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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • nmWarden said:
    Well, kind of. Learning about Salem would cause more "automated" Grimm attacks in the short term. That truth would cause misery, fear, and anger, as every huntsmen knows. Managing the emotional issues of the populace is one of the duties of a leader in Remnant, one which incited a war in the past. Trying NOT to attract the attention of Grimm is a major part of how humans and faunus have survived against Grimm for their entire history.

    If the decision-making were up to me, I'd keep her a secret too. Servants flocking to Salem, people like Tyrian, are more difficult to deal with if they are grouped together like an army rather than independent criminals. Dealing with Grimm, Salem's magic, AND terrifying humanoids with aura? No thank you.

    If Salem revealed herself to the world then fine, the leaders can deal with the populace's outcry honestly or with dishonesty. But dealing with her in the shadows seemed more plausible, seemed like it would require fewer sacrifices.
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    The problem is that Salem works best when no one knows who she even is since she can just let people point fingers and fight each other while she comes in and claims her prize, like what we see her do in Volume 8.

    And it's better to be quick to the draw because if Salem chose to at any point prior to Volume 8, she could totally convince Remnant that she is actually the good guy and through a mixture of withholding information, reinterpreting any and all actions done by Oz's crew as though they were always evil, and the bias of whoever talks first, put Ozpin in a worse spot than if he kept at the shadow war.
     
    You know, a big problem I have with Ozpin is how he utterly fails to capitalize on his immortality to fight Salem. There are a bunch of ways he could be far more effective at his task of keeping humanity safe.

    Like, he could set himself up as a dahlia-lama type figure for the world's religion, and paint Salem as a devil figure. Or, if he wanted to stick to his shadow war style, he could use his immortality to to accumulate vast amounts of wealth and influence behind the scenes, bankrolling politicians and organizations he thinks will offer humanity the greatest chance for success, keeping a select few elites and major political leaders in the know about Salem with contingency plans to counteract her conspiracies and reveal should she decided to make herself a public figure.

    Honestly this problem isn't exclusive to him, as it apples to almost every other guiding figure immortal in fiction, so while I'm not surprised that this didn't happen, I am disappointed.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The problem is that Salem works best when no one knows who she even is since she can just let people point fingers and fight each other while she comes in and claims her prize, like what we see her do in Volume 8.

    And it's better to be quick to the draw because if Salem chose to at any point prior to Volume 8, she could totally convince Remnant that she is actually the good guy and through a mixture of withholding information, reinterpreting any and all actions done by Oz's crew as though they were always evil, and the bias of whoever talks first, put Ozpin in a worse spot than if he kept at the shadow war.
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    Not everyone is capable of long cons of Sheev Palpatine, you know. Salem's disdain and malice for humanoids doesn't have a pause button. Yes, bad guys can be expected to utilize treachery, subversion, and mind control. That does not mean this scenario of yours was at all likely. It does not mean it was an outcome worth planning for according to Ozpin, who understands her better than anyone.

    If she became a positive public figure, Salem would have to put on a mask over, and over again of beneficence. Her plans would require her to personally show a great deal of agility in the public sphere. She's enthroned herself as queen of the Grimm, not as some avatar of treachery. Sure, let the minions do the drudgery of backstabbing and turning people against each other. And along those lines, leaders of Remnant should have been looking for signs of foul play (as Ironwood did, though he aimed at the wrong targets).

    I'm trying to say, without any derision or mockery, that Salem personally pulling a Palpatine (bending and scraping to mortals for attention) A. would not have been in character,

    B. would have gotten her hamstrung by Ozpin at every turn (likely as a revolutionary rather than a leader of a city) who would work VERY hard to prove to the public any villainous deeds she got up to,

    and C. would not have gotten her what she wanted most- the four divine artifacts plus the maidens. It seems like each of the Maidens knew about Salem, so we can assume they would also oppose her if Salem tried to gain power publicly.

    So ultimately we shouldn't look down on Ozpin, Ironwood, etc for not preparing for that outcome. It is significantly different than looking out for mortal minions of Salem.
     
    nmWarden said:
    Not everyone is capable of long cons of Sheev Palpatine, you know. Salem's disdain and malice for humanoids doesn't have a pause button. Yes, bad guys can be expected to utilize treachery, subversion, and mind control. That does not mean this scenario of yours was at all likely. It does not mean it was an outcome worth planning for according to Ozpin, who understands her better than anyone.

    If she became a positive public figure, Salem would have to put on a mask over, and over again of beneficence. Her plans would require her to personally show a great deal of agility in the public sphere. She's enthroned herself as queen of the Grimm, not as some avatar of treachery. Sure, let the minions do the drudgery of backstabbing and turning people against each other. And along those lines, leaders of Remnant should have been looking for signs of foul play (as Ironwood did, though he aimed at the wrong targets).

    I'm trying to say, without any derision or mockery, that Salem personally pulling a Palpatine (bending and scraping to mortals for attention) A. would not have been in character,

    B. would have gotten her hamstrung by Ozpin at every turn (likely as a revolutionary rather than a leader of a city) who would work VERY hard to prove to the public any villainous deeds she got up to,

    and C. would not have gotten her what she wanted most- the four divine artifacts plus the maidens. It seems like each of the Maidens knew about Salem, so we can assume they would also oppose her if Salem tried to gain power publicly.

    So ultimately we shouldn't look down on Ozpin, Ironwood, etc for not preparing for that outcome. It is significantly different than looking out for mortal minions of Salem.
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    Her entire thing until the end of Volume 7 was sitting back at the house and pretending to care about her minions while they did all the work so she could hide behind proxies so not really that different. And its not like she hasn't pulled off the benevolent queen stick before since Ozma only really got warning signs when Salem started ranting about using their kids to replace humanity.
     
    lol there's no way Salem has the patience or compassion to pretend to be nice to people as a public figure if her long term goal is to kill everyone. She'd snap within a week and kill some paparazzi asshole, whom everyone would agree totally deserved it because paparazzi aren't people, but her image would be ruined and she'd have to go to ground for a few centuries for people to forget about it.
     
    JayTee said:
    Or, if he wanted to stick to his shadow war style, he could use his immortality to to accumulate vast amounts of wealth and influence behind the scenes, bankrolling politicians and organizations he thinks will offer humanity the greatest chance for success, keeping a select few elites and major political leaders in the know about Salem with contingency plans to counteract her conspiracies and reveal should she decided to make herself a public figure.
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    That's literally what he did with the academies, just without money.

    Unless you're suggesting he go even further. And I'm not super crazy on Ozpin secretly running the world. Kinda, you know, goes against the themes of the story. For all the jokes about Ozpin running the Illuminati, he isn't a shadow dictator and it should stay that way.
     
    erttheking said:
    That's literally what he did with the academies, just without money.

    Unless you're suggesting he go even further. And I'm not super crazy on Ozpin secretly running the world. Kinda, you know, goes against the themes of the story. For all the jokes about Ozpin running the Illuminati, he isn't a shadow dictator and it should stay that way.
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    I'm saying that Ozpin as written isn't very effective at this god-given task and that there were a lot of things he could have done that would make it a lot easier to neuter Salem and uplift humanity.
     
    I kind of like Ozpin not being good at his god granted task. If he ever did that job he'd summon them back and they're worse than Salem.
     
    JayTee said:
    I'm saying that Ozpin as written isn't very effective at this god-given task and that there were a lot of things he could have done that would make it a lot easier to neuter Salem and uplift humanity.
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    Pretty much all of those things end to the with him either being an openly god like figure or a shadow dictator. The second would go against the themes of the story and probably would be unproductive in the long run. He already tried doing the first with Salem at his side, it ended with holy wars that killed non-believers in his name.

    I think you're demanding the ever vaunted, to borrow a term, SB competency.

    If I can be frank? I feel Ozpin is Sisyphus. He's been given a never ending and impossible task. Make it so that humankind is truly united and doesn't fight each other? Yeah. Good luck with that.
     
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    The problem is that doing all that doesn't require any special level of competency. Especially when you have unlimited do overs through reincarnations and new identities to build up the systems and infrastructure needed for it.

    Like I said, this is the problem with any kind of immortal being with large scale long-term goals. If they haven't been spending the time and effort to build up the resources and infrastructure needed to implement their goals in all their time alive, it really makes me question why even make the character immortal in the first place when a normal but still wealthy and influential character would work just as well.
     
    JayTee said:
    The problem is that doing all that doesn't require any special level of competency. Especially when you have unlimited do overs through reincarnations and new identities to build up the systems and infrastructure needed for it.

    Like I said, this is the problem with any kind of immortal being with large scale long-term goals. If they haven't been spending the time and effort to build up the resources and infrastructure needed to implement their goals in all their time alive, it really makes me question why even make the character immortal in the first place when a normal but still wealthy and influential character would work just as well.
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    Manipulating and guiding an entire planet, by design, requires an ungodly amount of competency. You need more than just living a long time. Ozpin's skills never included planning out developing our institutions and technological develop over the course of centuries. In fact I'm pretty sure there's no one who can do that, they'd be king of Earth if they could.

    He's actually done an awful lot setting up the academies and the soft power they wield. You seem to more or less be asking for things that would just prematurely end the plot. I mean, rule one of fiction. There needs to be conflict.
     
    erttheking said:
    Manipulating and guiding an entire planet, by design, requires an ungodly amount of competency. You need more than just living a long time. Ozpin's skills never included planning out developing our institutions and technological develop over the course of centuries. In fact I'm pretty sure there's no one who can do that, they'd be king of Earth if they could.

    He's actually done an awful lot setting up the academies and the soft power they wield. You seem to more or less be asking for things that would just prematurely end the plot. I mean, rule one of fiction. There needs to be conflict.
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    I mean, he's already ruled the kingdom once, this would just be the same thing but scaled up. If you can't do it all himself, appoint deputies to oversee different regions in your place.

    Plus it would totally fit the fairytale vibe that the series is going for with him being the "good King" you see in a lot of stories in contrast to Salems wicked witch aesthetic/role
     
    JayTee said:
    I mean, he's already ruled the kingdom once, this would just be the same thing but scaled up. If you can't do it all himself, appoint deputies to oversee different regions in your place.

    Plus it would totally fit the fairytale vibe that the series is going for with him being the "good King" you see in a lot of stories in contrast to Salems wicked witch aesthetic/role
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    He was openly given a chance to do that. And he turned it down. Because there's more to a united world than painting a map the same blob of color. And a planet wide empire is a logistical nightmare that would lead to problems, dissent, and rebellion. And opposing autocracy by becoming the mother of all autocrats would be very hypocritical

    Ozpin isn't the good king. Who he is can be found right in his name. He's the Wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtain. Not king of all Remnant.
     
    erttheking said:
    He was openly given a chance to do that. And he turned it down. Because there's more to a united world than painting a map the same blob of color. And a planet wide empire is a logistical nightmare that would lead to problems, dissent, and rebellion. And opposing autocracy by becoming the mother of all autocrats would be very hypocritical

    Ozpin isn't the good king. Who he is can be found right in his name. He's the Wizard of Oz, the man behind the curtain. Not king of all Remnant.
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    I think we've already covered this? Yeah, right here:

    JayTee said:
    Or, if he wanted to stick to his shadow war style, he could use his immortality to to accumulate vast amounts of wealth and influence behind the scenes, bankrolling politicians and organizations he thinks will offer humanity the greatest chance for success, keeping a select few elites and major political leaders in the know about Salem with contingency plans to counteract her conspiracies and reveal should she decided to make herself a public figure.
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    If he wants to be the man behind the curtain, he totally can. All I'm asking from him is a bit more legwork from a divinely appointed immortal guardian of mankind
     
    JayTee said:
    I think we've already covered this? Yeah, right here:



    If he wants to be the man behind the curtain, he totally can. All I'm asking from him is a bit more legwork from a divinely appointed immortal guardian of mankind
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    I think we're not gonna change each other's mind on this, we've reached the point where we're just gonna start repeating ourselves.

    Agree to disagree?
     
    erttheking said:
    I think we're not gonna change each other's mind on this, we've reached the point where we're just gonna start repeating ourselves.

    Agree to disagree?
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    Absolutely not! We need to go over this at least five more times with increasing levels of aggression until the mods step in and ban us both from the thread!

    (Yeah no prob bro, gg nice discussion ^_^b)
     
    Sandstar said:
    That seems kind of picky. Words can have two meanings, and it people like the poetry of both being named sun, one in english, and one in japanese, they're not wrong.
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    Pretty sure both names are of Chinese origin, not Japanese, and given Sun's name makes no sense with that read and to me at least it kinda feels like it disregards the birth language, I am not a fan.
     
    Sandstar said:
    But Sun is a word in english as well. And yes, I meant Chinese. Not sure what happened there. Edited.
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    Sure, but that's just coincidence in this case, the name is still Chinese and doesn't mean the same thing.

    That's my stance at least, but I think we are just not going to agree on this topic, and I have an appointment to get to, so apologies if I don't continue to respond.
     
    Zam said:
    Sure, but that's just coincidence in this case, the name is still Chinese and doesn't mean the same thing.

    That's my stance at least, but I think we are just not going to agree on this topic, and I have an appointment to get to, so apologies if I don't continue to respond.
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    You don't know if it's a coincidence, especially since Sun's hair is yellow.
     
    Zam said:
    Oh snap, this is neat!

    View: https://anthurak.tumblr.com/post/685102945192312832/
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    nmWarden said:
    Well, kind of. Learning about Salem would cause more "automated" Grimm attacks in the short term. That truth would cause misery, fear, and anger, as every huntsmen knows. Managing the emotional issues of the populace is one of the duties of a leader in Remnant, one which incited a war in the past. Trying NOT to attract the attention of Grimm is a major part of how humans and faunus have survived against Grimm for their entire history.

    If the decision-making were up to me, I'd keep her a secret too. Servants flocking to Salem, people like Tyrian, are more difficult to deal with if they are grouped together like an army rather than independent criminals. Dealing with Grimm, Salem's magic, AND terrifying humanoids with aura? No thank you.

    If Salem revealed herself to the world then fine, the leaders can deal with the populace's outcry honestly or with dishonesty. But dealing with her in the shadows seemed more plausible, seemed like it would require fewer sacrifices.
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    If I recall correctly, at one point Oz gave justifications for both sides: He can't reveal Salem, because then people would try to make deal with her, and she could pick humanity apart one piece at a time. Conversely, she can't just run crusades against the human cities because then everyone would see her as an external enemy, which would let them unite and defeat her.

    I'm a bit skeptical of that second point, and this reasoning also leaves out the possibility of Salem revealing herself in ways other than immediate omnicide, but Oz did put some thought into why she'd play along. It's just that he missed some important details and got stuck in one mental paradigm, which ultimately ruined his plans. This is something of a repeating pattern for him.

    nmWarden said:
    It does not mean it was an outcome worth planning for according to Ozpin, who understands her better than anyone.
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    We don't actually know that he understands her particularly well and, given his track record, it's reasonable to conclude he doesn't.

    JayTee said:
    lol there's no way Salem has the patience or compassion to pretend to be nice to people as a public figure if her long term goal is to kill everyone.
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    Similarly, we don't actually know this is her goal and there are pretty good reasons to think it isn't, despite what Oz says and what she lets Tyrian believe.
     
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