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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Sandstar said:
    You don't know if it's a coincidence, especially since Sun's hair is yellow.
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    Just to clarify I meant the confluence of Sun & Sun was a coincidence, not the name choice in of itself, though given he's a monkey Faunus with the last name Wukong (Shrugs), but that's just me clarifying what I meant by coincidence.
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Similarly, we don't actually know this is her goal and there are pretty good reasons to think it isn't, despite what Oz says and what she lets Tyrian believe.
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    Heck, given Tyrian worships her specifically, I certainly don't think he's aware of the whole 'summon gods' aspect, and broadly speaking I agree, Ozpin doesn't show a great understanding of Salem in my eyes, in fact him not understanding her seems to be a consistent problem for him.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Similarly, we don't actually know this is her goal and there are pretty good reasons to think it isn't, despite what Oz says and what she lets Tyrian believe.
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    I'm curious what leads you to think that since the gods said (paraphrasing) "Hey if you guys bring the relics together and humanity isn't united, we're gonna blow up the earth. And no we're not going to define "bring together" lol get fucked mortals."

    And now she's working real hard to get all the relics under her thumb when humanity is definitely not united
     
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    It's pretty clear that Salem wants to die, and hopes that by bringing the artifacts together and having the gods destroy the world, she would also die.
     
    w34v3r said:
    I don't understand the question.
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    We know that bringing the relics together and summoning the gods before humanity is united will have the gods blow up the earth.

    We know that Salem wants all the relics united at a time when humanity is not united.

    It was asserted that we do not know Salems goal. However, given the above two facts, it seems very likely that her goal is the destruction of everyone everywhere. What causes there to think otherwise?

    Sandstar said:
    It's pretty clear that Salem wants to die, and hopes that by bringing the artifacts together and having the gods destroy the world, she would also die.
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    Honestly this would be hilarious if that was her motivation as it would render the entire show pointless. If she wants to die, all she has to do was let Ozpin have his way and unite humanity before asking him to summon the gods so they can remove her curse that they put on her for failing to recognize the value of mortality.
     
    JayTee said:
    Honestly this would be hilarious if that was her motivation as it would render the entire show pointless. If she wants to die, all she has to do was let Ozpin have his way and unite humanity before asking him to summon the gods so they can remove her curse that they put on her for failing to recognize the value of mortality.
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    I don't think it's Salem that's preventing humanity from being united...
     
    Zam said:
    Just to clarify I meant the confluence of Sun & Sun was a coincidence, not the name choice in of itself, though given he's a monkey Faunus with the last name Wukong (Shrugs), but that's just me clarifying what I meant by coincidence.
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    Except there isn't a color actually relating to his character in his name if you take out the "Sun = sun" connection, so it seems very unlikely that it's just something totally incidental to the character that the creators didn't intend to be read that way when they gave him bright yellow hair and fur.

    Yes, the essential point that Sun's name doesn't actually mean "sun" and instead just happens to be spelled the same in English remains correct (and I've mentioned before the actual meaning of the name "Sun Wukong" in its original context and how appropriate it actually is for Sun himself), but that doesn't negate the former point.
     
    JayTee said:
    This piqued my interest, would you care to elaborate or link me the relevant post?
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    Basically, it's a pun that takes some explaining if you don't know Chinese characters. One of the names for "monkey/macaque" in Chinese is húsūn (猢猻) and can be used to describe both literal monkeys, and people who are being called monkeys in a figurative sense. Monkeys in China are considered "liminal" figures, in that they're clearly intelligent and humanlike in some ways, at least more than most animals, but still ruled by animal instinct over reason; a "monkey" is what you might be called if you're very reckless, impolite/improper, have bad manners or thieving habits, etc. Sound familiar?

    Sūn (孫) is a common Chinese surname, but note that it is spelled with just one less stroke than the second character in húsūn; that missing stroke (which doesn't affect the pronunciation at all) is what is called a "dog radical," because it is almost exclusively used in words or names that refer to animals... or to pejoratively refer to those the Han Chinese majority considered "barbarian" peoples (both within and outside their borders), who were compared to animals through the use of linguistics means like the "dog radical" in order to cast them as inferior and subhuman.

    So when Patriarch Subhūti gave the self-proclaimed "Handsome Monkey King" a new name to mark his entry into Buddhism, he chose one that was both a pun on the fact that this student was born as a monkey but also a confirmation that he was as much as a person and a legitimate disciple of the Buddha as any human he'd ever taught.
     
    Ozpin.
    He has ruled, both intentionally and not, and I get the feeling he does not like it. As a cult leader as shown in the tale of the Infinite Man he let himself die thinking it would be a good friend, but when he finally ended up in a another body and went to find said cult he could not find them and all that remained of that life was a broken and bitter woman who felt betrayed. Then later in yet another life he ends up as The King of Vale and tries to actively go to war. Then when he is finally left with no choice he busts out The Sword and ends the whole thing, but instead of taking rule of the world when the other kingdom leaders bow to him he instead calls for a peace treaty that puts various territory back where it was and sets up a new way for the world before giving up his crown and is marked as The Last King of Vale.
    Heck even as Ozpin with Beacon and the Vytal Tournament suddenly under attack he does not immediately go to the action himself. It takes him a moment before he grabs his cane and sets out to try and set his countermeasure into action.

    Salem.
    Her goal is simple, yet complex. She is driven by spite. Spite at The Gods, spite and Oz, spite at humanity. She never got what she wanted, not for long. Every time she thought she had found her freedom and happiness, it gets stripped from her. So, she aims her spite at others to make them suffer. She has suffered, so she will make sure all others suffer, too. So strip her of what she loves, curse her, turn on her, build forces to stand against her, she will take that spite, take all that others make or use, and twist it against them, and she will smile as she watches it all burn down.
     
    JayTee said:
    I'm curious what leads you to think that since the gods said (paraphrasing) "Hey if you guys bring the relics together and humanity isn't united, we're gonna blow up the earth. And no we're not going to define "bring together" lol get fucked mortals."

    And now she's working real hard to get all the relics under her thumb when humanity is definitely not united
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    At this point, all we know is that she's trying to get the artifacts away from Ozpin and under her control, we do not actually know that she wants to unite all of them. It's also notable that bringing the artifacts together, regardless of humanity's state, is Ozpin's escape clause from immortality, but the last time the Brothers killed everyone they intentionally left her alive to suffer.

    If I was in Salem's shoes, I'd be terrified of Oz finally giving up on everything and kicking off the end of the world himself. I'd also be willing to do almost anything to make sure he couldn't, which can be best accomplished by making sure he has control over as few artifacts as possible.

    Sandstar said:
    It's pretty clear that Salem wants to die, and hopes that by bringing the artifacts together and having the gods destroy the world, she would also die.
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    It's clear that Salem wants to die, but the second part is only supported by Ozpin's assumptions and that wouldn't be a very good plan on her part, since the Brothers already proved they were willing to leave her alive out of spite.

    JayTee said:
    Honestly this would be hilarious if that was her motivation as it would render the entire show pointless. If she wants to die, all she has to do was let Ozpin have his way and unite humanity before asking him to summon the gods so they can remove her curse that they put on her for failing to recognize the value of mortality.
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    That would only be true if A) Ozpin's task was possible and B) she believed that the Brothers would undo her curse. Neither of those things are likely to be true.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    It's clear that Salem wants to die, but the second part is only supported by Ozpin's assumptions and that wouldn't be a very good plan on her part, since the Brothers already proved they were willing to leave her alive out of spite.
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    It's clear that Salem doesn't have good ideas, considering how all of this shit started ended up with every single human on remnant being annihilated. When you're immortal, and you're tired of being alive, blowing up the planet seems like it might be a good way to die. It's obvious that she doesn't value humanity, and humanity isn't getting off it's duff to get united any time soon, sooooo... (course, it could be that Salem wants to kill every human, save one, and then claim that she and that person are united (if she still counts as human), blah blah blah. Who knows.) The only thing we know is that Oz thought it would be double plus bad for her to get her hands on them, so we can only assume that the Chekov's planetary destruction that was already mentioned is the end the result of Salem getting them.
     
    Sandstar said:
    It's clear that Salem doesn't have good ideas, considering how all of this shit started ended up with every single human on remnant being annihilated. When you're immortal, and you're tired of being alive, blowing up the planet seems like it might be a good way to die. It's obvious that she doesn't value humanity, and humanity isn't getting off it's duff to get united any time soon, sooooo... (course, it could be that Salem wants to kill every human, save one, and then claim that she and that person are united (if she still counts as human), blah blah blah. Who knows.) The only thing we know is that Oz thought it would be double plus bad for her to get her hands on them, so we can only assume that the Chekov's planetary destruction that was already mentioned is the end the result of Salem getting them.
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    If you're talking about her confrontation with the Brothers, then her plan wasn't actually that bad. To be clear, it was a bad plan, but "Annihilating all life on the planet, before breaking the moon and buggering off to parts unknown" is not a reasonable worst-case scenario to expect from gathering a, fairly small, group of people up and attacking the gods because they cursed you for poorly explained reasons.

    Also, and this is important, they didn't say they'd blow up the planet if humanity failed. The most obvious expectation is that they'll simply kill everyone, but her, but make sure life can't come back this time. When you're immortal, that scenario looks like something to avoid at all costs.

    Pugman said:
    I think one thing I hope we get by the end of it all is clarification on what Light means by "unify"
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    I just checked, and the God of Light didn't actually use the word "Unify." The two possibilities were "Live in harmony and set aside their differences" vs "Demand our blessings, while fighting amongst themselves."

    Also, it's worth noting that he lied to Ozma at the start of that exchange, saying that his brother was solely responsible for the annihilation of all life, as if he hadn't decided to actively look away, without a word of protest.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    If you're talking about her confrontation with the Brothers, then her plan wasn't actually that bad. To be clear, it was a bad plan, but "Annihilating all life on the planet, before breaking the moon and buggering off to parts unknown" is not a reasonable worst-case scenario to expect from gathering a, fairly small, group of people up and attacking the gods because they cursed you for poorly explained reasons.

    Also, and this is important, they didn't say they'd blow up the planet if humanity failed. The most obvious expectation is that they'll simply kill everyone, but her, but make sure life can't come back this time. When you're immortal, that scenario looks like something to avoid at all costs.
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    I do feel like, if you're going up against omnipotent gods, the total destruction of all life on your planet is something you should anticipate.
     
    She'd already proven they were neither omniscient nor particularly good orators, she had reason to doubt the scale of their powers.
     
    Sandstar said:
    I do feel like, if you're going up against omnipotent gods, the total destruction of all life on your planet is something you should anticipate.
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    Not really? Just because an omnipotent god could do something, does not mean you should anticipate they will do that thing, especially if it's not in keeping with their prior behavior or the image they try to present.

    That said, as others have already pointed out, Salem already had multiple pieces of evidence showing the Brothers weren't all powerful, not the least of which was the God of Light outright telling her as much.
     
    Epsilon Rose said:
    Not really? Just because an omnipotent god could do something, does not mean you should anticipate they will do that thing, especially if it's not in keeping with their prior behavior or the image they try to present.

    That said, as others have already pointed out, Salem already had multiple pieces of evidence showing the Brothers weren't all powerful, not the least of which was the God of Light outright telling her as much.
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    I'm too tired to argue, but I still think that when you start messin' with Gods, you should anticipate that something cataclysmic might happen. And, in fact, if she had she wouldn't be in the position she's in. I might suggest that what she had wasn't as much evidence, but her desire to believe that should could take on the brothers. Maybe I just have better threat assessment than she does?
     
    Sandstar said:
    I'm too tired to argue, but I still think that when you start messin' with Gods, you should anticipate that something cataclysmic might happen. And, in fact, if she had she wouldn't be in the position she's in. I might suggest that what she had wasn't as much evidence, but her desire to believe that should could take on the brothers. Maybe I just have better threat assessment than she does?
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    But that's on our world, where we have many, many, many tales of gods screwing people over and massacring entire civilizations because someone didn't adjust the worship flowers just right.

    The Brother Gods very much seem to have been hugely, massively hands off, and we've got no indications they did anything similar until the Dark Brother suddenly did. And plus, they'd cultivated a worship of them among her entire civilization, by at least appearing benevolent (Light) and unconcerned (Dark). Salem had no way to know what to expect.
     
    TCGM said:
    But that's on our world, where we have many, many, many tales of gods screwing people over and massacring entire civilizations because someone didn't adjust the worship flowers just right.

    The Brother Gods very much seem to have been hugely, massively hands off, and we've got no indications they did anything similar until the Dark Brother suddenly did. And plus, they'd cultivated a worship of them among her entire civilization, by at least appearing benevolent (Light) and unconcerned (Dark). Salem had no way to know what to expect.
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    She attacked them! What did she think was going to happen?! I'm not saying they were justified, not in any way, but I don't see how you don't anticipate someone fighting back when you attack someone. And you can say that she didn't think they'd kill everyone on remnant, but wasn't most of humanity there at the time? it's been a while since i watched that episode.
     
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