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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • ... Wow, even for you, that's an awful lot of blaming Ruby for Ironwood's actions, blaming Ruby for caring about civilian lives, and blaming Ruby for the actions of the literal enemy.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    ... Wow, even for you, that's an awful lot of blaming Ruby for Ironwood's actions, blaming Ruby for caring about civilian lives, and blaming Ruby for the actions of the literal enemy.
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    ... That's what you took out of that?

    I was trying to explain that Ruby was trying to make the best out of a bad scenario where everything was just going to shit at every passing moment but it just ended up being worse and in her attempt to save one of her friends from dying, it blew up in her face and she still died anyways.

    And then I explained why her finding out that Penny died would break her.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    ... That's what you took out of that?

    I was trying to explain that Ruby was trying to make the best out of a bad scenario where everything was just going to shit at every passing moment but it just ended up being worse and in her attempt to save one of her friends from dying, it blew up in her face and she still died anyways.
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    Yes, because you spent the whole time blaming her for others actions at best.

    Psyga315 said:
    Ruby believes they can save the people of Mantle if they could just hold out a little longer and when Ironwood wants none of that, she immediately turns on him and the consequences are that she and the rest of her crew are now wanted criminals.
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    Psyga315 said:
    Yang bringing up how they're only in this mess because of her decision (even darker if you remember that Ironwood's reason for distrusting RWBY in the first place was because of Yang's decision to help Blake leak information to Robyn or that she half-truthed her way around Raven which led to them needing to dump the Relic at Atlas in the first place).
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    Psyga315 said:
    And so, left with no other option and little time to make a decision, Ruby uses the Staff of Creation to save Penny's life. Knowing this would cause Atlas to fall and kill thousands, however, she makes a hasty, last-minute plan to evacuate people to the safest Kingdom she knows without factoring in several things all while forgetting that a certain blood thirsty Maiden is out there with the Relic of Knowledge being stolen moments prior to the Cane Nuke (I do not think the group would neglect to mention this happening, but then again, given Yang and Raven, i wouldn't be surprised if they left out details like the Relic being stolen or Cinder being ordered to bust out Watts and hunt down Penny).
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    Psyga315 said:
    The whole reason Ruby did this evacuation in the first place is so that Penny would be saved without needing to expend the lives of Mantle and Atlas. To do the optimal "everyone lives" scenario that Ironwood sternly believed doesn't exist. That was the entire reason she went against his plan in the first place, because she genuinely believed she could risk the fall and fight for every life.

    And in the end, she was wrong.
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    Psyga315 said:
    And then she finds that Penny, the person she risked it all for, ended up dying in the evacuation. The one she wanted to save most of all, to the point where she outright toppled an entire Kingdom for her sake, died.
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    You started by blaming her for Ironwoods treason, her for giving him a chance in the first place, her for using the staff of creation at all, as though it wouldn't have been used to evacuate the civilians anyway, claim that she destroyed Atlas to save Penny, and blamed her for Cinder managing to attack the evacuation effort.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    ... That's what you took out of that?

    I was trying to explain that Ruby was trying to make the best out of a bad scenario where everything was just going to shit at every passing moment but it just ended up being worse and in her attempt to save one of her friends from dying, it blew up in her face and she still died anyways.

    And then I explained why her finding out that Penny died would break her.
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    I don't know how you do your maths, but for me "a significant portion of the population and army of Mantle and Atlas" > 0 survivors.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Yes, because you spent the whole time blaming her for others actions at best.

    You started by blaming her for Ironwoods treason, her for giving him a chance in the first place, her for using the staff of creation at all, as though it wouldn't have been used to evacuate the civilians anyway, claim that she destroyed Atlas to save Penny, and blamed her for Cinder managing to attack the evacuation effort.
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    The show makes it clear that Ruby feels some of the blame (part of that whole tea scene has her be like "how did it come to this" not to mention her doubting herself) which is what I was trying to allude to. Especially with Yang also blaming Ruby for what happened initially. Eventually this is gonna come to a head and pop.

    The Staff of Creation had the problem of being intrinsically tied to Atlas. If it's used for anything else, Atlas becomes a makeshift colony drop. So, yes, with Ruby using the Staff to save Penny, she was basically going to doom Atlas in the process.
     
    ElMariachi said:
    I don't know how you do your maths, but for me "a significant portion of the population and army of Mantle and Atlas" > 0 survivors.
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    Honestly I never understand the implication that basically everyone didn't get away from 'Critics' cos like... We saw Mantle, we saw Atlas, we saw no people left there save the villains who left or died. Like certainly, shit tons of people died to the Grimm before this and Cinder certainly killed some with her blast ETC, but that seems to be all.

    The idea that they barely evacuated anyone is such a spurious and nonsensical claim based on... What? That Cinder said thousands? We don't even know the two cities populations, thousands could also be hundreds of thousands, she could also just be using thousands to say "Big number" as its often used.

    Its just so much of that "Looking for things to complain about and deliberately misinterpreting events on screen" method of media engagement.
     
    Warning: I would like to remind people that the thread policy has updated.
  • Staff Post
    • i would like to remind people that the thread policy has updated.
    And that policy is very much pinned to the top of the thread. Please keep that in mind, because we've had a few users run afoul of the recent update.

    This is not a place to talk about why an off-site user isn't a good person and the like. If you can't discuss what they're saying without it coming back to how they're a negative influence on the community or something along those lines, then it's better to avoid discussing them at all.
     
  • Staff Post
    • ElMariachi said:
    I don't know how you do your maths, but for me "a significant portion of the population and army of Mantle and Atlas" > 0 survivors.
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    Being entirely clear on that front- the visuals* and in-universe statements we get don't really mesh out with the result of 'a significant portion', especially given the size of Atlas and Mantle. You'd expect like, I dunno, a few million people in those two cities? Maybe a few hundred thousand?

    Meanwhile, Yang goes 'yeah, thousands will be saved'*- and as V8 seems to attempt to back RWBY at every occasion, I'm more inclined to believe that given the entire season and how it was going, that Yang's just right and Atlas and Mantle only had a few thousand people and that they weren't planning on colony-dropping a city onto millions of people while only taking the lucky thousands out.

    *The visuals give a sense of 'thousands' as well when everything goes down and the entirety of RWBY basically all agree that thousands is the correct term to use for the population of Atlas and Mantle. So I guess that Atlas and Mantle combined only had a few thousand people in it ever? Neat.
    Zam said:
    The idea that they barely evacuated anyone is such a spurious and nonsensical claim based on... What? That Cinder said thousands? We don't even know the two cities populations, thousands could also be hundreds of thousands, she could also just be using thousands to say "Big number" as its often used.
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    No, that's based on the visuals from the portals, in which the numbers we see going through and the amount of portals don't really particularly match up with the expectation of 'hundreds of thousands/millions of people streaming through'.

    I usually just attribute it to worldbuilding and visual failings on RWBY's part. But it's understandable as to why people aren't really happy with that as an in-universe explanation.
     
    Abstract Ideas said:
    No, that's based on the visuals from the portals, in which the numbers we see going through and the amount of portals don't really particularly match up with the expectation of 'hundreds of thousands/millions of people streaming through'.

    I usually just attribute it to worldbuilding and visual failings on RWBY's part. But it's understandable as to why people aren't really happy with that as an in-universe explanation.
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    Did anyone actually expect CRWBY, hell any studio to animate literally millions of people or something on that scale and make it comprehensible to our monkey brains? I don't know whether to be amused, bemused or just annoyed by such an absurd notion and total unwillingness to actually engage with a medium; this is "The characters obviously don't shit because we never see it" levels of logic.
     
    Zam said:
    Did anyone actually expect CRWBY, hell any studio to animate literally millions of people or something on that scale and make it comprehensible to our monkey brains? I don't know whether to be amused, bemused or just annoyed by such an absurd notion and total unwillingness to actually engage with a medium; this is "The characters obviously don't shit because we never see it" levels of logic.
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    Not to be that guy, but, uh, it's not actually that hard?

    Don't have it be just the one platform, have either copied models or even images of the core model on both sides, and show it like there are many of the same platform in the void in the distance all leading to similar portals in Vacuo to help split the numbers more.

    Wouldn't take much in the way of resources, just show them far enough away that you can keep them blurry enough to not show much, and you're fine. Toss in a line if you want to of them noting they don't know how many platforms there are in the distance to help keep it vague of just how many to split it by and handwaving that there's 'enough' is easy from that point if they went with that instead.

    It's absolutely just worldbuilding and visual failings on their part. We see a city the size of New York- two, actually- and it's only got a few thousand people per Yang* and Cinder? I mean, like, sure- given V8's entire thing, they're probably right because V8 declared it so- but still a bit of a worldbuilding fail given everything.

    *The other option is to assume that Yang just can't count higher then thousands, which is just a take and a half, let me tell you, or alternatively just have them be portrayed as so callous that it goes against the entire season- so I usually just assume that it's a worldbuilding fail and there's only thousands in Mantle and Atlas because reasons.
     
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    Abstract Ideas said:
    Not to be that guy, but, uh, it's not actually that hard?

    Don't have it be just the one platform, have either copied models or even images of the core model on both sides, and show it like there are many of the same platform in the void in the distance all leading to similar portals in Vacuo to help split the numbers more.

    Wouldn't take much in the way of resources, just show them far enough away that you can keep them blurry enough to not show much, and you're fine. Toss in a line if you want to of them noting they don't know how many platforms there are in the distance to help keep it vague of just how many to split it by and handwaving that there's 'enough' is easy from that point if they went with that instead.

    It's absolutely just worldbuilding and visual failings on their part. We see a city the size of New York- two, actually- and it's only got a few thousand people per Yang* and Cinder? I mean, like, sure- given V8's entire thing, they're probably right because V8 declared it so- but still a bit of a worldbuilding fail given everything.

    *The other option is to assume that Yang just can't count higher then thousands, which is just a take and a half, let me tell you, or alternatively just have them be portrayed as so callous that it goes against the entire season- so I usually just assume that it's a worldbuilding fail and there's only thousands in Mantle and Atlas because reasons.
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    I get the distinct impression you have never actually rendered anything in your life, because let me assure you, its not that easy; hence why studios have massive dedicated systems solely for rendering that run for days on end.

    * Or again, thousands is just an easy default number that people go to when they don't have access to a population sheet an also large portions of the population have recently been slaughtered by an army of murder beasts.
     
    So, on other subjects, since I saw some clips and read some stuff on Witch From Mercury thanks to all the RWBY comparisons made here and on TV Tropes...

    Anyone else see Prospera as basically what happens when you take Raven and Adam and put them in a blender?

    Cause I see them in her and ALL the red flags that come with them.
     
    I do find the whole argument that tons of people died when Atlas fell confusing considering the show went out of it's way to show it was completely empty. Like if they wanted there to be a hint people where left behind, they would have had a few people watching in terror or something. Like this is the episode that had Cinder straight up massacre an entire control room full of people, they would not have shyed away from people being implied crushed. The only people we see in Atlas as it falls are Watts as he burns to death and Ironwood.
     
    Sorry just to belabor a point but in terms of scale an fictional media, the Boiling Isles does no look big enough to sustain its massive population or all the scenes and sets we see in the show. Cos if scale things up to a certain point it becomes white noise to viewers or utterly meaningless and more work for nothing.
    Teen Spirit said:
    I do find the whole argument that tons of people died when Atlas fell confusing considering the show went out of it's way to show it was completely empty. Like if they wanted there to be a hint people where left behind, they would have had a few people watching in terror or something. Like this is the episode that had Cinder straight up massacre an entire control room full of people, they would not have shyed away from people being implied crushed. The only people we see in Atlas as it falls are Watts as he burns to death and Ironwood.
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    Exactly, as noted the use of thousands was likely just a default "large number" the characters were using over anything else, there's no evidence people were left behind barring those we actually saw.
    MetropolisMCU said:
    So, on other subjects, since I saw some clips and read some stuff on Witch From Mercury thanks to all the RWBY comparisons made here and on TV Tropes...

    Anyone else see Prospera as basically what happens when you take Raven and Adam and put them in a blender?

    Cause I see them in her and ALL the red flags that come with them.
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    Hmm, I haven't been keeping up with Witch from Mercury as much as I should so its hard to say.

    As it is I don't think Raven or Adam are good examples of Prospera's particular brand, she seems much closer to Salem to be honest.

    What I mean is, Raven's issue is ultimately that she stared into the abyss and it stared back and she blinked, breaking and becoming a coward; Prospera is many things but I don't think cowards is among them.

    Adam's thing is that he presented himself as a hero but was in truth a self serving egomaniac with massive bloodlust and entitlement; he's closer to Prospera, but he lacks her grand scale skills and her motives seem far less ego based.

    Prospera's thing seems more to be coldly manipulative but warm on the surface, she has no issue presenting as weak if it serves her interests, but she tends to enter a game already prepared to win and her motives seem a mixture of vengeance and ideological.
     
    To be fair, this isn't the first time they used a small amount of models and said that's a lot of people.

     
    Psyga315 said:
    To be fair, this isn't the first time they used a small amount of models and said that's a lot of people.

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    Yeah but that just suggests even more that no one was really left behind since they had no one on the streets. Not a small crowd, not even one or two scared civilians, no one. Zero outside of Watts and Ironwood.

    Edit: I have to go back and check but I am fairly certain that RWBY told the staff they wanted something capable of transporting the whole population of Atlas so presumably the full scale of those portals was massive
     
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    I saw a talk with some friends the other day about making a spiritual successor to RWBY, and I wonder how a story like that would be possible. Could the fairy tale theme be replaced with something else?
     
    It depends, early RWBY is very much a chimera, it shamelessly draws inspiration, style, and concepts from anywhere and everywhere, but with folklore, fairy tales, and anime as the big three.

    As such it can have many spiritual successors due to the sheer breadth of it's draw. One could argue that it already has several in fact. That said it's hard to make a definitive claim on that sort of thing because every successor will appeal to different aspects of the original fanbase and have a different take on what parts of the original they're descendent from.

    RWBY without the fairy tails could be done, but in order for it to work you'd have to lean into the other pillars hard.

    A swap would be even trickier since the fairy tale motif is so central. It depends a lot on what you're going to sub in.
     
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    *Sigh* And RT tried a Ruby Vtuber. The quality was amazingly low, and at least one source in CRWBY is claiming it was a test program someone cobbled up that RT rushed out onto twitter. Given the companies experience with lets players in general, this is just SAD.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    *Sigh* And RT tried a Ruby Vtuber. The quality was amazingly low, and at least one source in CRWBY is claiming it was a test program someone cobbled up that RT rushed out onto twitter. Given the companies experience with lets players in general, this is just SAD.
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    Worst part?

    Allegedly Kdin proposed the idea back in 2019 but was rejected.
     
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