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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Zam said:
    A really good post covering some of the bad takes around the JL-RWBY crossover.
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    Almost the entirety of that post is just... Wrong...

    1 - First of all, the fact that RWBY gets crossovers does not make it good, or even popular. The DC crossover is happening because RT is under the same company that DC is. They belong to the same corporation, the crossover seems to be happening because RWBY does not have enough popularity to keep itself upfloat, and DC is now attempted to be used to get new blood into the fandom.

    This is further proven by the OP even mentioning that the BlazBlue crossover happened because the director is a fan of RWBY, which is not an indication of the popularity of RWBY as a whole, but indicative that some people in high positions are fans. Its like saying that Sofia Coppola was popular when she was cast in the Godfather movies, when in reality she was cast because she was the directors daughter.

    2 - The OP is making fun and calling people "idiots" for thinking that RWBY production is desperate. I have to note that it is extremelly staggering for me to see people praise RWBY as this amazing and popular show and how people hate it too much, and how its succesfull, and then return to reality and see that the newest season of RWBY was sold to CR as a timed exclusive, and see the people involved with its production beg people not to pirate RWBY Volume 9 and how Volume 10 has not even been greelit yet.

    These are not signs of a company or a show that are doing well. Crossovers are almost never good for already established titles. All signs around RWBY show that its failing. The crossover is happening to get new blood into the show, the shows timed exclusivity is sold to CR (At the expense of RT first).

    Its just... Why do people do this? Why do people seemingly ignore the reality of RWBY to pretend that its doing amazingly well, when even the creators of the show are admitting that the show is in dire straits.

    3 - I think the post in question kind of proves just how silly the whole label of RWDE is and how meaningless it is. There are so many accusations made at this supposed "RWDE" group, that they want the show to fail, that they are the ones who hate the show and seeing its success (Which is, as i said before, false in arguments 1-2).

    In reality, most people criticizing these crossovers are not even RWBY fans. Right now, most of the people complaining about the RWBY/DC crossover are the DC fans on twitter, because as i saw, many of them do not want DC to be associated with RWBY. There are also many fans of RWBY who dislike this crossover because the creators admitted that it is partially a reason for why V9 was delayed, and there are always concerns of crunch in such an environment, especially when talking about RT.

    The same goes for BlazBlue, most of the people complaining about that Crossover were.... BlazBlue fans. They also wanted to have no association with RWBY.

    And this is a common trend in various animation/anime and their adjacent fandoms. Many of them do not want to be associated with RWBY, partially because parts of the RWBY fanbase have made statements making fun of anime, saying things like RWBY being superior to anime etc. Which does not garner positive rapport with other fandoms to say the least. This was further proven when Ice Queendom was coming out and i think in a trailer Blakes upper body jiggled at one point? Which then resulted in some RWBY fans trashing anime, and then going into very uncomfortable territory of talking about Japan and trash-talking Japan and its creators which was.... Not great...

    It feels like the entire post in question is filled with outright non-truths or is throwing around accusations at a faceless/nameless group of people.
     
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    tygerbright said:
    Heat cycles, Ozpin/Torchwich/ creeping on people despite having a position of power on multiple occasions, everything with Vernal, and the whole love-your-abuser vibes from the Velvet and Cardin ship.

    And there are characters getting changed and then there is blatant character bashing like with Weiss basically being turned into a racist who thinks Fanus are subhuman for volume one and Yang going into a panic attack over a tunnel.

    If you want more general criticism a lot of the decisions are just plainly nonsensical, for instance, the whole Torchwich thing. Celtic literally went no cop-outs to save anyone, and cops-out to save his favorite character and push him into a leading role which also breaks the rules of the setting. Also just going full stations of canon is the last thing you ever want to do when making a massive AU that diverges from before even the word go, it just is creatively bankrupt.
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    Some of these criticisms seem to be quite fair, im not going to lie, im still in the process of going through the Rewrite myself, so i cannot fully comment on it in detail just yet.

    Also, Matrix, i have said none of the things you are now sarcastically claiming, could you please stop with these sarcastic snipes that achieve nothing?
     
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    No, I'm done. I'm not going to bother trying to explain to you why a man in his late twenties at best making leering comments at naked teenage girls is creepy and disturbing, why making that a main character of a show where most of the main cast is teenage girls is worrying, and why your defense of it with the line 'they're (mostly) legal' is disgusting. I'll end up getting a threadban at best.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    No, I'm done. I'm not going to bother trying to explain to you why a man in his late twenties at best making leering comments at naked teenage girls is creepy and disturbing, why making that a main character of a show where most of the main cast is teenage girls is worrying, and why your defense of it with the line 'they're (mostly) legal' is disgusting. I'll end up getting a threadban at best.
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    You do not need to explain anything, just dont misrepresent my statements. That is all i ask. Even now you seem to be misrepresenting what i said, for what reason i cannot say.
     
    Staff Notice: "Please refrain from misrepresenting what another user is saying in the future."
    Dextixer said:
    You do not need to explain anything, just dont misrepresent my statements. That is all i ask. Even now you seem to be misrepresenting what i said, for what reason i cannot say.
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    I mean that's literally what you said. You said 'most of them are legal I guess so it's all fine!'. Ignoring the power dynamics, the way the scene is presented, and the fact that the characters are barely over eighteen and Roman is much older and also has tried to kill a number of them in the past. And I say this as someone who ships a number of hashtag problematic things - but I don't deny that they're problematic, which is what you were doing. If you think the scene of Roman perving on the girls in a bath really adds something the original RWBY was missing, sure, fine, that's your opinion, but don't lie to us.
     
    hellgodsrus said:
    I mean that's literally what you said. You said 'most of them are legal I guess so it's all fine!'. Ignoring the power dynamics, the way the scene is presented, and the fact that the characters are barely over eighteen and Roman is much older and also has tried to kill a number of them in the past. And I say this as someone who ships a number of hashtag problematic things - but I don't deny that they're problematic, which is what you were doing. If you think the scene of Roman perving on the girls in a bath really adds something the original RWBY was missing, sure, fine, that's your opinion, but don't lie to us.
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    No, no, you don't get it. He just recommended something without actually knowing it's contents, see.
    Dextixer said:
    Some of these criticisms seem to be quite fair, im not going to lie, im still in the process of going through the Rewrite myself, so i cannot fully comment on it in detail just yet.
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    He can't be held responsible for recommending and defending something bad because he never actually vetted it outside of it Fixing RWBY.tm
     
    hellgodsrus said:
    I mean that's literally what you said. You said 'most of them are legal I guess so it's all fine!'. Ignoring the power dynamics, the way the scene is presented, and the fact that the characters are barely over eighteen and Roman is much older and also has tried to kill a number of them in the past. And I say this as someone who ships a number of hashtag problematic things - but I don't deny that they're problematic, which is what you were doing. If you think the scene of Roman perving on the girls in a bath really adds something the original RWBY was missing, sure, fine, that's your opinion, but don't lie to us.
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    Once again, i never said anything about that scene being problematic or not. But please, do keep lying about what i have said or meant.

    Because what i said was completely different from what you have, and was said in a certain context and responding to certain claims.

    It would certainly be nice if people simply treated these conversations in good faith, instead of trying to demean me at every turn over things i have not said, but people seem to make up regardless. Feels like im being targeted constantly, and it is tiring instead of having discussions to contantly need to defend myaelf against new lies and false accusations.

    Evwryone can literally go back in the conversation an just read what is actually being said. But for some reason its more important to create things that were NEVER said by me, for what?
     
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    Dextixer said:
    Once again, i never said anything about that scene being problematic or not. But please, do keep lying about what i have said or meant.

    Because what i said was completely different from what you have, and was said in a certain context and responding to certain claims.

    It would certainly be nice if people simply treated these conversations in good faith, instead of trying to demean me at every turn over things i have not said, but people seem to make up regardless. Feels like im being targeted constantly, and it is tiring instead of having discussions to contantly need to defend myaelf against new lies and false accusations.

    Evwryone can literally go back in the conversation an just read what is actually being said. But for some reason its more important to create things that were NEVER said by me, for what?
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    It's hard not to interpret your posts that way. Matrix pointed out that the scene involves a grown man perving on teenage girls and your response was, verbatim -
    Isnt almost the entire cast besides Oscar/Ruby, adults?
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    Now, you might have meant that just as a genuine, real question (ignoring the fact that 18-19 is still teenage), but in the context of Matrix's post, it sounds like you're defending the rewrite on the grounds that the scene is okay because they're not minors. This might not have been your intention, but it's what the post sounded like. This is what you said, whether it's what you meant is a different question. So what did you mean by this? What was it you hoped this statement would come across as? I'm genuinely curious.
     
    hellgodsrus said:
    It's hard not to interpret your posts that way. Matrix pointed out that the scene involves a grown man perving on teenage girls and your response was, verbatim -

    Now, you might have meant that just as a genuine, real question (ignoring the fact that 18-19 is still teenage), but in the context of Matrix's post, it sounds like you're defending the rewrite on the grounds that the scene is okay because they're not minors. This might not have been your intention, but it's what the post sounded like. This is what you said, whether it's what you meant is a different question. So what did you mean by this? What was it you hoped this statement would come across as? I'm genuinely curious.
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    What i meant was EXACTLY what i asked, it was meant to be a question. There is a tendency by some people in the RWBY community to often intentionally use language that implies the protagonists of the show to be underage, usuqlly for attacks.

    As such, i asked that question. No, it is not meant to excuse Roman, it is not meant to defend his actions. I simply can be a but pedantic with claims that are made because i have encountered them in the past.

    If i worded it poorly, then i worded it poorly, when i do nit plan out my posts my phrasings and points of focus can be weird, not being a native english speaker can also cause problems.

    In such a case one can simply ask what i have meant instead of organizing a barrage of attacks telling me what i have said.

    Is that enough of an explanation? I hope so, because i personally do not wish to have another 24 hours of people attacking me based on what they think i have said.

    What you quoted is what i have said. What i have NOT said is that Romans actions were good, or acceptable, or ANYTHING of the sort. And yet i was still accused of saying that. It is genuinely distressing at this point just how many times my words in this thread have been straing up lied about and misinterpreted juat for a chance to attack or make fun of me. Genuinely feels fucking shitty.
     
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    Dextixer said:
    What you quoted is what i have said. What i have NOT said is that Romans actions were good, or acceptable, or ANYTHING of the sort. And yet i was still accused of saying that. It is genuinely distressing at this point just how many times my words in this thread have been straing up lied about and misinterpreted juat for a chance to attack or make fun of me. Genuinely feels fucking shitty
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    The short version is that, generally, if you* give a recommendation for something it's expected that you think it's worth recommending. Then you** keep defending the story and rewrite it after finding that something in it is that is... kinda suspect. So the implication of the recommendation itself is that you think a grownass man creeping on teenagers is perfectly fine content to have in RWBY.

    *general you
    **personal you
     
    Mahrac said:
    The short version is that, generally, if you* give a recommendation for something it's expected that you think it's worth recommending. Then you** keep defending the story and rewrite it after finding that something in it is that is... kinda suspect. So the implication of the recommendation itself is that you think a grownass man creeping on teenagers is perfectly fine content to have in RWBY.

    *general you
    **personal you
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    By that logic i am fine with shoving a weapon into my brothers face. Because that happens in RWBY. And i still reccomend RWBY and like it as a show.

    Its very bad logic that if someone recommends a work that they like or approve the entirety of it. Almost all artistic works have qualities that can be disliked or considered to be problematic, yet the work itself still have value.

    I would like to ask you, would you apply the same logic/standard to RWBY fans who reccomend the show? That they approve of everything in it?

    Because by your own proposed logic, many RWBY fans would end up approving of things that are.... definitely not desireable.
     
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    Dextixer said:
    By that logic i am fine with shoving a weapon into my brothers face. Because that happens in RWBY. And i still reccomend RWBY and like it as a show.
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    Don't most brothers do that? I have some friends I used to roughhouse with all the time, sometimes with bats and hockeysticks, and we still get along. /lighthearted

    More seriously, yes fiction is fiction and it follows lighter rules than reality... but the thing about fantasy is that people... tend to fantasies about it. About fighting back the Great Evil, being a badass, about being able to tell a moron they're being a moron with force... and in the case of this rewrite being able to perv on teen girls in the bath and (some of) those girls having heat cycles.

    Its very bad logic that if someone recommends a work that they like or approve the entirety of it. Almost all artistic works have qualities that can be disliked or considered to be problematic, yet the work itself still have value.

    I would like to ask you, would you apply the same logic/standard to RWBY fans who reccomend the show? That they approve of everything in it?
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    No, you just said that it was an improved version of the show. And that carries over the implication that adding adults perving on teens is somehow an improvement. That including it in a glorified script outline is somehow an addition that the show needed.
     
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    Mahrac said:
    Don't most brothers do that? I have some friends I used to roughhouse with all the time, sometimes with bats and hockeysticks, and we still get along. /lighthearted

    More seriously, yes fiction is fiction and it follows lighter rules than reality... but the thing about fantasy is that people... tend to fantasies about it. About fighting back the Great Evil, being a badass, about being able to tell a moron they're being a moron with force... and in the case of this rewrite being able to perv on teen girls in the bath and (some of) those girls having heat cycles.


    No, you just said that it was an improved version of the show. And that carries over the implication that adding adults perving on teens is somehow an improvement. That including it in a glorified script outline is somehow an addition that the show needed.
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    IF you state that the author of the rewrite fantasises about those things, you can take it up with him. As a fan of WH40k, let me tell you, i do not fantasize of being in that setting very much. I do not think you can make such widespread claims about what ones consumption of media says about them.

    Just because something is "improved" does not mean that every aspect of it is improved or great. Imagine a mod to a game that makes the game run faster, but everything in the game costs more. Even if the drawback is not desireable and bad, does not mean that the mod itself is not an improvement as a whole.

    I think that the rewrite improves some things, others are neutral, and other are bad (like the heat cycles).

    This feels like you are trying to levy the same accusation as before, just in a more roundabout way and with logically unsound arguments if i may say so.

    Even though i have already stated my position multiple times, you still seem intent on hoisting upon me opinions that i do not hold, why?
     
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    Mahrac said:
    Don't most brothers do that? I have some friends I used to roughhouse with all the time, sometimes with bats and hockeysticks, and we still get along. /lighthearted
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    My brother literally dented my head with a coaster when I was like thirteen cos we were roughhousing and he underestimated the power a coaster could carry when used as a shuriken, beyond bringing it up as a gag everyone now again I never think on it.
    Mahrac said:
    and (some of) those girls having heat cycles.
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    and of bigotted bullies getting to date the victims of their bigoted bullying.
     
    Dextixer said:
    This feels like you are trying to levy the same accusation as before, just in a more roundabout way and with logically unsound arguments if i may say so.

    Even though i have already stated my position multiple times, you still seem intent on hoisting upon me opinions that i do not hold, why?
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    I'm levying nothing, simply trying to explain why you received the response you did.

    Vet your rec and if there's something you don't like in it mention it upfront and you probably won't get the accusations. Say 'this is something you might like' and it's going to be assumed you're neutral to positive on everything in it.

    Edit; and if you feel like something requires too much explaining... it's probably a good idea not to recommend it.
     
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    Also trying to justify Roman perving on the girls with "Well most of them barring one are of age, so its fine" doesn't exactly disabuse others from the assumption that the one defending/reccing the work might approve of that.
     
    Zam said:
    Also trying to justify Roman perving on the girls with "Well most of them barring one are of age, so its fine" doesn't exactly disabuse others from the assumption that the one defending/reccing the work might approve of that.
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    I would think not defending something you profess to have a problem with would go hand-in-hand with mentioning that you don't like it upfront, but yeah that too.
     
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    Zam said:
    Also trying to justify Roman perving on the girls with "Well most of them barring one are of age, so its fine" doesn't exactly disabuse others from the assumption that the one defending/reccing the work might approve of that.
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    I did NOT do that. How many times will i have to say that? Or is this accusations going to be repeated over and over again non-stop?

    I can understand your point Mahrac i find in unreasonable. I find the requirement of saying all things you dislike with a work while recommending it, or else you will get accused of heinous things to be heavily unreasonable and only there as a justification for harassment.

    Because from my personal experiences, prefacing ones statements rarely works when people want to misrepresent you. Its just a shield to hide behind, a thin justification for peoples harassment that they can say is "deserved".

    This interaction is proof of that, despite saying multiple times that i dislike faunus heat, and do not approve of Romans actions. It does not matter. Because what i say does not matter, my actual opinions do not matter.

    What matters is what people can accuse me of.
     
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    Okay, I've never tried to experience this "fix" of RWBY (how godawful pretentious is that, anyway?), but when in the story is Roman supposed to be doing this stuff? Because at the beginning of the show (you know, when all of the interaction with Roman occurs aside from Ruby's fight on the airship), ALL of the mains are minors.
     
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    Erinyes said:
    Okay, I've never tried to experience this "fix" of RWBY (how godawful pretentious is that, anyway?), but when in the story is Roman supposed to be doing this stuff? Because at the beginning of the show (you know, when all of the interaction with Roman occurs aside from Ruby's fight on the airship), ALL of the mains are minors.
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    Roman takes the place of Oscar in the fic so uhhh sometime around V4, I think?
     
    Dextixer said:
    I did NOT do that. How many times will i have to say that? Or is this accusations going to be repeated over and over again non-stop?

    I can understand your point Mahrac i find in unreasonable. I find the requirement of saying all things you dislike with a work while recommending it, or else you will get accused of heinous things to be heavily unreasonable and only there as a justification for harassment.

    Because from my personal experiences, prefacing ones statements rarely works when people want to misrepresent you. Its just a shield to hide behind, a thin justification for peoples harassment that they can say is "deserved".

    This interaction is proof of that, despite saying multiple times that i dislike faunus heat, and do not approve of Romans actions. It does not matter. Because what i say does not matter, my actual opinions do not matter.

    What matters is what people can accuse me of.
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    I'm just going to be direct and ask you, if you don't like it, haven't watched it, and hate the core ideas behind it, why in the world would you bring it up in the first place? And recommend people watch it? Your argument and purpose for that argument make no sense.
     
    Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive, or, "I strongly recommend that you consider how you interact with users in the thread in the future, because this whole argument completely disrupted the thread."
    tygerbright said:
    I'm just going to be direct and ask you, if you don't like it, haven't watched it, and hate the core ideas behind it, why in the world would you bring it up in the first place? And recommend people watch it? Your argument and purpose for that argument make no sense.
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    Im sorry, but i have to ask, does anyone bother reading what i write or is everything i say then recreated anew?

    I like the rewrite in GENERAL, i have watched SOME of it since i am watching it from the start, and i hate SOME ideas from it.

    And i have said these things DIRECTLY. Im sorry, but at this point i have to say that this is just intentional. My words are literally ignored to be replaced with whatever you find convenient, can you please STOP? I beg of you, genuinely. I just dont understand what else to do? Do i have to go on my knees at this point to get people to read what i actually write instead of what you imagine i have written?

    Im just going to directly ask you, do ANY of you read what i actually write? Or can i write literally ANYTHING here and you will create your own interpretations? Because this is never ending and maddening. If you are doing this intentionally to either drive me out or make me lose my patience and then report me to the mods so i can get banned, just say it.
     
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