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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Sasha said:
    The Penny vs Cinder fight. This is the lesser of the two disappointments, but still played a big part in me not enjoying the episode.

    I'll admit that I might be letting my salt over Penny's death (see the next spoiler for my thoughts on that can of worms) color my analysis here, but I found Penny's showing to be thoroughly underwhelming. This volume had already pretty much cemented Penny as the most powerful member of the good guys' team. First, she held off the AceOps on her own in V8C3, but more importantly in V8C5, she soundly defeated Cinder while protecting her father and the CCT/Amity. Yet in the finale, despite having allies to help her fight Cinder, she's kicked around, barely uses her elemental powers, and is dealt a fatal blow while Cinder's aura doesn't even break. Come to think of it, I don't actually recall seeing Penny's aura break either, but she still gets stabbed with Cinder's Grimm arm. Maybe I just missed that part though.
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    Maybe we could chalk it up to the fact Penny had a brand new body that she wasn't used to?
     
    Remember when
    Ruby panicked so much over not having Crescent Rose on hand that she got her ass kicked by a White Fang grunt?



    link

    Now she only panics for a moment before collecting herself, staring a powerhouse like Neo down like a stone cold badass, goads her into getting close and then smacks runs circles around her with her Semblance before knocking her off the edge. If not for Cinder being so on point and shooting Ruby in the back she would have solidly defeated Neo.


    And can we talk a bit about how on-point Cinder was in this episode? Pretty much every time it looked like Team RWBY and JPW were about to turn things around she did something to fuck the good guys over. Weiss helps Ruby and is about to turn the tides against Neo? Create an explosion under them so Weiss' aura will break and Ruby will be alone and off balance when Neo returns. Ruby manages to get one over Neo anyway? Blast her in the back before she can capitalize. Ruby manages to hold onto Neo? Take back the Relic and get rid of both of them. Penny throws Blake to save a falling Ruby? Blast Penny while she's throwing and then cut Gambol Shroud so both Ruby and Blake falls, taking away the only person that can counter you in the process. Have to choose between getting the staff, fighting Winter or taking out Weiss and Jaune? Why not go for a twofer by blasting Weiss of the ramp so that Winter will be too distracted to stop you from grabbing the staff? Etc.


    Seriously, Cinder did some WORK this episode.



    Some nonsense memeing to cheer us up

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    Sasha said:
    I'm honestly baffled by Penny's death. Like, I genuinely don't understand why the writers decided it was a good idea and that the way it happened was the best way to execute it (no pun intended).

    First of all, it was very unsatisfying after all the buildup Penny's arc had throughout the volume. Her struggle against Watts' virus was a huge plot thread that spanned over half the volume. She managed to fight back against it with the help of her friends in V8C11, and was then triumphantly freed from it in the next episode, finally becoming a 'real girl' thanks to the Staff of Creation. It seemed like her story was just beginning... and then it was abruptly cut short. Her death was shocking, all the more for coming on the heels of her triumphant transformation. But shock value seems like a poor trade for the death of such an interesting and loveable character.

    Next, there's the part where Jaune, a character that has barely interacted with Penny this volume (or the last... or in any other volume...), is the one to carry out the 'mercy kill'. Really, the only connection I can see is the one so many other people have pointed out, Jaune's trauma with losing Pyrrha, but I think that connection is tenuous at best. It made me feel like Penny's final moments were more about Jaune than Penny herself.

    Finally, there's the part where this whole "Kill me to transfer the Maiden powers to someone trustworthy" dilemma was already explored in V8C11. Not only was the conflict prompting the dilemma, a battle for control of her mind and body, more tense than what we got in the finale, but it was also being posed to Ruby, Penny's best friend, making the awful choice much more emotional and meaningful. I honestly could have overlooked the abrupt end to Penny's story if it was Ruby who did the deed, or heck, even Weiss. The decision to have it be Jaune is just... so bizarre to me.

    About the only reason to have done things this way that I can think of is to set up some kind of conflict between Ruby and Jaune in Volume 9, but again, that seems like a waste, not to mention to dubious choice of waiting until the next freaking volume to explore. I've seen people speculating that they might be able to bring Penny back, but I'm very skeptical of CRWBY's ability to pull that off without making it seem contrived. Another drawback to having this happen at the end of a volume, I suppose.
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    Well first Penny's been dead and brought back to life before and people seemed to like that. Secondly, do we have to do this dance at the end of every single season? Where the CRWBY does something major and people spend weeks or months talking about how it was the stupidest worst writing choice ever, and then when we finally see where they were going it all makes sense and none of the complaints make sense in retrospect?
     
    VolantRedX said:
    Well first Penny's been dead and brought back to life before and people seemed to like that. Secondly, do we have to do this dance at the end of every single season? Where the CRWBY does something major and people spend weeks or months talking about how it was the stupidest worst writing choice ever, and then when we finally see where they were going it all makes sense and none of the complaints make sense in retrospect?
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    Sure, but until that reveal we have to put up with the constant 'stupidest worst writing choice ever' etc etc. Yes there is vindication at the end of the tunnel, but that light can be a long way off.
     
    Based on a suggestion on Tumblr I googled the Iroquois/Huron creation myth "The Woman Who Fell From The Sky".

    Here's what I found:

    Woman Who Fell From the Sky


    In the mythology of the Iroquois and Huron of North America, the Woman Who Fell From the Sky is a primal ancestor. Also known as Sky Woman or Ataensic, she plays a central role in creation.

    According to legend, the Woman Who Fell From the Sky lived in a world above the sky. One day she became pregnant and fell out of heaven. Some stories say that she fell while chasing a bear, while others say that the tree of life was uprooted and she tumbled through the hole left behind.


    As the woman fell, ducks flew beneath her to slow her descent. She landed in a vast watery place, with no land in sight. Turtle arose from the water and let her rest on his back. Meanwhile, Muskrat dove beneath the water and brought up mud to form the earth. Soon after, the woman gave birth to twin sons—one good and one evil—who created all the natural features of the earth and sky. According to some stories, she gave birth to a daughter, and that woman was the mother of the twins.


    The good twin shaped the sky and created the sun. He also made the moon, stars, mountains, and many plants and animals. The evil twin set out to destroy his brother's creations. He created darkness to drive the sun from the sky and made monsters, storms, and various kinds of dangerous beasts. When creation was finished, the brothers fought. The good twin won and banished his evil brother from the earth. Some stories say that the evil twin became ruler of the underworld and still tries to spread evil in the world.


    See also Creation Stories ; Native American Mythology ; Twins .
    Read more: Woman Who Fell From the Sky - Myth Encyclopedia - mythology, legend, tree, world, creation, Native American, life, evil


    To quote Blake: "This is all sounding very familiar".


    Also there are several layers of brilliance with the title choice.

    After the scene with Salem and Cinder in the vault concludes the show makes all the dialogue (such as Qrow trying to contact RWBY) silent. Meaning that in the show itself The Final Word is the last word Cinder said to Ironwood. In other words "Checkmate". So by this reading the unoffial actual title of this episode (which fits the one word title theme) is Checkmate. Signifying how Cinder/Salem have completely won the chess match with Ironwood and Atlas. And from Cinder's perspective/belief possibly even won the war entirely.


    Alternatively if you include the end credits then the final word of the episode is "Alive" which could have a lot of meanings.

    It seems to be a Penny song so it could be hinting at how she's still not Dead Dead.
    Or since it shows up right before the end credit scene of Crescent Rose in the shallow sea or wherever this is it could just be referencing how Ruby and the others who fell into the void are not dead.
    Or it could be seen as a counter to "checkmate". Yes Atlas the city has been destroyed and a lot of good (and some bad) people have died, but the people of Atlas are still alive for the most part, many of the Ace Ops are alive and have had a change of heart, there is still a living Winter Maiden on team good, Ruby, Blake, Weiss, Yang, Neo and Jaune are still alive. Where there is life there is hope, so despite the many terrible things that have happened there is still a chance to turn things around, to have a rematch so to speak.




    And also the title is a pun. Every title in volume eight has just been one word, but that theme is presumably for this volume only. So with the final episode of the volume here there will be no more one word titles (at least not as part of a theme) making this last episode "the final word" of Volume 8. :D
     
    *groans*
    We have people unsure if Ironwood and Watts are dead......
    Just.....why people?? Why? Yes we don't see the bodies, but this is one of numerous instances in this show where you shouldn't NEED to see a body to check someone off. Watts was trapped in a burning room. Ironwood lowed his gun and head in resignation of his fate. Atlas crashed down and was then covered by water.
    They. Are. DEAD!
     
    Pugman said:
    *groans*
    We have people unsure if Ironwood and Watts are dead......
    Just.....why people?? Why? Yes we don't see the bodies, but this is one of numerous instances in this show where you shouldn't NEED to see a body to check someone off. Watts was trapped in a burning room. Ironwood lowed his gun and head in resignation of his fate. Atlas crashed down and was then covered by water.
    They. Are. DEAD!
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    I honestly thought that Ironwood was going to end up with Salem at the end there.
     
    Pugman said:
    *groans*
    We have people unsure if Ironwood and Watts are dead......
    Just.....why people?? Why? Yes we don't see the bodies, but this is one of numerous instances in this show where you shouldn't NEED to see a body to check someone off. Watts was trapped in a burning room. Ironwood lowed his gun and head in resignation of his fate. Atlas crashed down and was then covered by water.
    They. Are. DEAD!
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    Like how Cinder was frozen solid and sent falling into the abyss or how everyone got knocked into the void?
     

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    But seriously though, this reminds me of a thought I had. Winter flying by using snow and creating glittering light sure was a pretty look huh? Made her look pretty mystical right? Almost like she was shedding fairy dust, Tinkerbell style. Only hers was blue. A blue fairy. And Penny is part of her now. Third time's the charm? 🤡
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I honestly thought that Ironwood was going to end up with Salem at the end there.
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    Nah. It's far more awesome that she never even spoke to him, hell she barely even acknowledged him. Hit him right in the ego that was on display this ep.


    Mook said:
    But seriously though, this reminds me of a thought I had. Winter flying by using snow and creating glittering light sure was a pretty look huh? Made her look pretty mystical right? Almost like she was shedding fairy dust, Tinkerbell style. Only hers was blue. A blue fairy. And Penny is part of her now. Third time's the charm? 🤡
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    Yeah... Penny's story isn't done yet.
     
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    VolantRedX said:
    I honestly thought that Ironwood was going to end up with Salem at the end there.
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    They said that Vols 8 and 9 can be considered one volume so I'm definitely buying that
    a.) Penny probably isn't permanently dead, but may appear in spirit form to guide the heroes b.) that there's going to be a much more triumphant feeling at the end of Vol 9 (I wouldn't be surprised if Ruby and the others show up when all hope seems lost and Cinder FLIPS HER SHIT even more than she's ever done and c.) that things are going to build naturally.

    That said I can understand some criticisms. The Volume felt kinda bloated and I've seen people who like the show complain about the pacing at times (one acquaintance compared it to that of a wounded slug.)

    All that said I am absolutely excited for what comes next
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Nah. It's far more awesome that she never even spoke to him, hell she barely even acknowledged him. Hit him right in the ego that was on display this ep.
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    Why would she even bother with him? He's served his purpose (if not to the extent she would have preferred) and doesn't have any traits she'd want as a subordinate. As a result, he's beneath her notice.
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Yeah... Penny's story isn't done yet.
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    Yes, she can be Winter's very own mental helper/conscience/trouble-shooting guide.
    "Salutations! You appear to be trying to find a way for your powers to solve a problem, would you like help with that?"
    :D
     
    Okay considering that besides the main girls, only Neo and Jaune fell into the abyss. I very strongly suspect that island is some sort of afterlife as Neo is still deeply mourning her boss and Jaune of course lost Pyrrha.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    The dude literally wanted to run away from her no matter what. I'm pretty sure he never had the idea of joining with her at the back of his head, especially learning what became of Lionheart.
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    I mean Hazel's backstory is literally that he tried to kill her for days and lost all hope when he realized she just coming back. Seeing her back after everything he went through on top of having his every plan and goal literally come crashing down around him would be a pretty similar motivation.
     
    One thing that does bug me is Qrow panicking when he can't get in touch with anyone. Winter w\knew the whole plan, Marrow was in the elevator with her when she got read in, and I can't imagine they didn't pass that on to Qrow and Robyn. As far as he knows everyone should be in Vacuo by the time Atlas hits and intercontinental communication is down because the Amity plan failed, so even if everything went exactly how it was supposed to they would be out of contact range.
     
    Pugman said:
    *groans*
    We have people unsure if Ironwood and Watts are dead......
    Just.....why people?? Why? Yes we don't see the bodies, but this is one of numerous instances in this show where you shouldn't NEED to see a body to check someone off. Watts was trapped in a burning room. Ironwood lowed his gun and head in resignation of his fate. Atlas crashed down and was then covered by water.
    They. Are. DEAD!
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    I explained my reasoning in my comment.

    Either way, what does it matter? It's speculation before the next season, no need to make a big deal out of it.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Like how Cinder was frozen solid and sent falling into the abyss or how everyone got knocked into the void?
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    And there was a difference between them. -.-
    RWBY are THE main characters. Cinder is basically THE main villain.
    Ironwood, Watts, Roman, etc are NOT.


    ---------


    oh god......I just realized something we might end up seeing in fanfics going forward
    5 girls and 1 guy on an island with no idea how to get off and back to civilization......Where does that train usually lead????
    *shudders*
    Harem King Jaune has yet another type of smutfic to use.
    Brothers Protect Us.
     
    Mahrac said:
    One thing that does bug me is Qrow panicking when he can't get in touch with anyone. Winter w\knew the whole plan, Marrow was in the elevator with her when she got read in, and I can't imagine they didn't pass that on to Qrow and Robyn. As far as he knows everyone should be in Vacuo by the time Atlas hits and intercontinental communication is down because the Amity plan failed, so even if everything went exactly how it was supposed to they would be out of contact range.
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    To be fair, watching an entire city be destroyed in front of you is not conductive to logical thinking.

    jwolfe_beta said:
    Yes, she can be Winter's very own mental helper/conscience/trouble-shooting guide.
    "Salutations! You appear to be trying to find a way for your powers to solve a problem, would you like help with that?"
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    Using her new powers to make a little ice scuplture of Penny, she's surprised when the sculpture moves.
    "SALUTATIONS!"
    "AHHH!?!"

    Teen Spirit said:
    Okay considering that besides the main girls, only Neo and Jaune fell into the abyss. I very strongly suspect that island is some sort of afterlife as Neo is still deeply mourning her boss and Jaune of course lost Pyrrha.
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    "Neo, honestly, I'm dissapointed in you. I raised you to have more sense than this- And now we're hugging. Okay..."

    Pugman said:
    And there was a difference between them. -.-
    RWBY are THE main characters. Cinder is basically THE main villain.
    Ironwood, Watts, Roman, etc are NOT.


    ---------


    oh god......I just realized something we might end up seeing in fanfics going forward
    5 girls and 1 guy on an island with no idea how to get off and back to civilization......Where does that train usually lead????
    *shudders*
    Harem King Jaune has yet another type of smutfic to use.
    Brothers Protect Us.
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    Nah. Starting point for crossover fics.
     
    Mahrac said:
    and I can't imagine they didn't pass that on to Qrow and Robyn.
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    Really? Because I can totally imagine that Marrow and Winter didn't pass along the girls' whole plan to Qrow and Robyn, what with time pressure and everything else that needed to be conveyed. And so Marrow can have a scene in V9 where he consoles a distraught Qrow with the knowledge that the girls are supposed to be in Vacuo and gives him a goal of getting there. So he can have his hope crushed all over again when he does.
     
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