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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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    • Triggerhappy said:
    Actually I assume what just happened was the backup plan. No more and no less. Yang is disqualified, and probably arrested, Cinder's team gets to advance with someone else in Mercury's place. They win they win, they lose they still win.

    Really the only person who might be able to shed doubt on what just happened is Coco, which would probably require someone to suspect foul play in her presence, and it's questionable if she even remembers the last few seconds of her fight.
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    Possibly but I get the feeling that Mercury went down too easily in that fight, especially concidering that Cinder probably has complete control of who fights who.
     
    Sinsystems said:
    My thoughts exactly, it could be the reason for their naming theme. They are paying homage to the family's founder.

    Also it looks like we now have at least one of Cinder's main goals, which can probably help us understand her over all plan.
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    Pretty sure Cinder is in fact a grimm wearing a human suit, and her plan is 'kill all humans'.
     
    NMS said:
    So when Yang was punching Mercury, there was kind of a weird effect on him



    Is this supposed to signify his aura hitting zero or the illusion kicking in?
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    I noticed that too, my thinking is that it was his Aura Forcefield being forcefully dissipated. Also did Yang's shotgun blast go through him!?
     
    Barnaby said:
    By making sex, drugs, food, drink, and entertainment freely available and in excess, a population can be kept passive. Definitely not happy, but too numb to feel bad.

    That's the kind of evil government I want to see. When are we getting more of that?
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    I suspect the main reason you don't see much of that is because it makes the ratings go up. I am reminded of Rakdos, the red-black guild in the Ravnica setting in MTG. Each guild is supposed to serve a purpose, and given the nature of that color combination, the obvious purpose for Rakdos would be sex, drugs, and rock & roll, an opiate for the masses in a crapsack setting. Instead they just made them into crazy axe murderers who run a slaving operation that the other guilds find useful for cheap labor... because apparently that's a much better thing to have in a card game played by children. In any case, that's my basic assumption as to why we keep getting Tyrannia rather than Hedonia, even if the latter is arguably more interesting in many ways.
     
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    Sinsystems said:
    So looking past the reveal of the Maidens and what happened with Yang there are some ratjer unsettling implications regarding Penny.

    Namely the part where Ironwood said that the tech Altas developed allows them to "capture and place a person's aura in a vessel" which implies that the process used to create Penny involved extracting the soul from a living person and placing it in a robot body.

    This would explain why Penny is so human like, the form is probably to help the aura latch on to the vessel and her personality is the result of the aura acting on the form rather than something programmed in.

    However this also means that odds are Cinder knows about the tech since she has access to Penny's blueprints. Meaning it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for her to figure out how Ozpin's group plan on transfering the Maiden's power.
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    Penny could still be fully artificial. After all, the only part of Atlas's research into aura that is essential to the conspiracy's plan is transferring aura. But Atlas went further and also developed artificial vessels for aura. Creating artificial aura would not be beyond them.

    This also means Cinder may or may not know about the plan to transfer Amber's aura, since depending on how Penny was created the files on her might not mention aura transfer.

    Sinsystems said:
    Possibly but I get the feeling that Mercury went down too easily in that fight, especially concidering that Cinder probably has complete control of who fights who.
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    Maybe Mercury underestimated Yang? Emerald did deride her as "the bimbo".
     
    Sinsystems said:
    So looking past the reveal of the Maidens and what happened with Yang there are some ratjer unsettling implications regarding Penny.

    Namely the part where Ironwood said that the tech Altas developed allows them to "capture and place a person's aura in a vessel" which implies that the process used to create Penny involved extracting the soul from a living person and placing it in a robot body.

    This would explain why Penny is so human like, the form is probably to help the aura latch on to the vessel and her personality is the result of the aura acting on the form rather than something programmed in.

    However this also means that odds are Cinder knows about the tech since she has access to Penny's blueprints. Meaning it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for her to figure out how Ozpin's group plan on transfering the Maiden's power.
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    Problems with this theory:

    Ironwood says that he BELIEVES Atlas has discovered how to capture an Aura. Which means it's never actually been successfully done, even letting alone the whole Maiden business.

    Also, one would think Doctor Poledina and General Ironwood would make sure that Penny knows she really is a Real Girl who happens to have an artificial body. Instead, Penny apparently believes she is generating her Aura on her own, and yet STILL doubts that she is a Real Girl.

    I think Penny was just a happy accident stemming from the primary research into Auras, and Ironwood could clearly see the advantages behind BUILDING new Hunters of incredible power.



    Other observations:

    * Callous old man refuses to leave his home, though he has a garden/crop fields which the Spring Maiden puts back in order, and the Fall Maiden convinces him to be grateful for "all that he has" which implies he has a lot (as opposed to "look at what little he has, and be thankful for it regardless"). The man turns out to be some sort of godlike being who can grant magical powers. If he's a god, then what was his "house" and what was his "garden"?

    * Ozpin is not the old man of the story, since the story was being told when he was a young boy.

    * Ozpin and Pyrrha have an exchange about Ozpin's age I don't understand, or which seemed more important than it apparently turns out to be. She says he's not THAT old, but this seems prompted by mentions of his age rather than Pyrrha protesting time-line issues. Since, after all, the story is clearly being told when people are boys right now. If the story really has been around for more than 80, Pyrrha shouldn't think the fairytale is NEW. So, probably just Pyrrha trying to comfort a man about his age when she doesn't actually know how old he really is.

    * A certain tense points, the tick-tock of Ozpin's clockwork office speeds up like an excited heartbeat.

    * The Vault under the Hunter Academies. Ozpin's office is at the top of the CCT tower? Atlas went to a lot of trouble to build those FOUR towers? Each one guards another vault?

    * The Maidens have existed for thousands of years -- LONG before the Great War.

    * Grimm are growing stronger and more prevalent (numerous or closer; "there are more where we can see them")

    * Ironwood says, "Not a war between nations". Then a war against WHOM? Or WHAT? The Grimm? The White Fang? Some other independent faction led by Cinder and supported by the "things she's made" which "ARE fear"?

    * How do they know part of Amber/Autumn's power was stolen? She's apparently been comatose since the attack, since if she was awake enough to tell them, she could have been thinking about... the young woman who attacked her, huh. Since that could have been what she was trying to tell them before she lost consciousness. Of course, Aura measuring equipment might be able to detect Maiden powers, or perhaps her powers were visibly obvious to anyone looking at her?

    * "Amber being preserved" is not a bad pun, I feel. It's clever, though sad.

    * Pyrrha asks, "Why keep it secret?" Glynda says, "From what we understand, it used to be common knowledge." So the maidens have been kept a secret for so long that the Order of the Phoenix (Order of the Maidens?) doesn't seem to know how long ago that secrecy started. Not even OZPIN, otherwise Glynda's knowledge would be firmer since she could just ask HIM. Glynda will later say that the secrets Pyrrha are learning now go against HUNDREDS of years of history and religion, which means that the Maidens have been kept a secret for at LEAST hundreds of years.

    * So, current theory: Ozpin is not only younger than the first Maidens or the legend of the Maidens, he's also MUCH younger than the conspiracy to keep them secret. Ozpin might predate the Great War, but that was only 80 years ago, and the Maidens have been around for THOUSANDS of years.

    * The unnamed order was created to remove the Maidens from the public eye, let their legend fade into myth, and keep them hidden and protected from those who would hunt and murder them to take their power. Given that keeping the maidens a secret would be so important, and given that it's possible for other young maidens to kill them in order to be the last one in their thoughts and thus the new heirs to their power, I'm ASSUMING VERY STRONGLY that the Seasonal Maiden powers have NOTHING TO DO WITH COMBAT.

    * Seasonal Maiden powers having nothing to do with combat or self-defense should be a relief to those people worrying about "DBZ power level escalation". Look at what happened to poor Amber; not only was she fatally injured, half of her "unimaginable" Seasonal Maiden powers hasn't been enough for her to recover despite the best medical help in the world. She hasn't even regained consciousness!

    * Cinder also hasn't displayed powers, abilities, or experience out of the league of a professional huntress; Glynda was able to match her quite well, until Glynda needed to protect Ruby, which gave Cinder enough time to escape in the flying machine she was already aboard. Cinder's other two fighting styles likewise haven't been particularly overwhelming. Even putting them all together isn't overwhelming, since there's only so many techniques she can employ at once.

    * The one POSSIBLE feat of Maiden power we've heard about involves "creating" something. And this creation can be assumed to have taken a lot of time and resources, given that Cinder has been needing to work in secrecy for a while now; at least since attacking Amber. Which could have been years ago.

    * Speaking of which, Atlas has spent "the last few years" studying Aura more scientifically; perhaps specifically because of Amber's condition. Penny is obviously a fruit of that research, whether or not she was actually the intended goal. The intended goal may have been, all along, the capture someone's Aura (not necessarily their soul) and "cram it into someone else".

    * But Ironwood says he only "believes" that Atlas has found a way to "capture" Aura. Unless there are things he's not telling his fellow conspirators (He says "Classified" to Pyrrha, not them; Qrow had already likewise refused to share more secrets with Pyrrha until she became the Maiden), then even Ironwood can't tell Ozpin whether or not putting someone's Aura into someone ELSE will even WORK. Or, even if it DID work, whether or not it would transfer a Seasonal Maiden's power, or simply cause it to leave for the next host or the missing half.

    * Amber's lip pulled back to reveal her teeth, between camera shots. A sign of her worsening condition, or, as someone suggested, she can actually hear everything and she's becoming distressed?
     
    Triggerhappy said:
    Actually I assume what just happened was the backup plan. No more and no less. Yang is disqualified, and probably arrested, Cinder's team gets to advance with someone else in Mercury's place. They win they win, they lose they still win.

    Really the only person who might be able to shed doubt on what just happened is Coco, which would probably require someone to suspect foul play in her presence, and it's questionable if she even remembers the last few seconds of her fight.
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    I don't know about that.

    Even barring the fact that we're privy to information that people in setting aren't, I'd still think this is wonky.

    I mean, Yang won the fight. Fairly decisively at that.

    It would be one thing if she lost. Girl with a temper loses a big fight on international tv and takes a cheap shot at the guy who beat her? That's understandable.

    But the winner of the fight suddenly doing that? During what is apparently the "Good fight" bit between her and the loser? Not so understandable.

    It's the sort of thing that would make me wonder what the fuck is going on and start asking questions.
     
    Nervaqus987 said:
    I don't know about that.

    Even barring the fact that we're privy to information that people in setting aren't, I'd still think this is wonky.

    I mean, Yang won the fight. Fairly decisively at that.

    It would be one thing if she lost. Girl with a temper loses a big fight on international tv and takes a cheap shot at the guy who beat her? That's understandable.

    But the winner of the fight suddenly doing that? During what is apparently the "Good fight" bit between her and the loser? Not so understandable.

    It's the sort of thing that would make me wonder what the fuck is going on and start asking questions.
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    Also, this is RT. They already pleasantly surprised us after Dance Dance Infiltration by having Ironwood recognize that Ruby WASN'T the intruder and had, in fact, attempted to stop the intruder.

    Yang has a lot of character witnesses to support the fact that what everyone saw is absolutely bizarre. They also live in a world of Soul Magic Bullshit (with Ozpin and his crew knowing about the existence of stuff even Remnant considers "magic"), so when a suspect begins to claim that she saw something completely different from what happened on camera, "Semblance-induced hallucinations" are a possible explanation which HAS to have cropped up before in legal history.

    In fact, all competitors might be REQUIRED to submit information on their Semblances to the judges, who can simultaneously check for cheating AND inform the audience when someone is obviously using their Semblance. In which case, though no one saw Emerald's Semblance being used against Coco, Port and Bart both know what it is.

    As others have pointed out, Cinder may not intend for this ploy to last long under scrutiny, especially not if she is going to follow it up with an override on all of the Atlas robots, and then bait the Grimm into attacking.

    Cinder might just need one huge distraction after another that gets Ozpin personally involved and keeps him away from the Vault where Amber is hidden.
     
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    Sunder the Gold said:
    In fact, all competitors might be REQUIRED to submit information on their Semblances to the judges, who can simultaneously check for cheating AND inform the audience when someone is obviously using their Semblance. In which case, though no one saw Emerald's Semblance being used against Coco, Port and Bart both know what it is.
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    OTOH it would be easy for CNME to lie about their semblances in the paperwork. Though Coco should be able testify that she experienced something similar while fighting Emerald.
     
    Crossposting from the SB thread:

    WhiteDragon25 said:
    You know what I just realized? I think that Cinder's plan isn't just to obtain the rest of the Autumn Maiden's powers. Everything she's done at this point is far too elaborate for such a simple goal like that.

    Think about it:

    - She had Torchwick plunder THE ENTIRE CITY'S SUPPLY OF DUST, stripped it all down to the bone. She's sitting on a massive stockpile of weapons-grade Dust - a warchest, in other words. Plus, with Vale's stockpile of Dust so dangerously low, the Hunters of Beacon may have to rely on imported supplies of Dust from Atlas's military forces orbiting right at that moment... which leads to...

    - Cinder's Chessmaster Virus infecting the entirety of Beacon's computer network, along with potentially the Atlesian fleet's network as well. She has full backdoor access to everything going on, and she's been using it to manipulate the Vytal Festival Tournament's outcome. Of course, that's not the only thing she's got her claws onto - she also now has access to Penny's schematics and design details, meaning that Penny herself could be infected and hijacked as well... and if Penny can be infected, so can the rest of Atlas's military robots...

    - Speaking of Atlas's robots, the Paladin prototypes that Torchwick had stolen for the White Fang. While Roman's rampage was a little setback for Cinder's plans, since the incident likely tipped off Atlas of what the White Fang may be planning, it also had the benefit of inflaming tensions and paranoia among the populace, negative emotions which draw in the Grimm. However, that's not why I'm bringing up the Paladins: it's the fact that the White Fang has the Paladins at all. Military-grade equipment, which probably requires quite a bit of Dust to fuel it... which Torchwick has an ample supply of, for obvious reasons...

    - And now we get back to Cinder's overall reason for doing this: getting to Amber, the Autumn Maiden. I highly doubt that Cinder's out for just Amber's powers, given the amount of interest she's shown for Phyrra and Beacon's other Hunters-in-training. She very probably figures that Phyrra's been chosen by Ozpin's cabal to become the new Autumn Maiden, and wants to sabotage any chance of that happening. As for the other targets of interest: remember how the legend is about Four Maidens? And prior discussion here suspects Winter Schnee and Summer Rose to be (or to have been) among the other possible candidates... given that Summer Rose is dead, however, that leaves Ruby Rose, her daughter to be the one to inherit the Summer Maiden's powers (theoretically). To sum it up: Cinder's also after the other Seasonal Maidens as well. And as for the Old Man in the legend...

    - Ozpin may be the figure in question, if the theory posited here is correct. Which leads to the obvious question: exactly how old is Ozpin? That legend is thousands of years old, and its been hundreds of years since the truth behind it was common knowledge, so the only logical explanation... is that Ozpin is somehow immortal. However, he is still very much a human being, having made plenty of mistakes in his long lifetime, and is by no means invincible. If he truly is the Old Man that granted magical powers to those Young Maidens, then whatever powers he has must be close to god-like... but if even gods can be killed...

    - Finally, the Grand Deception of the Fall: Yang's brutal and unprovoked attack of a defeated Mercury in the Vytal Tournament Finals. While we know that the reality is that she was framed, and the whole scene was a set-up, no-one else in the Stadium's audience knows that. While the resulting investigation may indeed reveal the truth of the matter, given how many posters have already noted flaws in the deception (flaws and inconsistencies that should easily be noted by the characters as well), destroying Yang and Team RWBY's reputation and eliminating them as a threat are not the primary objective (though they would be a welcome side bonus): the real goal is to set off the emotional powerkeg of an already restless Vale populace, lighting a bonfire signal of negative emotions that would draw in the Grimm for miles around. The Mountain Glenn Breach was but a prelude to what's to really come.


    To tie it altogether, let me present my theory on what Cinder Fall's real plan is:

    She plans to obtain Godhood in the form of the powers of the Four Maidens, and Old Man Ozpin's immortality. However, even that is not enough for just one woman to bring the world under her control. Hence, the involvement of Roman Torchwick, the White Fang, and the Atlesian military.

    The Chessmaster Virus would give Cinder total subversive control over the Atlas war machines when the time is right, the White Fang would come out of the shadows as her personal army, and Torchwick's wealth of looted Dust would be able to fuel their thrust to overthrow the Kingdom of Vale and the Hunters of Beacon; for after they fight off the hordes of Grimm drawn in by the Vytal Uproar, battered, beaten, and bloody, exhausted of their strength and what little remaining Dust supplies they have, and possibly numerous of Beacon's best and brightest Hunters cut down before their prime, the Atlas military's combat robots will turn on them all, right as the White Fang swoops in to take advantage of the chaos.

    As all of this was going on, Cinder would've already obtained the Autumn Maiden's powers for herself, and with an entire army of Atlas killer robots and White Fang zealots under her command, she can seize the other Maidens in a mere moment, all the possible candidates already present in the Vytal Colosseum... if worst comes to worst, she can just simply drop it onto Vale itself, wiping out all of its people and its Grimm invaders at the same time.

    And now, having obtained unimaginable magical power, and command of a vast, unstoppable army, she can begin a campaign of conquest of Vacuo, Atlas, Mistral, Menagerie, and anyone else who is left to dare oppose her in dominating all of Remnant.
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    Now, I fall into the camp that think what Yang saw was real and everyone else saw what was basically Neo/someone's hard light illusion out on the field but the way Mercury's voice shifted when he yelled at Yang before attacking does make me question that.

    JarringToaster said:
    ...Well she did bust up a guy's nightclub, and then come back for a Strawberry Sunrise that she didn't pay for.
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    Eh Juniors a criminal who lends/hires out muscle to people like Roman Torchwick and Junior didn't seem to ticked about the whole thing... yet.

    Sunder the Gold said:
    Her blasts have always "gone through" everyone, ever since the Yellow Trailer.
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    Fair point, guess it just looked more 'through' this time.

    JarringToaster said:
    Although I'd like to agree with that, it's probably debunked by Jaune, who doesn't know what his own Semblance is.
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    While a fair point, Jaune not having a Semblance and people not saying what theirs is feel like two different things.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    Yang has a lot of character witnesses to support the fact that what everyone saw is absolutely bizarre. They also live in a world of Soul Magic Bullshit (with Ozpin and his crew knowing about the existence of stuff even Remnant considers "magic"), so when a suspect begins to claim that she saw something completely different from what happened on camera, "Semblance-induced hallucinations" are a possible explanation which HAS to have cropped up before in legal history.
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    Even if the Truth comes out, people are going to 'know' what they saw, I doubt it will be resolved fast enough for Yang to rejoin the tournament.

    In fact, all competitors might be REQUIRED to submit information on their Semblances to the judges, who can simultaneously check for cheating AND inform the audience when someone is obviously using their Semblance. In which case, though no one saw Emerald's Semblance being used against Coco, Port and Bart both know what it is.
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    Question. I may be remembering wrong but Remnant doesn't have the means to remotely analyze a semblance, at least under field conditions, right? So has Emerald been faking a less flexible semblance?
     
    Zam said:
    Eh Juniors a criminal who lends/hires out muscle to people like Roman Torchwick and Junior didn't seem to ticked about the whole thing... yet.
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    She still pretty much started the fight...and wrecked his club. I'm pretty sure Junior was ticked, but didn't want her to wreck his club again.
    While a fair point, Jaune not having a Semblance and people not saying what theirs is feel like two different things.
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    Which would bring the question why a person participating in a fighting tournament full of Hunters who have trained for years not know what his Semblance is. Everyone is stated to have a Semblance, so a person in the tournament not knowing what theirs is should be a bit questionable.

    The point is, the submission of information about one's Semblance is likely not required.
     
    JarringToaster said:
    She still pretty much started the fight...and wrecked his club. I'm pretty sure Junior was ticked, but didn't want her to wreck his club again.
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    Sure, I never said Yang didn't do those things, but given Junior's a crime boss I tend to regard what she did as "going Batman" or at least I call it that for various reasons, and so I don't see it as a huge mark against her character.

    JarringToaster said:
    Which would bring the question why a person participating in a fighting tournament full of Hunters who have trained for years not know what his Semblance is. Everyone is stated to have a Semblance, so a person in the tournament not knowing what theirs is should be a bit questionable.

    The point is, the submission of information about one's Semblance is likely not required.
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    I think when 'everyone has a Semblance" its more along the lines of everyone has the potential to manifest a Semblance, that does not necessarily mean a fighter has the skill or power to do so yet.
     
    So apparently the Faunus Rights Revolution that led to the birth of the peaceful White Fang lasted about three years, and it took five or so years before they got sick of the status quo, got a new leader and turned to violence. I'm beginning to wonder, could this have taken place during Blake and the main casts lifetime? Like maybe they were babies when the war was being fought but could that be the case? Could that also be why Raven left, to go fight in (I assume) Mantle/Atlas where I'd expect the most heated fighting to be taking place?
     
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    JarringToaster said:
    Although I'd like to agree with that, it's probably debunked by Jaune, who doesn't know what his own Semblance is.
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    So he writes down: "I don't know. Maybe some kind of barrier?"

    They might question him, but he can honestly say he doesn't really know, and his teammates can back that up. Neither would he have any official records at school to contradict him.

    Meanwhile, Emerald has apparently spent enough time at Haven Academy that everyone believes she's actually a student there. It's POSSIBLE that she's been careful enough that no one knows what her Semblance is, but no one is going to believe that she doesn't have one.

    Meanwhile, it's too easy to believe that Jaune really doesn't.


    Zam said:
    While a fair point, Jaune not having a Semblance and people not saying what theirs is feel like two different things.
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    Right.

    "I don't know" and "I refuse to say" are entirely different. And does it seem likely that Emerald could claim to have a completely different sort of Semblance than her instructors can verify having (not) witnessed?



    Triggerhappy said:
    Even if the Truth comes out, people are going to 'know' what they saw, I doubt it will be resolved fast enough for Yang to rejoin the tournament.
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    Certainly not. Of course, I'm pretty sure the tournament is never going to get the chance to finish at this rate, though it might get as far as the Final Match.


    Question. I may be remembering wrong but Remnant doesn't have the means to remotely analyze a semblance, at least under field conditions, right? So has Emerald been faking a less flexible semblance?
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    She could maybe fake a less flexible form of "cause someone to hallucinate", but I don't think she can fake her Semblance's nature as causing hallucinations.
     
    Sunder the Gold said:
    So he writes down: "I don't know. Maybe some kind of barrier?"

    They might question him, but he can honestly say he doesn't really know, and his teammates can back that up. Neither would he have any official records at school to contradict him.

    Meanwhile, Emerald has apparently spent enough time at Haven Academy that everyone believes she's actually a student there. It's POSSIBLE that she's been careful enough that no one knows what her Semblance is, but no one is going to believe that she doesn't have one.

    Meanwhile, it's too easy to believe that Jaune really doesn't.
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    My issue is, simply put, how did they deal with someone using a Semblance to try and cheat in the tournament before/ I mean, it has to have come up, unless we're going to go out on a limb and say that Neo/Emerald are the only people on Remnant ever who have developed illusion related abilities, which is frankly ridiculous. And in a world where superpowers are a real thing, there has to have been some planning to deal with that in an official tournament like this, where some people definitely will try to cheat to win if given the chance.
     
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