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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Pugman said:
    It's called GTFO of Solitas. I mean, Thor and crew had to abandon Asgard and yet "Asgard" was not "gone" because it's people survived. Salem is occupied screwing around with Jimmy thinking everything is well in hand, meanwhile the people and our heroes will live to see another day and eventually build again.
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    And then Thanos comes in and kills half of the ship.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    And then Thanos comes in and kills half of the ship.
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    And I don't think Thor and the others were expecting Tinky Winky to show up and pimp slap them. So that was not on them and SO not the point I'm making.
    The fact remains that when under stress Ironwood chose to abandon the people he had a duty to protect, while Whitley doesn't really gain anything from coming up with this sound plan in the middle of a crisis, going through with said plan, and making sure the plan is activated while in danger before finally leaving the room. In one moment the scrawny, smarmy nugget showed more more compassion for people he had no duty to, let alone care for just a few days ago, then the man whose god damn job it is to give a shit. Whitley was raised and trained by one of the most repulsive men in the series, and in one evening showed himself a better man than a guy who has trained and been chosen to protect people. THAT is the point.
     
    Pugman said:
    And I don't think Thor and the others were expecting Tinky Winky to show up and pimp slap them. So that was not on them and SO not the point I'm making.
    The fact remains that when under stress Ironwood chose to abandon the people he had a duty to protect, while Whitley doesn't really gain anything from coming up with this sound plan in the middle of a crisis, going through with said plan, and making sure the plan is activated while in danger before finally leaving the room. In one moment the scrawny, smarmy nugget showed more more compassion for people he had no duty to, let alone care for just a few days ago, then the man whose god damn job it is to give a shit. Whitley was raised and trained by one of the most repulsive men in the series, and in one evening showed himself a better man than a guy who has trained and been chosen to protect people. THAT is the point.
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    I can only give a like of some sort, not a standing ovation.
     
    Pugman said:
    The fact remains that when under stress Ironwood chose to abandon the people he had a duty to protect, while Whitley doesn't really gain anything from coming up with this sound plan in the middle of a crisis, going through with said plan, and making sure the plan is activated while in danger before finally leaving the room. In one moment the scrawny, smarmy nugget showed more more compassion for people he had no duty to, let alone care for just a few days ago, then the man whose god damn job it is to give a shit. Whitley was raised and trained by one of the most repulsive men in the series, and in one evening showed himself a better man than a guy who has trained and been chosen to protect people. THAT is the point.
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    Well, when you put it that way, it sounds like Whitley made a decision that was completely unmotivated by any of his established character or given circumstances, and purely by the staff's desire to make him more sympathetic. Well it's not gonna work on me, you hear? Sympathetic Whitley is not going to happen.

    (Sympathetic James isn't going to happen either. Or Winter.)
     
    Zimmerwald1915 said:
    Well, when you put it that way, it sounds like Whitley made a decision that was completely unmotivated by any of his established character or given circumstances, and purely by the staff's desire to make him more sympathetic. Well it's not gonna work on me, you hear? Sympathetic Whitley is not going to happen.

    (Sympathetic James isn't going to happen either. Or Winter.)
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    But it wasn't done JUST to make him sympathetic. And remember, a good deal of his "established character" is from the grooming from Jac and always being under the man's thumb. We all remember how much of a bitch Weiss was back at the beginning, right? This is just what Weiss would of been if she never had Winter looking out for her. Whitley had neither of his sisters, probably next to no recollection of Grampa Nicholas, and Klein can only do so much. But now that Jac is not around, the world is falling apart around him, and Weiss and her friends are, there is not much reason for Whitley to be a non-helpful shit. He still has the bite in his words, which is to be expected of how he was raised all his life.
    Remember, themes of this show include stuff like "Keep Moving Forward", "Trust Love", and to do the right thing because it is the proper thing to do and not because you expect a reward for it. Whitley has, at least in a small part, chosen to try and be good and be helpful. And he has done so without showing any expectation of being praised or rewarded. He called Klein back because Nora needed the help. He brought up the cargo fleet because they needed a plan and Weiss mentioning their resources made him remember "oh ya we have that". And not once has he tried to pat himself on the back or preen about being a good man.
     
    Over the past few episodes, we have seen for the first time who Whitley is without his abuser in a poisition to manipulate him, and surprise surprise, it's not the act he put on to keep jacqueass happy.
     
    It's important to note that Whitley Calling Klein to help Nora is probably the first time he's had a chance to help someone without being prompted by someone else. He took that chance, and he got positive reinforcement from it.

    Whitley's actions in this episode are thus an example of how a positive environment is good for people
     
    I KNEW IT
    I've already found at least 1 Ruby!Hound fic and 2 or 3 Ladybug fics in response to today's episode. XD Those shippers have been starving and tonight...THEY FEAST!
     
    Pugman said:
    Makes you wonder and worry how Blake was when Adam was around. Probably very quiet and submissive. *shudders at the thought* EW.
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    I definitely think this side of Blake we've been seeing this volume and the previous one - actively making jokes, laughing often - says a lot about that, honestly. She's never really lacked in sass or humor, not even in the Black trailer, but this is a... cuter, way of expressing herself.
     
    Parabola said:
    I definitely think this side of Blake we've been seeing this volume and the previous one - actively making jokes, laughing often - says a lot about that, honestly. She's never really lacked in sass or humor, not even in the Black trailer, but this is a... cuter, way of expressing herself.
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    She got some healing in Minagerie, and then a bit more on the way to Argus, and then more in Atlas. She's had time to grow and relax.
     
    Parabola said:
    I definitely think this side of Blake we've been seeing this volume and the previous one - actively making jokes, laughing often - says a lot about that, honestly. She's never really lacked in sass or humor, not even in the Black trailer, but this is a... cuter, way of expressing herself.
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    Well given that she has both reunited with Yang and the others AND no longer has to worry about Adam/Fang coming back to haunt her and hurt the people she loves, ya she is finally free to express herself in all ways. Now if only Salem would leave and Ironwood cooled his jets, the Bees could finally have a proper date night!
     
    Zam said:
    Haha, we're in danger!
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    Man this is giving me some serious Hellfire vibes with how the music gets 10x more creepy and meaningful when you know what the ominous latin chorus is actually saying. 🤯


    tvtropes.org

    The Hunchback of Notre Dame / Fridge - TV Tropes

    As a Fridge subpage, all spoilers are unmarked as per policy. You Have Been Warned. The Disney stage musicalFridge Horror The musical makes the talking gargoyles much more obviously hallucinations/wish fulfillments by Quasimodo's damaged mind.
    tvtropes.org tvtropes.org
    • The lyrical juxtaposition in Hellfire between Frollo and the Confiteor is just about perfect. Both begin with an appeal to various holy figures. Frollo sings about what he sees and thinks when Esmeralda enters his mind; the holy men at the same time are singing, "quia peccavi nimis cogitatione", meaning, "I have sinned in thought. Then Frollo's break with the spirit of the prayer becomes even more evident:
    Frollo: It's not my fault!
    Choir: Mea culpa! note ​Through my fault
    Frollo: I'm not to blame!
    Choir: Mea culpa!
    Frollo: It is the gypsy girl, the witch who set this flame!
    Choir: Mea maxima culpa! note ​Through my most grievous fault​
    • The Confiteor also has a repition of Mea Culp (two times the line exactly, the third, Mea Maxima Culpa). Hellfire repeats the chant counter to each line delivered by Frollo during this segment. In the first two Mea Culpa chants, Frollo denies his own fault to sin. In the final line, Frollo has blamed someone else for his sin. This is repeated twice (Denials of Guilt: It's not my fault/I'm not to blame It's not my fault/ It is God's Plan (Catholic teaching is Humans are capable of free choice and thus are not held to God's plan as an automoton). Blame Lines: It is the gypsy girl [Esmerelda] and He [God] made the devil so much stronger than a man. The final line is outragous as at this point, Frollo is asking the Virgin Mary to help him rape or kill Esmerelda because God... who among other things is her SON... made him think that way.)

    • The whole song up until the conclusion of the Mea Culpa sequence is directly counter to the Confiteor. Officially, Hellfire opens with the opening lines of the Confiteor as song by the Archdeacon and the congregation. However, they don't appear counter to Frollo... unless you understand the meaning of the opening lines. The person praying the Confiteor is confessing to "Almighty God, the Virgin Mary, the Archangel Michael, The Holy Apostles of Jesus, and All the Saints in Heaven (Catholic Saints are people who are definitely in heaven, so a lot of people)" which is a lot of people... this is all said before Frollo picks up, opening by declaring his pride in his virtue.

      After this, the chanting finishes the invocation by "And to you, Father." It may seem like a declaration to God, but recall, that he's the very first person named in the declaration of having sinned. "Father" in this part isn't God the Father, but the title of a priest. In the sacrement of reconciliation, an important componant is declaring your sins, not just to those in heaven, but those on Earth with you. In fact, the modern prayer invokes only God and "you my brothers and sisters" instead of all the saints (It is only admitting you did sin, not which sin speciffically you committed).

      By not going to the church, or even bothering saying his thoughts out loud to a single priest, Frollo is failing confession by not humbling himself. The next line of the Confiteor is spoken after he claims he's pure than the crowd (best demonstrated in the chant in Notre Dame, who, who are pure specifically because of their public declaration of having sinned). He then questions why he thinks of Esmeralda and cannot stop met by the line (In Thought), signifying Frollo knows damn well why he has her on the brain: Lustful intent.

      The next line, which he mentions "the sun caught in her raven hair/ Is blazing through me out of all control" are call backs to Esmerelda's dancing at the Feast of Fools AND Frollo's creepy sniffing of her hair in Notre Dame which he justifies as imagining a noose around her neck. This is paired off with the chanting of "In Word and Deed" at which point Frollo admits he is falling into the sin of Lust. This is imporant as the Catholic Faith teaches that the componenants of being in a state of sin is both committing actions (deeds) while knowing that they are sinful (words) and intending to sin (thoughts). At this point Frollo is in Sin and denies it was his fault and his fault alone that lead him in this direction, blaming God and Esmeralda (Mea Culpas).

      At the very in, Frollo does seek God's Mercy for both Esmeralda and receives it on these two requests, the only time Frollo and the Chants are basically saying the same thing (Kyrie Eleison). However, the third recitation of Kyrie Eleison traditionally associated with the prayer is not said as Frollo restates his evil intentions... a critical component of the sacrament at issue here is that, in order to recieve forgiveness, one must make an effort to not sin again. If you are going to keep on doing the thing, you cannot be forgiven unless you seek to stop (whether or not you are successful, it's the effort that counts. Frollo isn't even bothering with the bare minimum.).
     
    Mook said:
    Man this is giving me some serious Hellfire vibes with how the music gets 10x more creepy and meaningful when you know what the ominous latin chorus is actually saying. 🤯
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    Though, those are some fascinating additions, never knew so many details went into that song. but it makes sense why draw attention to the people chanting and the background so much if there's nothing there?

    Also, a think piece on Whitley:
    So a subtle detail I like about Whitley's character is that while in earlier volumes he did show a nasty streak, it was never direction-less, he always focused it on Weiss, or his mother, or Winter to a lesser degree.

    Which given he's powerless before his father and thanks to the later context of him feeling abandoned by his siblings, makes the attitude make sense (Regardless of whether its fair, its a believable response.)

    This serves well as allowing him to both fill those previous roles, but also lays a fairly smooth ground work for a sharp shift in behaviour when presented with a way out with his father being gone, support & affirmation for good deeds done.

    Add in that, even then, he still took some time to call Klein and seemingly was finally pushed to act by Weiss's insistence on staying in Atlas & trying to reach out to May via her family, implying that motivated her own decision, serves as a good jumping off point.

    All of the above also ties in well with how Jac doesn't really treat his kids like wealthy and powerful would be successors, so much as employees. We don't know what he did to Winter, but given her bedroom was next to his office & her reactions to him, oof, it was bad. Weiss is basically treated like a living music box & Whitley like a butler/assistant; this would likely inadvertently stall the process of them becoming as elitist or disconnected as some other Atlas elites we see.
     
    Summer's Mission
    I wonder if the hound reveal gives credence to the idea that Summer left on that mission so Salem and her forces would not know she had a silver eyed daughter?
     
    Pugman said:
    Summer's Mission
    I wonder if the hound reveal gives credence to the idea that Summer left on that mission so Salem and her forces would not know she had a silver eyed daughter?
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    What if Summer's Mission was for Family? like check up on Mom and/or Dad
    and well you know what would have happened she ran into Salem
     
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