RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

[kokuenDG]

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

 

[Zam]

Well it seems that Jaune can't get a line of dialogue in without a drove of people bombing this thread complaining about him taking up screentime.

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Jaune's seen as a more persistent issue as Sun was mostly just a satellite character until V4 and even then he basically just hovers around Blake, Jaune gets his own arcs, and often at the expense of other characters like Yang, or Weiss, or Ruby.

 

[Anzer'ke]

Just as a general counter to the idea of needing conflict to pad out the run time, here's how I would like to do it:

OK, am altered and shortened version of Jaundice could take place int he background with a more shared focus on Pyrrha or not, doesn't matter, this is Yang, Blake and, of all people's, Velvet's show:

We see the Velvet scene as normal, but there's more open jeering from random student sin the background, attention is drawn to the fact that even among the heroes, only about 3 of them even paid any attention to what was going on.

Yang slams down her drink and says she needs to go to the bathroom and asks scarpers off, as does Blake with even less fanfare.

We then cut to Blake who is looking for Velvet, only to stumble on her in the locker room, but Blake is trailing behind Yang who found her first and is comforting her and offering her some of her own lunch cos CDRL smashed her to the ground.

Blake reveals herself, and they eventually work out a 'protection' deal, promising to escort Velvet to classes and sit with her at lunch, (Vague references to Weiss making that awkward)

Blake shows hints of knowing a lot about the 'Faunus experience' but whenever it happens, Yang just lingers on it for a second before opting not to bring it up.

Via this stuff, the issues Faunus face are brought front and center, Velvet reveals her team struggles to get hired because she is on it, so she doesn't want to bother them with the bullies she faces as well and that she reported the treatment she gets once before, but only Oobleck did anything and that just led to a massive isolation and a ton of nasty stuff being said about her, and the bullies just getting more subtle for a bit before coming back worse and in larger numbers.

The White Fang comes up, and Blake expresses some discomfort over the acknowledgement of 'I can see why the White Fang is popular, if they punch back against this kind of stuff'.

Generally its more about character and world building over working in a fight scene, but if one is necessary, maybe Yang beats up Cardin in a training match or something.

The 'resolution' is Blake & yang are even tighter now, and its hinted Yang knows Blake is a Faunus but won't push her on it, ad that CFVY know what's going on with Velvet and got their lunches switched to be with her.


This expands the characters, their relationships, the world, sets up future plot elements, and makes the cast feel wider without taking focus from RWBY members.

Yang gets to show her caring, protective and nurturing side, while Blake's conflicted feelings and frustrations with the current system get attention, as well as her own slowly lowering walls to her team.

The nature of bullying and how its borderline permitted when done to Faunus even in a 'progressive bastions' like Beacon can also be brought up.

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There are some flaws in this outline (it never made sense for Velvet to be bullied, unless she somehow only got strong after that) but overall I like it.

It just has one teeny tiny gaping stab wound of a problem. The same problem that this entire conflict between fandom and creators revolves around.

Some of the fandom clearly want RWBY to address themes of bigotry, which is fair enough and makes sense given the current zeitgeist, it's just that RT just as clearly do not want to do so.

They want to use those themes for a bit of flavour, flesh out the world with them, but that's it. Every opportunity to delve deeper is avoided. Even the Menagerie stuff ultimately lacked much to address the issue, and we've seen almost nothing in the small interactions of the show to support the idea that there's widespread racism. All we get is the occasional moment of cartoonish conflict on the subject, without ever letting things get too real.

Which is all we're ever going to get.

A ton of people call Sun out for it, especially me.

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For what? Being her only non-RWBY friend available to come along on her journey? A solo Blake adventure would have gotten old pretty quickly.

 

[VolantRedX]

Some of the fandom clearly want RWBY to address themes of bigotry, which is fair enough and makes sense given the current zeitgeist, it's just that RT just as clearly do not want to do so.

They want to use those themes for a bit of flavour, flesh out the world with them, but that's it. Every opportunity to delve deeper is avoided. Even the Menagerie stuff ultimately lacked much to address the issue, and we've seen almost nothing in the small interactions of the show to support the idea that there's widespread racism. All we get is the occasional moment of cartoonish conflict on the subject, without ever letting things get too real.

Which is all we're ever going to get.

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Which given that the show is written and voiced by pretty much nothing but straight white middle class people that might be a good thing. Though Atlas might open up some opportunities for exploring subtle racism.

 

[The Narrator]

But as I pointed out earlier, most of RWBY were basically fully actualized when the started. Until the WF showed up to set Blake and Weiss off, and then fucked Blake up more, there was nothing for the group to resolve. They were pretty much a cohesive unit as soon as Weiss and Ruby started playing nice. The only option to stretch more episodes out of them would be to force conflict which would have been silly.

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Even if there was no real conflict, they could spend some time showing the team get to know each other and developing the dynamic. This quartet of people, working together, are supposed to be the ones moving the plot along, but we see shockingly little of them interacting with each other in Volume 1. And given their respective backgrounds, the issues between Blake and Weiss should have been a huge thing, rather than an afterthought. We never even really see Weiss learn anything.

So it was less "we want to do a story about Jaune, let's focus on his bullying issues" and more "we want to do a story about bullies and have Jaune play the victim".

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I can't buy that in the slightest. There's no way that was supposed to be a Very Special Episode about bullying. For one thing, the typical Rooster Teeth audience is too old for that to have any meaning to them. For another, the story has no aesop, which completely ruins the point of a Very Special Episode. Jaune doesn't make the bullying stop by doing what he should do (getting help from teachers or even from his friends) but by saving the bully from a monster, which is completely inapplicable to real life.

I mean he gets a lot less focus than Sun who is constantly inserting himself into Blake's arc, is the main driver for her change of character, and openly stalks her, and yet not a single person calls him out for it.

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I also think Sun is kind of a waste of space, but there's no way that he's gotten more focus than Jaune. Maybe in the last couple volumes, since Jaune's screentime-hogging has diminished, but Sun's role was pretty minor until Volume 4 when he became the main person Blake interacted with. When Sun gets to be the main character of a quarter of a season's episodes, then it might be true.

Just as a general counter to the idea of needing conflict to pad out the run time, here's how I would like to do it:

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That's pretty good. It also would have lead quite organically into the next arc where Blake is revealed to be a faunus.

There are some flaws in this outline (it never made sense for Velvet to be bullied, unless she somehow only got strong after that) but overall I like it.

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It makes sense if she assumes (from past experience before she came to Beacon), that if she fights back everyone will blame her for being "violent like an animal" and making things worse. Which would help with the whole prejudice metaphor. No matter who started it, it's always the faunus who gets treated like a criminal.

 

[Tython82]

Then in the fifth volume, yes he was fairly low-key, right up until Cinder dropped her vengeance quest against Ruby, the whole reason she attacked as she did, to torment him for a laugh, then she zeroed in on Weiss of all people, to injure just to screw with him. While Ruby does not respond to her partner screaming and losing her Aura, (Pretty sure this was before she was knocked out) and is left unconscious while Weiss is skewered, again to hurt Jaune, while Yang is left stunned and the camera lingers far longer on Jaune's grief while Weiss's team is left cut out from her injury and Weiss's agency was damaged by the experience.

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1)Ruby at this point was knocked out via Emerald since she was about to Unleash the Silver Eyes
2)Cinder was also in pain since her Grimm arm apparently reacted to the Silver Eyes if only slightly and then Jaune used that opportunity to nearly KILL her(just grazed her mask), so yeah I think she has a reason to go after Weiss to mess with him.

 

[Zam]

1)Ruby at this point was knocked out via Emerald since she was about to Unleash the Silver Eyes
2)Cinder was also in pain since her Grimm arm apparently reacted to theSilver Eyes if only slightly and the Jaune used that opportunity to nearly KILL her, so yeah I think she has a reason to go after Weiss to mess with her.

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1. Pretty sure Weiss screamed at least before Ruby was knocked out.
2. She wasted time playing with and tormenting him int he first place when he meant nothing to her, the whole reason she attacked was to get at Ruby, but she ended up focusing all her energy on Jaune and there was no need to use Weiss for that, given the two barely interact.

There are some flaws in this outline (it never made sense for Velvet to be bullied, unless she somehow only got strong after that) but overall I like it.

It just has one teeny tiny gaping stab wound of a problem. The same problem that this entire conflict between fandom and creators revolves around.

Some of the fandom clearly want RWBY to address themes of bigotry, which is fair enough and makes sense given the current zeitgeist, it's just that RT just as clearly do not want to do so.

They want to use those themes for a bit of flavour, flesh out the world with them, but that's it. Every opportunity to delve deeper is avoided. Even the Menagerie stuff ultimately lacked much to address the issue, and we've seen almost nothing in the small interactions of the show to support the idea that there's widespread racism. All we get is the occasional moment of cartoonish conflict on the subject, without ever letting things get too real.

Which is all we're ever going to get.

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Bullying is as much psychological and about social circumstances as it is personal power, Weiss could snap Jaune like a twig, but still found him forcing his way into her personal space "Too close!" and asked for help, she could beat down Jac even easier, but she doesn't feel she can and he has all the money and social capital. Velvet being stronger than CDRL makes no difference if her fighting back will just turn more people on her, or get her expelled and that assumes her confidence hasn't been so undermined that she even considers it.

While I agree that they haven't addressed it as well as they could, given how much focus its gotten, I disagree that they don't want to try and address is and disagree that the examples seen were 'cartoonish' have you seen real bigots, they are like parodies of themselves.

For what? Being her only non-RWBY friend available to come along on her journey? A solo Blake adventure would have gotten old pretty quickly.

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For stalking Blake.

That's pretty good. It also would have lead quite organically into the next arc where Blake is revealed to be a faunus.

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Thank you, I am glad you feel that way!

 

[Tython82]

1. Pretty sure Weiss screamed at least before Ruby was knocked out.

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Yes she did during her battle with Vernal however what the catalyst for the Silvers Eyes was seeing Cinder and Jaune running at each other Cinder with her fire sword and then she flashes back to the Season 3 death of Pyrrah starts to unleash Silver Eyes then gets knocked on the head by Emerald.
Here is the scene for everyone to remember

 

[VolantRedX]

I can't buy that in the slightest. There's no way that was supposed to be a Very Special Episode about bullying. For one thing, the typical Rooster Teeth audience is too old for that to have any meaning to them. For another, the story has no aesop, which completely ruins the point of a Very Special Episode. Jaune doesn't make the bullying stop by doing what he should do (getting help from teachers or even from his friends) but by saving the bully from a monster, which is completely inapplicable to real life.

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I mean my bullies stopped when I saved them from a Grizzly Bear, so there's some parallels to real life.

 

[Anzer'ke]

It makes sense if she assumes (from past experience before she came to Beacon), that if she fights back everyone will blame her for being "violent like an animal" and making things worse. Which would help with the whole prejudice metaphor. No matter who started it, it's always the faunus who gets treated like a criminal.

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It's a school for learning to beat the shit out of people and monsters. It may be my dissatisfaction with RWBY's world building shining through but I'm not convinced that even racism is going to make a big deal of a second year student putting a first year in their place.

 

[Zam]

Yes she did during her battle with Vernal however what the catalyst for the Silvers Eyes was seeing Cinder and Jaune running at each other Cinder with her fire sword and then she flashes back to the Season 3 death of Pyrrah starts to unleash Silver Eyes then gets knocked on the head by Emerald.

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That's kind of the issue:
Why have the scene set up in such a way that it is built around Jaune?
Why have Ruby, if she need to be removed, not react to her partner screaming, but instead Jaune charging at an enemy?
Why is Cinder focusing on Jaune when she came for Ruby?

It's a school for learning to beat the shit out of people and monsters. It may be my dissatisfaction with RWBY's world building shining through but I'm not convinced that even racism is going to make a big deal of a second year student putting a first year in their place.

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It doesn't even have to, Velvet just needs to feel like it would, and that's assuming she wouldn't get punished or suffer massive blow back from the rest of the school.

 

[Anzer'ke]

Calm down a little huh? I think Jauna was badly implemented too (especially given that normal students at beacon turned out to be shit enough that he could have been just at their level and filled the same exposition role) but comparing his behaviour to violent racist bullying and abusive parenting is just being silly.

While I agree that they haven't addressed it as well as they could, given how much focus its gotten, I disagree that they don't want to try and address is and disagree that the examples seen were 'cartoonish' have you seen real bigots, they are like parodies of themselves.

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Yes, but most bigotry doesn't come from 'real bigots' but from much smaller and subtler displays. Most bigotry is from people who likely don't even consider themselves bigoted.

We haven't seen anything even resembling societal prejudice, excluding the existence of menagerie since even that seems weirdly sterile. Fuck, they had a ship crewed by humans docking there and we still didn't see any actual tension.

So no, RT does not want to address realistic depictions of bigotry, because they've had numerous opportunities and wasted them all.

For stalking Blake.

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You mean the part where he followed his wounded friend to make sure nobody was going to kill her? I'm not sure you know what stalking means.

 

[VolantRedX]

Why have the scene set up in such a way that it is built around Jaune?

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Because Cinder killed his girlfriend?

Why have Ruby, if she need to be removed, not react to her partner screaming, but instead Jaune charging at an enemy?

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Because Jaune is in a lot more danger.

Why is Cinder focusing on Jaune when she came for Ruby?

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The term "playing with your food" comes to mind. Cinder is at the cusp of victory, of course she's going to hurt people just because she can.

 

[The Narrator]

You mean the part where he followed his wounded friend to make sure nobody was going to kill her? I'm not sure you know what stalking means.

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I think he means in Volume 1, where Sun had apparently followed Blake back to her school after having laid eyes on her once. Maybe in Volume 2, where he was apparently lurking outside her window and eavesdropping.

Following Blake in Volume 4 makes a certain degree of sense, because he thought she was going to go all Charles Bronson on their asses and that is the sort of situation in which you probably should follow somebody, either to have their back or to stop them from doing something suicidal.

 

[Zam]

Calm down a little huh? I think Jauna was badly implemented too (especially given that normal students at beacon turned out to be shit enough that he could have been just at their level and filled the same exposition role) but comparing his behaviour to violent racist bullying and abusive parenting is just being silly.

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Um, is this in response to me?

Yes, but most bigotry doesn't come from 'real bigots' but from much smaller and subtler displays. Most bigotry is from people who likely don't even consider themselves bigoted.

We haven't seen anything even resembling societal prejudice, excluding the existence of menagerie since even that seems weirdly sterile. Fuck, they had a ship crewed by humans docking there and we still didn't see any actual tension.

So no, RT does not want to address realistic depictions of bigotry, because they've had numerous opportunities and wasted them all.

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Not denying that, I just dislike treating Cardin or Roman or CDRL like they are unrealistic.

I won't deny its generally more show than tell, or way too open to interpretation to say. Though we know its legal to bar Faunus from stores.

My view is this, if one is going to bring it up, it should be done well and taken seriously, I think RT tried to, but do not actually have the knowledge or experience to handle the subject well, hence a lot of the awkwardness in Blake's messaging and the portrayals of prejudice, that doesn't mean they didn't want to try.

You mean the part where he followed his wounded friend to make sure nobody was going to kill her? I'm not sure you know what stalking means.

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Blake wasn't obviously injured, he was doing so in secret and ran away when she called him out, and openly revealed his reasons for doing so were to fight the White Fang, also if he was so worried about her 'injuries' why jump on her head mid fight?

I think he means in Volume 1, where Sun had apparently followed Blake back to her school after having laid eyes on her once. Maybe in Volume 2, where he was apparently lurking outside her window and eavesdropping.

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This too, its a persistent thing with him to spy on and follow Blake around, which upsets her.

Plus, she's an abuse survivor which makes it worse as well.

Because Cinder killed his girlfriend?

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A, is it confirmed they were dating? B, that doesn't mean Cinder's behavior made sense.

Because Jaune is in a lot more danger.

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Weiss screaming as her Aura breaks is in less danger than Jaune charging someone who has been toying with him the entire time and said scene also only focuses on Jaune in the first place?

The term "playing with your food" comes to mind. Cinder is at the cusp of victory, of course she's going to hurt people just because she can.

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She came there for Ruby, she has been obsessing over her all volume and all through volume 4, why both engaging with some random she doesn't care about when her target is right there and who was the sole reason for her attacking the way she did?

 

[Tython82]

She came there for Ruby, she has been obsessing over her all volume and all through volume 4, why both engaging with some random she doesn't care about when her target is right there and who was the sole reason for her attacking the way she did?

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Because she took Salems words to heart about Ruby's Silver Eye powers being able to screw her over and decides to have her subordinate deal with Ruby so she doesn't get another face full of Silver Eyes? Since her main reason for being there was to get the Spring Maiden powers and the Relic.

 

[VolantRedX]

This is such a stupid pointless argument and I refuse to be a part of it anymore.

 

[Zam]

Because she took Salems words to heart about Ruby's Silver Eye powers being able to screw her over and decides to have her subordinate deal with Ruby so she doesn't get another face full of Silver Eyes? Since her main reason for being there was to get the Spring Maiden powers and the Relic.

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If she had taken Salem's point to heart, she never would have been goaded into the attack int he first place, she never would have wasted time tormenting a nobody, she would have forced Raven to sneak them in, steal the Relic and leave.

But she didn't.

She decided to support the attack plan, because of Ruby, the person she has been obsessing over for months, and then gives no indication she is avoiding Ruby out of fear because she's too busy playing mind games with someone she doesn't recognize.

The only one who seemed to remember, or care, about Ruby's silver eyes was Emerald.

 

[Mook]

2. She wasted time playing with and tormenting him int he first place when he meant nothing to her, the whole reason she attacked was to get at Ruby, but she ended up focusing all her energy on Jaune and there was no need to use Weiss for that, given the two barely interact.

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Cinder never intended to fight Ruby in the first place.



Salem has made it very clear that its a bad, bad idea for Cinder to fight Ruby directly. It seems that Cinder took her advice, hence not confronting her directly and having Emerald keep her busy.


And its very clear that she had not forgotten about Ruby at all. However why take the risk of getting Silverburns while tormenting Ruby in battle when she could capture her and torture her as much as she wanted later when she had Ruby helpless? Its pretty clear that Jaune was just a appetizer to the main course of Ruby that she planned to enjoy at her leisure later.

I think he means in Volume 1, where Sun had apparently followed Blake back to her school after having laid eyes on her once. Maybe in Volume 2, where he was apparently lurking outside her window and eavesdropping.

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Or maybe he just happened to be in the courtyard when Blake showed up because he's an exchange student and is actually staying at Beacon. Also it seems unlikely that he would have brought Neptune if he was actually stalking Blake, nor would he have announced his presence. Plus they actually bring up the implications in the show:



Sun is just a weirdo who likes climbing trees. Him being outside was either just random chance or he was going to greet them normally before he overheard them talking about going after Torchwick.

 

[Zam]

Cinder never intended to fight Ruby in the first place.


Salem has made it very clear that its a bad, bad idea for Cinder to fight Ruby directly. It seems that Cinder took her advice, hence not confronting her directly and having Emerald keep her busy.

And its very clear that she had not forgotten about Ruby at all. However why take the risk of getting Silverburns while tormenting Ruby in battle when she could capture her and torture her as much as she wanted later when she had Ruby helpless? Its pretty clear that Jaune was just a appetizer to the main course of Ruby that she planned to enjoy at her leisure later.

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Given she ended V4 by burning images of Ruby and only participated in the attack to get at Ruby, and literally opened by attacking Ruby, I disagree and also feel it was not made clear that she had ordered Emerald to do as such, or was actually obeying Salem's advice over just bowing and nodding cos its what the boss said.

Or maybe he just happened to be in the courtyard when Blake showed up because he's an exchange student and is actually staying at Beacon. Also it seems unlikely that he would have brought Neptune if he was actually stalking Blake, nor would he have announced his presence. Plus they actually bring up the implications in the show:

Sun is just a weirdo who likes climbing trees. Him being outside was either just random chance or he was going to greet them normally before he overheard them talking about going after Torchwick.

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Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is intentional and Sun's made it a point to insert himself into Blake's life without her permission or knowledge far more times than three, often to her irritation.

Just like how he had an excuse for busting down the door to Ghira's office, him justifying it with some joke doesn't actually change that he was secretly listening in on them when he had no good reason to sneak up there, especially while they were getting changed.

 

[Anzer'ke]

Um, is this in response to me?

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Yep, I admit I have strong feelings over child abuse and people making light of it don't sit well with me.

Not denying that, I just dislike treating Cardin or Roman or CDRL like they are unrealistic.

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Unrealistic is perhaps not the word, unrepresentative is.

The average racist does not act like any of those characters. They're far more insidious and hence I find it irksome when shows pretend that it's only the guy yelling slurs that should be of concern.

Ultimately RWBY uses racism to create convenient villains and provide a paper thin veneer of moral greyness. It certainly does not address it in any serious manner.

I won't deny its generally more show than tell, or way too open to interpretation to say. Though we know its legal to bar Faunus from stores.

My view is this, if one is going to bring it up, it should be done well and taken seriously, I think RT tried to, but do not actually have the knowledge or experience to handle the subject well, hence a lot of the awkwardness in Blake's messaging and the portrayals of prejudice, that doesn't mean they didn't want to try.

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I see little to nothing to suggest a real attempt. Like I said, they mostly just use it to show who we shouldn't like and as a lazy way to make some of the villains look briefly interesting.

Blake wasn't obviously injured, he was doing so in secret and ran away when she called him out, and openly revealed his reasons for doing so were to fight the White Fang, also if he was so worried about her 'injuries' why jump on her head mid fight?

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She'd been stabbed when he started following her, and he couldn't reveal himself or she'd try to lose him. Something she was not doing because she didn't want friends any more but because she was scared they'd get hurt.

It's hard to criticise his judgement in the matter when the first fight she got into would likely have ended badly without him. Not to mention the fights further down the menagerie timeline.

Can you honestly say that if Sun had gotten his arm cut off and Yang had been the one to follow Blake that you'd be making the same complaints?

This too, its a persistent thing with him to spy on and follow Blake around, which upsets her.

Plus, she's an abuse survivor which makes it worse as well.

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Except it doesn't. She grouses about it momentarily a few times, then accepts his presence without any attempt to make him go away. It's a persistent thing because she keeps running away (something she herself points out as a flaw) and needing someone to follow along and lend a hand. Which has to be a side character so that the other members of RWBY can have their own arcs instead of becoming subordinate to hers.

And the idea that being an abuse survivor should make it a problem just reeks of patronising bullshit. Abuse survivors, we can't possibly handle things like normal people can. Too fragile.

 

[Mook]

This is such a stupid pointless argument and I refuse to be a part of it anymore.

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Same. I've said my piece.

 

[Zam]

Yep, I admit I have strong feelings over child abuse and people making light of it don't sit well with me.

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My apologies, though if I can ask, when did I do that?

Unrealistic is perhaps not the word, unrepresentative is.

The average racist does not act like any of those characters. They're far more insidious and hence I find it irksome when shows pretend that it's only the guy yelling slurs that should be of concern.

Ultimately RWBY uses racism to create convenient villains and provide a paper thin veneer of moral greyness. It certainly does not address it in any serious manner.

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That's fair.

Granted with Nazi marches int eh US... Well :/

I see little to nothing to suggest a real attempt. Like I said, they mostly just use it to show who we shouldn't like and as a lazy way to make some of the villains look briefly interesting.

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Well we can;t know for sure so I doubt there is much reason to continue on this track.

She'd been stabbed when he started following her, and he couldn't reveal himself or she'd try to lose him. Something she was not doing because she didn't want friends any more but because she was scared they'd get hurt.

It's hard to criticise his judgement in the matter when the first fight she got into would likely have ended badly without him. Not to mention the fights further down the menagerie timeline.

Can you honestly say that if Sun had gotten his arm cut off and Yang had been the one to follow Blake that you'd be making the same complaints?

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She showed no signs of currently being stabbed and they were on a boat, she couldn't lose him.

Sun barely contributed in that fight, the boost he provided Blake already showed she could do herself, and he spent more time posing, joking and flirting than actually fighting, wait, did they only end up in the dangerous situation they did because of his joking around?

That's irrelevant because it didn't happen.

Also this is why people don't bring up Sun more, because it always comes down to the accusation of "You're just a salty shipper" in one form or another.

Except it doesn't. She grouses about it momentarily a few times, then accepts his presence without any attempt to make him go away. It's a persistent thing because she keeps running away (something she herself points out as a flaw) and needing someone to follow along and lend a hand. Which has to be a side character so that the other members of RWBY can have their own arcs instead of becoming subordinate to hers.

And the idea that being an abuse survivor should make it a problem just reeks of patronising bullshit. Abuse survivors, we can't possibly handle things like normal people can. Too fragile.

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She ignored him for several days and he didn't get the hint, nor did he try and contact the academy or her team, and later she repeatedly slaps and yells at him about it.

That is not what I meant, I am saying having an abuse survivor, who is threatened by her abusive ex and sent fleeing in terror from him, being stalked, having the company of a man whose presence she does not want, forced on her by him, and ultimately thanking him for it, is rather gross and uncomfortable. Actual abuse and stalking survivors have commented on how unpleasant they find it the whole thing.

 

[Zam]

Well the current debate seems to have ended, hopefully, that was getting intense :/


So, does anyone have any thoughts on the idea that Cinder may in fact be dead and that Emerald was always meant to take her place and become a villainous counterpart to Ruby?

 

[UbeOne]

Hm... the circumstances are quite similar, like after what happened to Pyrrha. Whether she cares about Salem's cause or not, she might be in it for revenge now.

If Cinder is dead, then who do you think would end up with the power of the Fall Maiden?

 

[Tython82]

Hm... the circumstances are quite similar, like after what happened to Pyrrha. Whether she cares about Salem's cause or not, she might be in it for revenge now.

If Cinder is dead, then who do you think would end up with the power of the Fall Maiden?

Click to shrink...

Well the Rules state it would be the last woman in the maidens mind as they lay dying, so the most obvious choice would be Raven since she was the last woman that Cinder saw prior to her fall plus Raven did humiliate her so it would leave a lasting impression, unless Cinder was thinking of Emerald as she lay dying thus the powers would transfer to her.