RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

kokuenDG · May 1, 2022

so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.

Zam · Dec 5, 2016

Feng Lengshun said:
Because what I see in Menagerie is an Arcadia that is becoming crowded because the citizen isn't addressing the problem of space and lack of resources/export which they had eighty years and two wars to deal with. In other words, lack of genuine problems against the Faunus and more problems that they created by themselves and then whine about.

How exactly is this not theory on your part?

Also just as an aside, did you watch the world of Remnant on Faunus?

Feng Lengshun · Dec 5, 2016

Zam said:
How exactly is this not theory on your part?

It is a theory, but I'm not using it to defend the creators. I can have my theories and still judge them based on what is displayed by the creator - which is way too ambiguous. It's so ambiguous that there are so many ways to interpret it. I would prefer if we have a solid big picture on the Faunus' situation by now.

Three volumes plus the latest episode that was dedicated entirely to them and their living place and we're still no closer to having a solid view on their current situation. On the opposite, it's getting more ambiguous.

If it's a setup for a twist that the Faunus aren't entirely blameless or something, then I'm fine. But I'm just feeling like they can't make up their mind or misstepped in how to depict "cramped-ness", "lack of infrastructure", and the "problems" of living as a Faunus and in Menagerie. I'm just having a flashback to the Vacuan invasion instead of thinking "Huh, they do have a shitty life." Again, if that's their intent, then I'd clap, but I'm honestly not sure because they had never pointed towards that way before much less build up anything like that, other than perhaps the lack of visible racism post V1 (aside from Roman's speech and his insults) which I don't know if it's meant to be interpreted that way or is an oversight on their part.

Just to make it clear, my problem with the episode, Faunus, and Menagerie's execution is that to me, they're too ambiguous and I don't know how they are meant to be interpreted by the creator and that I prefer to have a clear lead by this (three volumes and five episode into the fourth) point in the story. I have theories and internal explanations on how the situations really are, but I'm not going to do their job for them - they have to be the one that states and show clearly what they want out of the Faunus and Menagerie sub-plot, not me or any other fan. I am criticizing and am mostly cautious of the seemingly flip-flop and lack of seriousness in the way they show and executed the Faunus and Menagerie situation.

With the return of the White Fang, I fear that they are going to focus on the conflict between the cast and them once again instead of addressing what is the issue with the Faunus, Menagerie, and the humans exactly are. Hence part of the reason why I am so critical even though I have some explanations for it in my head, the other part because I am personally invested in the topic they are tackling hence why I am rather emotional and harsh about it, though you may think of it as a tough love of sort since I really do want them to do the topic justice and present an interesting situation in the show.

Does that make it clear what my stance is in regards to the Faunus-Menagerie sub-plot? Also, I am looking and comparing it closely to the Ishvalan sub-plot of Fullmetal Alchemist, which was excellently done in my personal opinion and another reason why I seem unfair or harsh in my opinion (it might also seem unfair as FMA has more time to deal with their subject, which for one I would argue that the onus is on them to do the topic and sub-plot justice since they are the one who made the choice, and two, we got a clear direction for Ishvalan's depiction by fourth or so appearance of Scar, in the slums).

Zam said:
Also just as an aside, did you watch the world of Remnant on Faunus?

I have.

Regency · Dec 5, 2016

Hey, so Hazel was sent to 'convince' Sienna Khan, current WF leader right? and Adam was mentioned to have gone rogue and took the Vale chapter WF with him (assuming Foxbros are telling half-truths), could it be Sienna though possibly still hardliner, is not Grimm-mask level of terribleness yet? It just mean that Foxbros are Adam's bitches.

Or is she already one of Salem's inner circle member by the looks of WF more radical approach? It can be that they're using deniability of Adam's actions for less savory operations.

Feng Lengshun · Dec 5, 2016

Regency said:
Hey, so Hazel was sent to 'convince' Sienna Khan, current WF leader right? and Adam was mentioned to have gone rogue and took the Vale chapter WF with him (assuming Foxbros are telling half-truths), could it be Sienna though possibly still hardliner, is not Grimm-mask level of terribleness yet? It just mean that Foxbros are Adam's bitches.

Or is she already one of Salem's inner circle member by the looks of WF more radical approach? It can be that they're using deniability of Adam's actions for less savory operations.

I don't think Sienna is in the inner circle. Associate, or "sub-contractor", maybe. But I think that it's most probably that she's in the Salem corner. We don't really know how it is until we see what exactly is up with her. For all we know he/she is just waiting for the right time or the right persuasion to change side.

Sinsystems · Dec 5, 2016

Regency said:
Hey, so Hazel was sent to 'convince' Sienna Khan, current WF leader right? and Adam was mentioned to have gone rogue and took the Vale chapter WF with him (assuming Foxbros are telling half-truths), could it be Sienna though possibly still hardliner, is not Grimm-mask level of terribleness yet? It just mean that Foxbros are Adam's bitches.

Or is she already one of Salem's inner circle member by the looks of WF more radical approach? It can be that they're using deniability of Adam's actions for less savory operations.

I think Salem is planning a coup within the White Fang with the aims of putting Adam in charge, which would likely lead to him trying to radicalize what remaining peaceful members there are.

I think Sienna Khan while still relatively violent at the very least wants to keep civilian casualties down and only targets those who are obviously oppressing the Faunus, basically she wants equality but doesn't want to harm those no involved. By contract Adam seems to be in a more "We need to tear down the world to rebuild it like we want" sort of mindset.

Zam · Dec 5, 2016

Regency said:
Hey, so Hazel was sent to 'convince' Sienna Khan, current WF leader right? and Adam was mentioned to have gone rogue and took the Vale chapter WF with him (assuming Foxbros are telling half-truths), could it be Sienna though possibly still hardliner, is not Grimm-mask level of terribleness yet? It just mean that Foxbros are Adam's bitches.

Or is she already one of Salem's inner circle member by the looks of WF more radical approach? It can be that they're using deniability of Adam's actions for less savory operations.

I imagine that Sienna and the rest of the WF genuinely regarded the Vale branch as either dead and gone or rogue at first, but then they popped back up with Paladins, and Bullheads and grandstanding stories about "powerful allies" and "Crushing the corrupt system" ETC to them, which, if framed properly, would likely seem much more productive than riling up protesters or raiding trains and prejudice shops.

That is to say, I think inline with some others here that the "They went rogue" is a half truth as that was the general view at one point, but now the circumstances have changed and that some in the WF may not fully grasp exactly how destructive what Adam is promising will turn out to be, especially if they don't have access to any news in Vale and therefore wouldn't necessarily know the specifics of the Fall of Beacon like the Grimm or the destruction of the tower or even the WF's involvement there beyond either a very "Re-framed" version or only the upper management.

Personally I am hoping for some more reasonable White Fang, that would leave me like: "Yeah I still don't agree with what you're doing, but you aren't destroying the world."

Feng Lengshun said:
I have.

Ah OK then just checking.

Feng Lengshun said:
It is a theory, but I'm not using it to defend the creators. I can have my theories and still judge them based on what is displayed by the creator - which is way too ambiguous. It's so ambiguous that there are so many ways to interpret it. I would prefer if we have a solid big picture on the Faunus' situation by now.

Three volumes plus the latest episode that was dedicated entirely to them and their living place and we're still no closer to having a solid view on their current situation. On the opposite, it's getting more ambiguous.

If it's a setup for a twist that the Faunus aren't entirely blameless or something, then I'm fine. But I'm just feeling like they can't make up their mind or misstepped in how to depict "cramped-ness", "lack of infrastructure", and the "problems" of living as a Faunus and in Menagerie. I'm just having a flashback to the Vacuan invasion instead of thinking "Huh, they do have a shitty life." Again, if that's their intent, then I'd clap, but I'm honestly not sure because they had never pointed towards that way before much less build up anything like that, other than perhaps the lack of visible racism post V1 (aside from Roman's speech and his insults) which I don't know if it's meant to be interpreted that way or is an oversight on their part.

Just to make it clear, my problem with the episode, Faunus, and Menagerie's execution is that to me, they're too ambiguous and I don't know how they are meant to be interpreted by the creator and that I prefer to have a clear lead by this (three volumes and five episode into the fourth) point in the story. I have theories and internal explanations on how the situations really are, but I'm not going to do their job for them - they have to be the one that states and show clearly what they want out of the Faunus and Menagerie sub-plot, not me or any other fan. I am criticizing and am mostly cautious of the seemingly flip-flop and lack of seriousness in the way they show and executed the Faunus and Menagerie situation.

With the return of the White Fang, I fear that they are going to focus on the conflict between the cast and them once again instead of addressing what is the issue with the Faunus, Menagerie, and the humans exactly are. Hence part of the reason why I am so critical even though I have some explanations for it in my head, the other part because I am personally invested in the topic they are tackling hence why I am rather emotional and harsh about it, though you may think of it as a tough love of sort since I really do want them to do the topic justice and present an interesting situation in the show.

Does that make it clear what my stance is in regards to the Faunus-Menagerie sub-plot? Also, I am looking and comparing it closely to the Ishvalan sub-plot of Fullmetal Alchemist, which was excellently done in my personal opinion and another reason why I seem unfair or harsh in my opinion (it might also seem unfair as FMA has more time to deal with their subject, which for one I would argue that the onus is on them to do the topic and sub-plot justice since they are the one who made the choice, and two, we got a clear direction for Ishvalan's depiction by fourth or so appearance of Scar, in the slums).

OK there's a lot to unpack here so I hope its OK I don't go into a ton of detail, and regardless I will try to keep it in order.

I feel coming up with theories and using them to discredit the creators isn't exactly fair, sorry if it seems I'm mis-representing you that isn't my intent. Though I do agree that being clearer on Faunus mistreatment would be better.

The thing for me is that given how isolated Menagarie is, plus the name and its background, the Fuanus doing reasonably well there is not a sign of a lack of human prejudice ill-affecting them but just the Faunus having done well in a bad situation. Though yeah the cramped line feels weird, I feel like the animation engine must have struggled or something.

I think I get it, you're prefer it if the prejudice and issues faced were more clearly defined before any more fighting breaks out, or that the "seeming" inconsistencies were addressed to change the face of the issues and narrative?

FMA did do quite a good job on that front and I won't deny RT could do better, there's a lot I can take from the WOE, and implications/subtext but for issues like this over text is often necessary.

DezoPenguin · Dec 5, 2016

I think one thing that needs to be remembered in any theory discussion about an ongoing series is predictive value*. This is something that @Sunder the Gold alluded to earlier in discussing whether Sun is a creeper or not. Whenever there are multiple possible interpretations of something available in the story, it's important to remember that the story is a story, being told by human beings, and that the events in it are part of a constructed narrative.

If a theory is incompatible with the narrative as a whole, then it probably needs to be discarded.

Now, that's not to say that things can't be bad writing. Jaune's feelings for Weiss being more than a crush on a cute, socially prominent girl are badly written because we don't get to see any of the things he talks about that gave rise to those feelings. That's different than saying that they aren't true in the story. Similarly, anti-Faunus discrimination has been a lot more "tell, don't show" so far, with what's actually shown being a lot more equality than bias (this being, IMHO, because our limited screen time is largely spent on protagonists and the "good guys" shouldn't be racist dicks, so we don't see racist dickery). That's not good writing. But we're clearly meant to understand that it exists and that future interactions and plotlines will be treated in that way.

*In a concluded series, there's nothing to predict, and tinfoil-hattery can therefore flourish unrestricted.

firefossil · Dec 5, 2016

thesevenwielder said:
Show don't tell.

Indeed.

Storyteller said:
Out of curiosity what is your definition of show not tell?

The show does use Blake for less subtle exposition, but look for what isn't there and not just at what the scene is applying focus to.

Bullying in the middle of the cafeteria

No one actually intervenes

Cardin gets away with calling the Faunus animals in class with Oobleck only shaking his head when several of his classmates just raised their hands about facing discrimination for their heritage.

Lack of Representation at the Vytale Festival which and I quote: "celebration of the workd's cultures

Lack of consideration in World of Remnant segements.

Isn't considered a Kingdom despite being apparently self sufficient, form of government and ability to protect itself. With the majority of the workd's Faunus population there so it cannot be by population.

Following the above, Sun the Vacuo native sees the place as great (the forced relocation not withstanding) so Vacuo is both a Kingdom but with worse standards of living or so it appears at this time.

Again lack of a CCT tower as we are told there are four in Vale, Atlas, Vacuo and Mantle. Despite being founded as consequence of the Great War and the Atlas gifting the CCT to the world after said war.

The sharp leap of Faunus in Menagerie to the point of population appearing closer to a city than Kingdom despite lack of facilities. Like a CCT tower. When we see handfuls other than the WF everywhere else in the show up to this point.

Blake passing for human and stating she wouldn't need the ribbon anymore when she headed to Menagerie.

Most of that is either telling or very oblique and implicit showing that is subject to interpretations. Blake pointedly didn't comment on the Vytal Festival. There is being subtle and there is being opaque.

To me the biggest example is the Schnee. We know that the White Fang has attacked them, not just destroying their property but killing their employees and family members. And this was done because... I think the only statement we've gotten is late into S2 at the campfire scene when Weiss said her family's company has a bad reputation and doesn't treat faunus well, which Blake concurred with hard. I think one of the World of Remnants may have vaguely implied misbehavior as well, though that may had more to do with Atlas. I can't remember a single hard fact on Schnees exploiting faunus...

Leingod · Dec 5, 2016

firefossil said:
To me the biggest example is the Schnee. We know that the White Fang has attacked them, not just destroying their property but killing their employees and family members. And this was done because... I think the only statement we've gotten is late into S2 at the campfire scene when Weiss said her family's company has a bad reputation and doesn't treat faunus well, which Blake concurred with hard. I think one of the World of Remnants may have vaguely implied misbehavior as well, though that may had more to do with Atlas. I can't remember a single hard fact on Schnees exploiting faunus...

In their very first scene in the series proper, Blake says very matter-of-factly that the SDC is "infamous for its controversial labor forces and questionable business partners." And Weiss can offer no rebuttal to this except sputtering in outrage and then storming off. If anyone would have both the motivation and the facts to present a compelling counterargument to this, it would be early series Weiss. But the best she can do is stammer out a "How dare-! The nerve of-!" and then f*cking off.

In addition, Flynt Coal's dad was run out of business by the SDC, and Weiss has no problem believing this. Not that I'm saying they're like Wal-Mart and deliberately targeting competitors to destroy them and make communities dependent on them for a vital service (and yes, it is a fact backed by evidence that Wal-Mart did this and did this intentionally), but it doesn't really make a good argument for them as good guys, either.

Tython82 · Dec 5, 2016

Leingod said:
Flynt Coal's dad was run out of business by the SDC

That always bugged me because to me it sounds like he is just blaming SDC for ruining his Dad's business when we know nothing about his dads business. We know nothing of the services he offered, his variety of products, or the quality of said products/customer service. For all we know SDC was simply a better place to shop for Dust and Dust related products. If Flynt's dad couldn't keep up then tough luck that's the business world when you get competition you either step up and either rival/beat your competition or get crushed by the competition. Also yes I do get the Wal-Mart reference/parallels but again we don't know anything except for Fylnts opinion which is very biased for various reasons. Although Weiss's apology might indicate that she is aware that something sneaky went down in regards to said business practices but again we don't know since after that it's not really elaborated on what tactics Fylnt was talking about or what Weiss might know.

Zam · Dec 5, 2016

Tython82 said:
If Flynt's dad couldn't keep up then tough luck that's the business world when you get competition you either step up and either rival/beat your competition or get crushed by the competition.

How exactly is a presumably small family owned store meant to keep up with a multi-national monolithic organisation that has been noted for being shady?

firefossil · Dec 5, 2016

Leingod said:
In their very first scene in the series proper, Blake says very matter-of-factly that the SDC is "infamous for its controversial labor forces and questionable business partners." And Weiss can offer no rebuttal to this except sputtering in outrage and then storming off. If anyone would have both the motivation and the facts to present a compelling counterargument to this, it would be early series Weiss. But the best she can do is stammer out a "How dare-! The nerve of-!" and then f*cking off.

In addition, Flynt Coal's dad was run out of business by the SDC, and Weiss has no problem believing this. Not that I'm saying they're like Wal-Mart and deliberately targeting competitors to destroy them and make communities dependent on them for a vital service (and yes, it is a fact backed by evidence that Wal-Mart did this and did this intentionally), but it doesn't really make a good argument for them as good guys, either.

I'd forgotten about those, but they both suffer from being mostly tell, and from not presenting a particularly strong case. Both of them amount to saying "SDC acts like most big businesses act when they get away with it", which in the real world generally does not result in a large terrorist organization repeatedly attacking you. Neither of those even explicitly references mistreatment of faunus. This whole topic reminds me of Matt the Mammoth's parodic recap:

The White Fang's behavior would make sense if this was, you know, the actual reality of the series, rather than a silly parody. Though the parody also highlights to me how so far the suffering of Faunus has existed almost entirely off-screen, or in oblique mentions or not-mentions. So fanfic authors both seriously (and unseriously) have to write in those offscreen faunus screams.

Regency · Dec 5, 2016

Ya know, Nerx from SB pointed out how similar Menagerie architecture is to RL Indonesian (Batak and Sunda). Considering we're just Northwest from Australia too (and Menagerie is sorta but not wholly Remnant Australia). So I went searching for similarity.

sauce

Zam · Dec 5, 2016

firefossil said:
I'd forgotten about those, but they both suffer from being mostly tell, and from not presenting a particularly strong case. Both of them amount to saying "SDC acts like most big businesses act when they get away with it", which in the real world generally does not result in a large terrorist organization repeatedly attacking you. Neither of those even explicitly references mistreatment of faunus. This whole topic reminds me of Matt the Mammoth's parodic recap:

I feel its important to remember that the SDC are not solely responsible for the White Fang's turn to violence, they're just a very good target. As to not seeing it, I do agree more could be done to demonstrate it, a new report about a Dust mine collapsing due to shoddy work and the cheap Faunus labour dying because of it would be really useful. However I feel its also worth noting that a lot of the stuff big corporations do in RL probably would cause violent revolutions, if the people in question could get the necessary resources to fight them.

Hykal94 · Dec 5, 2016

Regency said:
Ya know, Nerx from SB pointed out how similar Menagerie architecture is to RL Indonesian (Batak and Sunda). Considering we're just Northwest from Australia too (and Menagerie is sorta but not wholly Remnant Australia). So I went searching for similarity.

sauce

sauce

sauce

Is that a house on stilts?

Then it must be fantasy SE Asia.

I approve.

firefossil · Dec 5, 2016

Zam said:
I feel its important to remember that the SDC are not solely responsible for the White Fang's turn to violence, they're just a very good target. As to not seeing it, I do agree more could be done to demonstrate it, a new report about a Dust mine collapsing due to shoddy work and the cheap Faunus labour dying because of it would be really useful. However I feel its also worth noting that a lot of the stuff big corporations do in RL probably would cause violent revolutions, if the people in question could get the necessary resources to fight them.

The thing is, they've spent a lot of time on the faunus subplot... except almost all the on-screen time and most of the worst deeds go to the White Fang, not their opponents. Most of the worst deeds done to the Faunus are in turn off-screen text-dumps about events in the distant past. Along with Sun's attitude this leaves the impression that the White Fang's current attitude is a massive overreaction.

Redium · Dec 5, 2016

firefossil said:
The thing is, they've spent a lot of time on the faunus subplot... except almost all the on-screen time and most of the worst deeds go to the White Fang, not their opponents. Most of the worst deeds done to the Faunus are in turn off-screen text-dumps about events in the distant past. Along with Sun's attitude this leaves the impression that the White Fang's current attitude is a massive overreaction.

It could be the White Fang's current reactions are out of line compared to their past and what's actually occuring. Originally, the Fang were a peaceful organization and did serve a legitimate purpose. Some shopkeepers refused Faunus service, the SDC and other large megacorporations generally shitting on Faunus, or even protesting people like Cardin. Faunus got crapped on, and having a large, overarching civil rights organization makes sense.

The issue is, now the White Fang has new people taking the reigns. People like Sienna, Blake and Adam who've grown up in the culture of the Fang, constantly fighting against oppression, seeming to see it every where. They've become self-radicalized. Nothing was getting done, the White Fang was constantly pushing Faunus rights, enforcing their own narrative that some people bought it heart and soul. Every cause seemed to be the end of the world and it was your last possible chance to fix it because that gets people out, it makes them protest and it makes them vote.

Blake did abandon the White Fang, but she went a lot further than her father. She was, at least, involved in a hijacking and potentially multi-million lein theft. Meanwhile, her father, as the previous leader, was stated to be basically peaceful. After Ghira stepped down, and Sienna took power, the Fang have become more and more openly radical. That was the tipping point. Sienna's rise to power allowed other more violent and radical people to seize more control in the organization and take more violent action. Cinder's infusion of cash, Dust and military-grade ordinance gave Adam just enough resources to put his violence into action.

Adam used to be a simple operative like Blake, but managed to force out his old boss and take command of the Valeish White Fang. He's technically 'rogue', but there's a lot of diffuse but entrenched support, like the two White Fang representatives that showed up in episode 5.

As an aside, Blake's parentage slightly confuses me. Was Adam actually abusing the daughter of the closest thing the Faunus species has to a king? Ghira was not only the former leader of the White Fang, which likely means he likely still has a huge amount of pull in the organization, but he's chief of Menagerie's major port city, the largest collection of commerce and warm bodies the Faunus have? He's one of the White Fang's most critical supports and influential backers. Given he seems to care about his daughter, he almost certainly kept in contact before the fall of Beacon's CCT made it impossible. Blake isn't exactly subtle in her fear of Adam.

At this point, I'm not sure if the lack of onscreen Faunus discrimination is simply poor storytelling on Roosterteeth's part or the set up for a vicious subversion of social movements. Actually, with Salem working with the White Fang and effectively astroturfing the most violent and radical segments of the White Fang, it puts me in the mind of the Republicans and the Tea Party. That would be deeply ironic if that's what they're going for.

Zam · Dec 5, 2016

firefossil said:
The thing is, they've spent a lot of time on the faunus subplot... except almost all the on-screen time and most of the worst deeds go to the White Fang, not their opponents. Most of the worst deeds done to the Faunus are in turn off-screen text-dumps about events in the distant past. Along with Sun's attitude this leaves the impression that the White Fang's current attitude is a massive overreaction.

You do know that the attempted relocation to Menagerie was within the last 80 years right? I'd hardly call that the distant past. I do agree that we need to see more of the discrimination Faunus face on screen, though in regards to Sun he comes from Vacuo which is a noted exception.

firefossil · Dec 5, 2016

Redium said:
Adam used to be a simple operative like Blake, but managed to force out his old boss and take command of the Valeish White Fang. He's technically 'rogue', but there's a lot of diffuse but entrenched support, like the two White Fang representatives that showed up in episode 5.

As an aside, Blake's parentage slightly confuses me. Was Adam actually abusing the daughter of the closest thing the Faunus species has to a king? Ghira was not only the former leader of the White Fang, which likely means he likely still has a huge amount of pull in the organization, but he's chief of Menagerie's major port city, the largest collection of commerce and warm bodies the Faunus have? He's one of the White Fang's most critical supports and influential backers. Given he seems to care about his daughter, he almost certainly kept in contact before the fall of Beacon's CCT made it impossible. Blake isn't exactly subtle in her fear of Adam.

Overall the episode's reveal doesn't even come close to making sense with what we already knew about Blake and the White Fang.

Zam · Dec 5, 2016

I feel people may be underestimating the level of manipulation and the huge impacts that abuse can have, as well as how it can be hidden and, well its hard to explain but "be worked up to" meaning that Adam would not have "started" abusing Blake by striking her or censoring whatever information she got to hear.

It'd have started smaller, it would have likely been done in ways where he tried to make it 'her' fault which on some level Blake almost certainly ended up internalising and given Adam's rank (Out ranking the WF Lieutenant in command of the Vale camp) Adam's more psychotic behaviour not being called out likely led Blake to believe it was accepted, possibly even by her family.

Also I feel people may be assuming too much in regards to Ghira's influence and power, he's the chieftain of what is essentially a decently sized port town and maybe a few other villages, he stepped down from leading the WF and Sienna & a council seemingly took over and that means they likely control the majority of fighters, informants and means of handling information given I doubt Menagerie is covered by the CCT.

Put simply, we don't know how much influence, real or left over due to respect/loyalty Blake's parents actually had; the fox dudes call him your grace but are also working with Adam, for all we know the WF have been cutting away at his supports and influences from the outside going in very slowly chipping away at information and influence.

skaianDestiny · Dec 6, 2016

Putting aside whatever the fuck happened in RWBY this week, I love this redesign for Ruby.

Artist comments in the source.

Feng Lengshun · Dec 6, 2016

Zam said:
I feel coming up with theories and using them to discredit the creators isn't exactly fair, sorry if it seems I'm mis-representing you that isn't my intent. Though I do agree that being clearer on Faunus mistreatment would be better.

No, no, you got it the opposite. What I feel is wrong is when people came up with theories, theories that aren't 100% ironclad in its logic and evidence from the show itself, and then credits the creator for it. Like pulling a Game/Film Theorist and then say "This is what the creators meant/wanted guys, how thoughtful!"

Everyone has their theories, but interesting as they can be, that's the fan's interpretation, not what the creators themselves stated and shown within the work. I'm a big believer of the Death of the Author and this is just another part of it. I also got my own theory and understanding based on what was shown but it runs opposite to the narrative that they had been selling in regards to the Faunus and Menagerie in the previous seasons, which can be interesting but has me concerned. But that's a separate topic and point from my feelings in regards to theories, though it does contribute to what I feel about the execution of the Faunus-Menagerie issue and the episode.

Zam said:
How exactly is a presumably small family owned store meant to keep up with a multi-national monolithic organisation that has been noted for being shady?

Differentiation, service, convenience, price, programs, etc. Give a friendlier service, be closer to the customer, be cheaper, have some loyalty programs, be more moral, sell some ideologies, go slow and steady, adjusting expectation, scale of operation, and just adapt. Or just give up and submit - if you can't beat them then join them.

I think that what happened to Flynt's dad was something along the lines of Luxottica and Oakley's dispute. But in any case, there are many ways small business can stand up and compete with big businesses. It just requires creativity and business savvy - see Snapchat's rise against the big boys Facebook and Twitter. It really isn't impossible, especially since as you said, it's a monolithic organization notable for being shady - that's one of the things that you can exploit like DuckDuckGo did and why people are aiming for Green company awards.

Regency said:
Ya know, Nerx from SB pointed out how similar Menagerie architecture is to RL Indonesian (Batak and Sunda). Considering we're just Northwest from Australia too (and Menagerie is sorta but not wholly Remnant Australia). So I went searching for similarity.

sauce

sauce

sauce

Don't forget Tongkonan from Tanah Toraja too.

Zam · Dec 6, 2016

Feng Lengshun said:
No, no, you got it the opposite. What I feel is wrong is when people came up with theories, theories that aren't 100% ironclad in its logic and evidence from the show itself, and then credits the creator for it. Like pulling a Game/Film Theorist and then say "This is what the creators meant/wanted guys, how thoughtful!"

Everyone has their theories, but interesting as they can be, that's the fan's interpretation, not what the creators themselves stated and shown within the work. I'm a big believer of the Death of the Author and this is just another part of it. I also got my own theory and understanding based on what was shown but it runs opposite to the narrative that they had been selling in regards to the Faunus and Menagerie in the previous seasons, which can be interesting but has me concerned. But that's a separate topic and point from my feelings in regards to theories, though it does contribute to what I feel about the execution of the Faunus-Menagerie issue and the episode.

If we're just talking about the narrative the creators seem to be overtly telling us then the World of Remnant basically saying "Faunus have been crapped on throughout all known history and Menagerie was a dick move" feels fairly clear to me, regardless of other issues elsewhere in the show. Not trying to be rude here, sorry if it seems that way.

Feng Lengshun said:
Differentiation, service, convenience, price, programs, etc. Give a friendlier service, be closer to the customer, be cheaper, have some loyalty programs, be more moral, sell some ideologies, go slow and steady, adjusting expectation, scale of operation, and just adapt. Or just give up and submit - if you can't beat them then join them.

I think that what happened to Flynt's dad was something along the lines of Luxottica and Oakley's dispute. But in any case, there are many ways small business can stand up and compete with big businesses. It just requires creativity and business savvy - see Snapchat's rise against the big boys Facebook and Twitter. It really isn't impossible, especially since as you said, it's a monolithic organization notable for being shady - that's one of the things that you can exploit like DuckDuckGo did and why people are aiming for Green company awards.

None of those things seem like stuff that a big business couldn't also do just better due to having more money and surplus, and as has been noted the SDC aren't just big they are also shady and have "partners" and practises which are "questionable".

I'm not saying its impossible for a small business to succeed despite the existence of a bigger competitor, my issue is with the narrative of "Its all the small business fault if they fail" even if their competitor has a dozen more advantages and is pretty much said to be corrupt by its own heiress. It feels like saying "Well if the ant didn't want to be crushed it should have been bigger."

thesevenwielder · Dec 6, 2016

Small family coffeeshops exist despite the presence of Starbucks. In both large and small towns.

Feng Lengshun · Dec 6, 2016

Zam said:
If we're just talking about the narrative the creators seem to be overtly telling us then the World of Remnant basically saying "Faunus have been crapped on throughout all known history and Menagerie was a dick move" feels fairly clear to me, regardless of other issues elsewhere in the show. Not trying to be rude here, sorry if it seems that way.

The show has been saying that, but inside the show itself... what I've seen goes contrary to that narrative. Hence my confusion and general WTF sentiment. Sure, Blake and WoR has been saying that throughout the show, but what I do see points to the contrary.

Zam said:
None of those things seem like stuff that a big business couldn't also do just better due to having more money and surplus, and as has been noted the SDC aren't just big they are also shady and have "partners" and practises which are "questionable".

I'm not saying its impossible for a small business to succeed despite the existence of a bigger competitor, my issue is with the narrative of "Its all the small business fault if they fail" even if their competitor has a dozen more advantages and is pretty much said to be corrupt by its own heiress. It feels like saying "Well if the ant didn't want to be crushed it should have been bigger."

I have a different view on business management which basically boils down to "The onus is on you doing well, not the other party doing less well than you."

The SDC is big and shady, I'll take that at face value but what it reads to me is that they have bigger resources and better capability of utilizing that resources, if you put the ethics and morality asides. At the most basic level, businesses exist to make more money for themselves and in that regards, corporate responsibilities and ethics are just things that the government and public demands out of them and they don't have much choice to follow if they want to make money.

The SDC is big and shady, but they're making money. They are doing things right in regards to their function as profit-making entities that is the core function of a business. The onus is then on Flynt's dad to adapt to their policies and strategies with his own. The SDC's shady strategies might be the one that did him in, but is the one that is making his own strategies and policies. That SDC did better and won in the end isn't their fault, though I will also say that that doesn't make it Flynt's dad's fault either. What I dispute is blaming the other party for doing better and winning. Disputing their underhandedness, immorality, and lack of ethics, that's fine. Whining about losing? No.

Basically, I believe in this:

Which should probably explain my stance on Faunus-Menagerie as well. I don't think it's completely right but I still don't think that whining about losing and blaming the other party is a correct or productive action, and hence why I have scorn to those who does it - in this case the Faunus and Flynt.

RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

Good Civ Inspector

Z-Program Researcher

PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)

Z-Program Researcher

Patron Librarian

Text Wall

Immaculate Blooming Lotus

PFP by vanathema (previously yubishines)

Orange Estus Kitteh

Z-Program Researcher

Banned Forever

Z-Program Researcher