus on him because Miles voices him over what actually is being presented. Like if Miles and Micheal switched characters at the start of the show it feels like people would be calling Sun an author insert and complaining about his screen time, if that makes sense.

 

[Emma]

I find a lot of people who start enjoying their anger at something lose sight of it. I've watched a lot of things start from, "ok, that's reasonable criticisms," to "wow, this is really far off the show/comic/novel/whatever," and their work ceases to have much value as criticism- though people can still enjoy that, it kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth (and honestly they often don't sound like they're having fun anymore, which is part of it).

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Shrug!

If a man wants to write fanfiction about every male in Remnant running a train on Jaune's sweet blonde ass, who am I to say the man making fun of Jaune's place in the narrative is having less fun? I may not get it, but I don't have to. We each approach art and stories in our own ways.

Also don't ask me if I've ever written any fanfiction.

 

[Suzu]

If a man wants to write fanfiction about every male in Remnant running a train on Jaune's sweet blonde ass

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That's a nice idea you have here.

It would a shame...

If someone were to steal it.

 

[Q99]

Another thing about Jaune, he's an exposition character. Not that he delivers it, but he is partially there to trigger exposition at him, by Ozpin, Ruby, or such. In that respect he serves reasonably well, but it's rarely most people's favorite position.

Now that we know things more and similarly Arc doesn't need exposition (and Oscar can step into the role), Jaune's moved a bit back to the B-team with Ren and Nora. He's an allied fighter who can stand on his own but isn't as plot centric.

 

[Zam]

I mean my point makes no sense out of the context of responding to the video so...

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I was more referring to the Eclipse stuff, but fair enough.

I mean I get what you're saying. I'm just saying it's odd to hear people constantly bring up how over exposed Jaune is when other than the last two episodes and like the middle two of Volume 1 I don't remember his character having anything going on at all. Like maybe it's because I binged the show just before Volume 4 and didn't watch it from the start, but when I think of Jaune the most I remember is that he annoyed Weiss and had a rather dumb Very Special Episode focused on him. That's about it. Other than that he's done little and said little, and has left no impact in my mind. I can think of a bunch of characters in RWBY that seem to get way more focus than him and aren't part of RWBY. That's not to defend the writing. I'm not saying you're wrong for disliking the direction his character has been taken in, but to me it seems like people focus on him because Miles voices him over what actually is being presented. Like if Miles and Micheal switched characters at the start of the show it feels like people would be calling Sun an author insert and complaining about his screen time, if that makes sense.

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The thing here is that while its fair and valid for you to feel that way, your experience isn't reflective of anyone's but your own, same for me, ETC, so a lot of other people do feel he's overexposed, has a lot of issues, ETC and you not resonating with that, won't really change their views, so it doesn't offer much as a... I don't know, counter point I guess?

A lot of people, including me, also feel Sun gets way too much attention and focus, though narratively he still tends to operate as a satellite to Blake over being his own character which undercuts that focus a bit.

I do dislike the 'author insert' accusations, if only cos I don't like making my critique personal or making assumptions though.

 

[VolantRedX]

I was more referring to the Eclipse stuff, but fair enough.


The thing here is that while its fair and valid for you to feel that way, your experience isn't reflective of anyone's but your own, same for me, ETC, so a lot of other people do feel he's overexposed, has a lot of issues, ETC and you not resonating with that, won't really change their views, so it doesn't offer much as a... I don't know, counter point I guess?

A lot of people, including me, also feel Sun gets way too much attention and focus, though narratively he still tends to operate as a satellite to Blake over being his own character which undercuts that focus a bit.

I do dislike the 'author insert' accusations, if only cos I don't like making my critique personal or making assumptions though.

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I mean can't say fairer than that. I get why people don't like his character, and at least on FF.N he's way too over exposed, but I feel like some of the heat he gets is mostly due to Miles being both actor and writer than Jaune's direction.

 

[The Narrator]

I feel like people overstate Jaune's issues in Volume 1 and 2. His little bullying arc basically exists to fill out run time. Without it Volume 1 would be much shorter and feel like there was no breathing room.

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"To fill out run time?" That doesn't make any sense. Volume 1 didn't have an overabundance of runtime to fill. There were only 16 episodes that were only about 5-10 minutes long apiece. And a full quarter of that went to Jaune's bullying arc.

You know what would have been a much better use of that time? Developing our four title characters and the relationships between them. That should be the cornerstone of the series. Instead they spent four episodes on Jaune. Tensions between Ruby and Weiss only got two episodes. Tensions between Weiss and Blake only got one, which should have been two but Monty got distracted by a shiny thing during the season finale and it never actually got a resolution. Yang gets no story focus at all in Volume 1.

Then in Volume 2 we've got his stupid Weiss-stalking plotline which, fine, I'll overlook because that sort of behavior is sadly common in shitty romantic comedies. And they don't waste nearly as much time on it as they did on his bullying arc in Volume 1 (it's only ever a subplot in episodes about other things rather than the focus of multiple episodes). But it kind of twisted the other characters around a bit, because as far as I can tell Weiss' interest in Neptune only exists to give Jaune a reason to be jealous and then vanishes entirely from the plot.

I mean can't say fairer than that. I get why people don't like his character, and at least on FF.N he's way too over exposed, but I feel like some of the heat he gets is mostly due to Miles being both actor and writer than Jaune's direction.

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It's possible that people are assigning blame where it isn't due, but it's not exact an unreasonable conclusion for people to come to under the circumstances. He's one of the two lead writers and somebody on the writing team keeps giving the character that he voices a disproportionate amount of screentime and plot importance compared to the nominal protagonists. Neptune and Ren were also voiced by series writers, but people don't accuse them of being Mary Sues because they didn't constantly take over the narrative the way Jaune has. So, yeah, people have reason to be suspicious. (Unless it turns out that Kerry actually writes most of Jaune's scenes or something. )

 

[Zam]

I mean can't say fairer than that. I get why people don't like his character, and at least on FF.N he's way too over exposed, but I feel like some of the heat he gets is mostly due to Miles being both actor and writer than Jaune's direction.

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Agreed, yeah I dislike letting critique spill into personal attack or anything like that, always try and keep it on the show and decisions, over guessing at the motives ya know XD

While I think some people work that into their critique, I am unsure if it would really be any different were he voiced by someone else, Jaune's character and the focus he gets would be the same after all.

 

[Anzer'ke]

I don't get where this idea that Jaune is a Mary Sue insert for Miles comes from. Jaune is barely relevant beyond basically giving Ruby some guilt over Pyrrha and has yet to do anything of note beyond healing Weiss.

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Mostly from Jaune having been far more front and centre in the earlier volumes. Given the amount of backlash against him it's hardly proof of anything that it got toned down later.

 

[VolantRedX]

"To fill out run time?" That doesn't make any sense. Volume 1 didn't have an overabundance of runtime to fill. There were only 16 episodes that were only about 5-10 minutes long apiece. And a full quarter of that went to Jaune's bullying arc.

You know what would have been a much better use of that time? Developing our four title characters and the relationships between them. That should be the cornerstone of the series. Instead they spent four episodes on Jaune. Tensions between Ruby and Weiss only got two episodes. Tensions between Weiss and Blake only got one, which should have been two but Monty got distracted by a shiny thing during the season finale and it never actually got a resolution. Yang gets no story focus at all in Volume 1.

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But as I pointed out earlier, most of RWBY were basically fully actualized when the started. Until the WF showed up to set Blake and Weiss off, and then fucked Blake up more, there was nothing for the group to resolve. They were pretty much a cohesive unit as soon as Weiss and Ruby started playing nice. The only option to stretch more episodes out of them would be to force conflict which would have been silly. Meanwhile his bullying arc seems to be less Miles wanting to be important and more about the staff wanting to do a very special episode, and seeing as he is the weakest link he is the only viable target. So it was less "we want to do a story about Jaune, let's focus on his bullying issues" and more "we want to do a story about bullies and have Jaune play the victim".

Then in Volume 2 we've got his stupid Weiss-stalking plotline which, fine, I'll overlook because that sort of behavior is sadly common in shitty romantic comedies. And they don't waste nearly as much time on it as they did on his bullying arc in Volume 1 (it's only ever a subplot in episodes about other things rather than the focus of multiple episodes). But it kind of twisted the other characters around a bit, because as far as I can tell Weiss' interest in Neptune only exists to give Jaune a reason to be jealous and then vanishes entirely from the plot.

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That actually seemed like a way to set up Phyrra's conflict. Without her feelings for Jaune and the chance that she might be happy with him she has no reason not to agree to becoming the new Fall maiden. His feelings for Weiss seem to exist only to create a love triangle. I mean he got over them pretty much instantly and has not mentioned them since. He was more or less the visible manifestation of her will to live and remain herself.

It's possible that people are assigning blame where it isn't due, but it's not exact an unreasonable conclusion for people to come to under the circumstances. He's one of the two lead writers and somebody on the writing team keeps giving the character that he voices a disproportionate amount of screentime and plot importance compared to the nominal protagonists. Neptune and Ren were also voiced by series writers, but people don't accuse them of being Mary Sues because they didn't constantly take over the narrative the way Jaune has. So, yeah, people have reason to be suspicious. (Unless it turns out that Kerry actually writes most of Jaune's scenes or something. )

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I mean he gets a lot less focus than Sun who is constantly inserting himself into Blake's arc, is the main driver for her change of character, and openly stalks her, and yet not a single person calls him out for it. I will say though, given that Jaune's arc is at this point totally finished I'd expect him to fade back with the rest of JNR. If he doesn't, then yeah maybe there's more to this insert stuff.

 

[Q99]

But as I pointed out earlier, most of RWBY were basically fully actualized when the started. Until the WF showed up to set Blake and Weiss off, and then fucked Blake up more, there was nothing for the group to resolve. They were pretty much a cohesive unit as soon as Weiss and Ruby started playing nice. The only option to stretch more episodes out of them would be to force conflict which would have been silly. Meanwhile his bullying arc seems to be less Miles wanting to be important and more about the staff wanting to do a very special episode, and seeing as he is the weakest link he is the only viable target. So it was less "we want to do a story about Jaune, let's focus on his bullying issues" and more "we want to do a story about bullies and have Jaune play the victim".

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And there really is not a lot of options for bullying!

Trying to bully Ruby seems like it'd either be (A) ineffectual, or (B) if effectual, pretty darn cruel, considering she's two years younger than the bullies. And (C) the Yang problem.

Weiss'd fight back against bullying in a way Jaune wouldn't. Blake'd probably... be very evasive, but it seems like she could get out of blackmail too. Yang... ok, it's not quite as bad as trying to bully Ruby but it'd have to be a very different sort of bullying.

 

[Zam]

Just as a general counter to the idea of needing conflict to pad out the run time, here's how I would like to do it:

OK, an altered and shortened version of Jaundice could take place int he background with a more shared focus on Pyrrha or not, doesn't matter, this is Yang, Blake and, of all people's, Velvet's show:

We see the Velvet scene as normal, but there's more open jeering from random student sin the background, attention is drawn to the fact that even among the heroes, only about 3 of them even paid any attention to what was going on.

Yang slams down her drink and says she needs to go to the bathroom and asks scarpers off, as does Blake with even less fanfare.

We then cut to Blake who is looking for Velvet, only to stumble on her in the locker room, but Blake is trailing behind Yang who found her first and is comforting her and offering her some of her own lunch cos CDRL smashed her to the ground.

Blake reveals herself, and they eventually work out a 'protection' deal, promising to escort Velvet to classes and sit with her at lunch, (Vague references to Weiss making that awkward)

Blake shows hints of knowing a lot about the 'Faunus experience' but whenever it happens, Yang just lingers on it for a second before opting not to bring it up.

Via this stuff, the issues Faunus face are brought front and center, Velvet reveals her team struggles to get hired because she is on it, so she doesn't want to bother them with the bullies she faces as well and that she reported the treatment she gets once before, but only Oobleck did anything and that just led to a massive isolation and a ton of nasty stuff being said about her, and the bullies just getting more subtle for a bit before coming back worse and in larger numbers.

The White Fang comes up, and Blake expresses some discomfort over the acknowledgement of 'I can see why the White Fang is popular, if they punch back against this kind of stuff'.

Generally its more about character and world building over working in a fight scene, but if one is necessary, maybe Yang beats up Cardin in a training match or something.

The 'resolution' is Blake & Yang are even tighter now, and its hinted Yang knows Blake is a Faunus but won't push her on it, ad that CFVY know what's going on with Velvet and got their lunches switched to be with her.


This expands the characters, their relationships, the world, sets up future plot elements, and makes the cast feel wider without taking focus from RWBY members.

Yang gets to show her caring, protective and nurturing side, while Blake's conflicted feelings and frustrations with the current system get attention, as well as her own slowly lowering walls to her team.

The nature of bullying and how its borderline permitted when done to Faunus even in a 'progressive bastions' like Beacon can also be brought up.

I mean he gets a lot less focus than Sun who is constantly inserting himself into Blake's arc, is the main driver for her change of character, and openly stalks her, and yet not a single person calls him out for it. I will say though, given that Jaune's arc is at this point totally finished I'd expect him to fade back with the rest of JNR. If he doesn't, then yeah maybe there's more to this insert stuff.

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A ton of people call Sun out for it, especially me.

 

[VolantRedX]

Trying to bully Ruby seems like it'd either be (A) ineffectual, or (B) if effectual, pretty darn cruel, considering she's two years younger than the bullies. And (C) the Yang problem.

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I mean she'd be the one logically bullies would focus on because she's so young. The issue is that the message of the arc seemed to be "trust your friends with your problems" which isn't a lesson Ruby needed to learn at any point. If nothing else she's clearly has a support network in Yang so the whole thing would be at most one episode long. Had RWBY been a 30 minute Cartoon Network show I could see how it could work, but the first volume's episodes were so short that it would create this sort of illogical dead zone where one episode would be too shot to get through the whole thing, but two episodes would be too long without it feeling like they're forcing the conflict.

A ton of people call Sun out for it, especially me.

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Well it seems that Jaune can't get a line of dialogue in without a drove of people bombing this thread complaining about him taking up screentime.