RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
 
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It was obvious to us, the audience. Every time Vernal uses "her" powers, Raven is there with her helmet on. She tells Cinder her name is too appropriate. Vernal is that too. And she sent Vernal to spy on Cinder's group, which would be monumentally stupid if she was the maiden.

Noone in the show knew it. Cinder and co thought it was Vernal.

What I guess happened: Spring ran away as Qrow said and Raven killed her. Got the powers and then Raven made Vernal pretend to be the maiden.
Okay but here is the problem with this, why advertise the fact that she has a Maiden if she wants to steer clear of Salem? It's all pretty much been stated that she wants nothing to do with the whole conflict between Salem and Ozpin so if she has acquired the powers of the Maiden and no one knows about it but herself why advertise that you have the maiden in the first place?
 
Okay but here is the problem with this, why advertise the fact that she has a Maiden if she wants to steer clear of Salem? It's all pretty much been stated that she wants nothing to do with the whole conflict between Salem and Ozpin so if she has acquired the powers of the Maiden and no one knows about it but herself why advertise that you have the maiden in the first place?

Well she probably wasn't advertising the fact the bandits had a Maiden. Remember Qrow figured out that the bandits had spring from the village that got attacked. The raid that Raven said they weren't expecting the Grimm to set in so quickly with the Nucklevein. So basically that was a bad day for everyone

That's something that can cause someone to hit the emergency glass for the Maiden powers even if usually one is not supposed to.

Even with Weiss and Yang, a single lightning bolt can be down to Vernal having an overpowered semblance as long as lightning is consistently used.

After that everyone has figured out or been told that the bandits have a spring Maiden so Raven stops hiding that fact.

Which admittedly makes it much easier to hide the fact that they are wrong to be assuming she's too old to be a Maiden, or at least was too old to inherit when Spring was missing.
 
It was obvious to us, the audience. Every time Vernal uses "her" powers, Raven is there with her helmet on. She tells Cinder her name is too appropriate. Vernal is that too. And she sent Vernal to spy on Cinder's group, which would mentally stupid if she was the maiden.

Noone in the show knew it. Cinder and co thought it was Vernal.

What I guess happened: Spring ran away as Qrow said and Raven killed her. Got the powers and then Raven made Vernal pretend to be the maiden.

Ok. With that explained there was definitely more foreshadowing then I gave credit for. Just, between the fact that Raven's mask seems to be her 'game face'(shown whenever she went into combat), and given that the show hasn't been above ribbing itself on naming conventions or mandating them...well it's not too hard for me to miss it because it seems like general RWBY being dumb.

The thing for me with Vernal was it fit. Kid at turning of training runs with the powers and just like the last Maiden we knew.

Also, if the last maiden died...wouldn't there be a thing about it? shouldn't there be some bit where they're llke 'Raven picked up Spring, spring hasn't been sighted since, she probably died'.
 
So, last week's episode is finally up on YouTube, and my first thought upon looking at the first scene is "what the fuck is Qrow doing with his hands?"

His posture seems to indicate that he's slouching as he walks with his hands in his pockets like Spike from Cowboy Bebop. Except his hands aren't in his pockets, they're just on the sides of his legs. Is someone putting their hands in their pockets something they can't do with the 3D engine?
 
They assumed she joined her and was still alive.
Also notably there's never any sign of recognition between any of the Ozluminati and Vernal when she shows up and nobody in the Ozluminati refers to the Spring Maiden from 10 years ago by name. Clever bit of obfuscation there, it seems completely natural both to us and the characters to speak of the Spring Maiden because that's the part that's actually relevant. So we never found it strange that Leo or Qrow never says "Vernal" at any point, likely because the previous Spring Maiden was named Vermillion or something else completely different.
 
its kind of obnoxious. Feels like it should be damned obvious if Spring was Raven. Like that isn't the sort of thing you brief your people on when you talk about retrieving he Spring maiden? Just. Eigh. The one time the series caught me off guard and it feels almost like it cheated because the foreshadowing was so off.

I don't think they knew. It's very well likely that none of them knew. Except, maybe, Ozpin. But he may have lost the maiden's wherabouts as well and not realized the power had transferred to Raven. If he did know, reasons for not telling could simply be information security. It would be need to know until they put together their team to retrieve the Spring Maiden.

Lionheart didn't necessarily know more than what a good info broker could put together from rumors and hearsay. 'The Branwen Tribe is home to the Spring Maiden. She has been with them for a decade.'

Qrow very likely didn't know, or else his conversations with his sister would have gone very differently.

Although I sort of wish they'd moved the time back. Make it 14 years instead of ten, and suddenly it would be both True. 'The Spring Maiden was taken in by the Branwen Tribe' and simultaneously the last straw that caused Raven to break with Ozpin.


Raven, is a survivalist, her first goal is preserving herself and her 'family'. She is also utterly convinced that Salem is going to win. And being a maiden means she's fated to come to battle with Salem in Ozpin's grand long game.
 
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You know rewatching some scenes from volume 4 made me realize what Salem was trying to help Cinder with, controlling her new Grimm arm.
 
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Raven comments on how Cinder being named Fall had to be done deliberately.

Which seems hypocritical when Raven and Vernal are just as deliberate seeming.

But then it turns out that Vernal's name was a deliberate deception that Raven used to trick Cinder and that Raven's ravenness is the least important thing about her.

However the real fridge brilliance is that Cinder Fall is also a deliberate deception just like Vernal. It obscufates the fact that Cinder has a way to gain the powers of more than one Maiden.

Both Cinder and Raven+Vernal got screwed because they fell for the surface appearances that the other party was putting up. And the suspiciously appropriate names were both equally misleading.
 
And now Raven knows to avoid the hell outta that arm.

Or cut it off first, which I'm also fine with.
 
Can I just say, it seems really dumb to replace the arm that got burned off by anti-grimm laser eyes with a bit of grimm that's going to be even weaker to laser eyes than your original arm was?

I mean, the arm is also stretchy, which is cool I guess, but still.
 
Can I just say, it seems really dumb to replace the arm that got burned off by anti-grimm laser eyes with a bit of grimm that's going to be even weaker to laser eyes than your original arm was?

I mean, the arm is also stretchy, which is cool I guess, but still.
You know in hindsight I'm thinking that Salem did some modifications on Cinder before she attacked the Fall Maiden in order to insure she got the power. She used a Grimm on Amber if I remember correctly so by that point she was already part Grimm on some level. Adding more pieces doesn't make her any weaker to the eyes than she already was. The arm probably makes it easier for her to steal Maiden powers if anything.

As per tradition with my rants:

Aura is starting to become something that works as long as its convenient to the story

Vernal's aura was down for some reason or it somehow got depleted whilst she was styling on Weiss. It's probably the Grimm arm but then why don't all Grimm bypass aura like that. Vernal and Raven were planning on backstabbing Cinder so why wouldn't she be prepared for shit to go down?

Now let's talk about the real part of this episode like the big disappointment that was Hazel's backstory. I was expecting something that was more deep than "My sister went to your combat school of her own free will and died in training!". Like ffs, he seemed so much more interesting with his whole "Nobody needed to die" bullshit. I pegged him as a former colleague of Ozpin who suffered some form of honest to god betrayal that left him mad enough at Ozpin that he'd team up with Salem of all people. I was expecting hypocrisy and all I got was petty revenge bullshit mixed in with hypocrisy. I'm hoping there's more to the situation than what we've been given

Also, I'm not understanding all the confusion surrounding Raven being the Maiden and nobody knowing. The only thing our heroes and Salem's group knew was that the Spring Maiden was in the possession of Raven's tribe. No elaboration on her identity or name. This meant that for all intents and purposes, nobody knew who the actual maiden was aside from Raven and Vernal. I wonder what Qrow's reaction is gonna be like.

Now what did I like?
  • Holy shit I'm loving Cinder's petty bitchiness with each episode.
  • Ozpin in Oscar's body is giving me Kingdom Heart flashbacks
  • Leo rolling down the stairs and hitting Hazel was stupid but hilarious. Probably messed up the serious atmosphere the episode was supposed to have. Still funny though.
  • Ozpin's "Oh No" which was funny.
  • Ozpin taking over Oscar's body against his will. Smart move that is currently allowing him to fend off Hazel. It's gonna create some serious trust issues with Oscar so I'm looking forward to that.
  • Oscar telling Hazel that his sister knew the risks




My final thoughts on this episode is:

WATCHA GONNA DO WHEN HAZELMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOU!!!! (omg his powers are really stupid I've seen that shit done better in the fanficiton)
 
Ozpin in Oscar's body is giving me Kingdom Heart flashbacks
Ah, so I wasn't the only one thinking that with his jumping around?
WATCHA GONNA DO WHEN HAZELMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOU!!!! (omg his powers are really stupid I've seen that shit done better in the fanficiton)
The part that really confused me about what Hazel did is : Why the hell did he tear apart his jacket?! It wasn't to reach for the crystals, it didn't give him more access to his arms so he could stab himself, it served no purpose.
 
Vernal's aura was down for some reason or it somehow got depleted whilst she was styling on Weiss. It's probably the Grimm arm but then why don't all Grimm bypass aura like that. Vernal and Raven were planning on backstabbing Cinder so why wouldn't she be prepared for shit to go down?


. . .

Also, I'm not understanding all the confusion surrounding Raven being the Maiden and nobody knowing. The only thing our heroes and Salem's group knew was that the Spring Maiden was in the possession of Raven's tribe. No elaboration on her identity or name. This meant that for all intents and purposes, nobody knew who the actual maiden was aside from Raven and Vernal. I wonder what Qrow's reaction is gonna be like.

Not all Grimm are created equal, and Salem's Grimm arm is bonded to a human host. A maiden no less. So it's anyone's guess what it makes her capable of.

. . .

As for Raven, it's a matter of misplaced expectations. (Raise your hand if you didn't realize Penny was a robot :V). Names seem like they have obvious meaning in this show, so the sudden subversion caught people by surprise. Sometimes surprises are good and sometimes they're bad. Worse, if you're trying to keep a secret, it can be really hard to gauge if your surprise if coming off well or poorly.

I appreciate that the crew worked to leave us hints that became obvious in retrospect, but I think they could have done a bit more crypto-foreshadowing without giving away the game.

If they'd been willing to play around a bit more with Vernal's age. Made her a bit older. They could have moved the time since the Spring Maiden was reported with the Branwen's back to just after Raven abandoned Tai and Yang and I don't think anyone would have made the connection until afterwords.
 
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If there is one thing I like about Hazel's motivation its that it is as pathetic and hypocritical as everything else about him.

After all, for all his claims of "no one had to die today" and not wanting to kill, he doesn't actually do anything to stop the murder of Sienna and he actively helps create the situation that force Ren and Nora to fight him and his yelling at Oscar about how the blood won't be on his hands just all combine together to paint a picture of a psychological/emotional/morale coward who refuses any kind of personal responsibility but dresses up his indifference or outright villainous actions as not his fault or practically forced upon him.
 
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Raven comments on how Cinder being named Fall had to be done deliberately.

Which seems hypocritical when Raven and Vernal are just as deliberate seeming.

But then it turns out that Vernal's name was a deliberate deception that Raven used to trick Cinder and that Raven's ravenness is the least important thing about her.

However the real fridge brilliance is that Cinder Fall is also a deliberate deception just like Vernal. It obscufates the fact that Cinder has a way to gain the powers of more than one Maiden.

Both Cinder and Raven+Vernal got screwed because they fell for the surface appearances that the other party was putting up. And the suspiciously appropriate names were both equally misleading.

I'd say... Would you even expect someone with a normal name like Cinder Phillips to even become one half of a Maiden? Cinder Johnson? Cinder Fahrman? On the other hand, will you expect Georgina Fall to have incineration related powers?
 
Okay so reading through the Tropes page actually had an interesting insert for the foreshadowing about Jaunes healing powers:
His Semblance was actually foreshadowed in the video game Grimm Eclipse - mastering his Natural Leader Ultimate has Jaune's battlecry grant the team a passive healing effect, speeding up Aura regeneration. As shown below in Healing Hands, Jaune's semblance seems to work by transferring his Aura to others. This acutally makes me wonder if any of the other abilities shown in Grimm Eclipse will make an appearance in one form or another in the show proper.
 
Okay so reading through the Tropes page actually had an interesting insert for the foreshadowing about Jaunes healing powers:
His Semblance was actually foreshadowed in the video game Grimm Eclipse - mastering his Natural Leader Ultimate has Jaune's battlecry grant the team a passive healing effect, speeding up Aura regeneration. As shown below in Healing Hands, Jaune's semblance seems to work by transferring his Aura to others. This acutally makes me wonder if any of the other abilities shown in Grimm Eclipse will make an appearance in one form or another in the show proper.
Now what will you say if GE updates an alternate design for Pyrrha one day?
 
So what are we going to see next episode? I'm betting that Weiss is going to get back into the fight and she'll summon that Queen Lancer Grimm from episode 2. I'd love to see Weiss summon her boarbatusk again, but that seems unlikely. After that we will see a bit of Raven and Cinder fighting. Most of the maiden fight will happen off screen and we'll just get to see them come back up the elevator. I don't think the relic will play a part this episode. Finally Blake's army will arrive. Perhaps Blake has to make the hard decision of NOT focusing on Adam. Ghira and Ilia could lead him on a wild goose chase.

It would be nice if Qrow's semblance would kick in eventually!!!
 
So, having just binge-watched RWBY I have several comments and questions.


How did Cinder and co sneak their plans past Ozpin, given he had the forest and presumably Beacon bugged? Did he not have the foreign student's rooms bugged? Even so, the amount of times they discussed in public should have tipped him off.

Who else thinks Neo just walks around in pajamas or t-shirts and uses her powers to look like she took all the effort to dress all fancy.

Tyrian having his tail chopped off is actually pretty horrific if his tail actually matches a scorpion's. They have their rectum right before the stinger, and when it breaks of the opening will seal shut and they'll just swell up and die over about eight months. Probably shorter for Tyrian, which makes him getting a new tail make more sense.


And also, while what's happening to Faunus in the show is horrifyingly racist, the fact that Blake shows they have the instincts of their animal and they seem to be partially involuntary if the laser pointer is any indication is terrifying. There's already been a female spider Faunus and female spiders eat their mates. Sea Lice babies eat their way out of their mother in a fatal fashion, and two different Faunus parent results in a random Faunus child.
A Faunus with a poison dart frog's skin can't touch people without killing them. Or Vampire Bats and Bed Bugs who can't eat anything other than blood.
On a much lesser level, a comment from Blake about a Nocturnal Sector implies sleep cycles even carry over, so imagine being forced into the night shift outside of Menagerie.

It's a roll of the dice and there's lots of ways to fail, many more than I mentioned.
 
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How did Cinder and co sneak their plans past Ozpin, given he had the forest and presumably Beacon bugged? Did he not have the foreign student's rooms bugged? Even so, the amount of times they discussed in public should have tipped him off.
What makes you think the rooms in Beacon were bugged? The forest was monitored because hey, they were testing the students there, and maybe also to try and make sure they could prevent anyone from dying, but I don't remember anything suggesting Beacon itself was monitored. EDIT: And even if the public areas were bugged, bugging the dorms would be messed up beyond belief.
 
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What makes you think the rooms in Beacon were bugged? The forest was monitored because hey, they were testing the students there, and maybe also to try and make sure they could prevent anyone from dying, but I don't remember anything suggesting Beacon itself was monitored. EDIT: And even if the public areas were bugged, bugging the dorms would be messed up beyond belief.
Point about the rooms probably not being bugged but I did go on to mention that they discussed their plans in public a lot.
I guess the public areas might not have been bugged but I'm still surprised they never got caught on anything considering they did things like discussing their plans at the dance right after the heist or Emerald's exasperated eyeroll right after she looks away from RWBY.
They're about as stealthy as you expect teenagers and however old Cinder is to be. Probably 18-22.

Probably not enough to fail, mind you, but enough to suffer suspicion or have their plans be harder.
 
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