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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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  • Staff Post
    • Matrix Dragon said:
    Ironwood went to the Vale Council. They didn't approach him. The council says as much at the end of volume 2. This is after Ironwood wanted to send the fleet to Mountan Glenn, and Ozpin pointed out that it made more sense to send scouts.
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    You mean writing and sending reports on what's happening for the security of Vale to the governing Leadership of the kingdom. Ironwood didn't need to lie on said report to make it concerning to the Vale Council on Ozpin performance.

    So yes the Vale council went to him. Yes scouts where good but Oz sent students who where restricted from participating in the mission in the first place and the under trained scouts allowed the breach to happen in the first place. If that was written in the report it damming on his performance as headmaster and security head of the Vytal festival.
     
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    MonochromeXClown said:
    You mean writing and sending reports on what's happening for the security of Vale to the governing Leadership of the kingdom. Ironwood didn't need to lie on said report to make it concerning to the Vale Council on Ozpin performance.

    So yes the Vale council went to him. Yes scouts where good but Oz sent students who where restricted from participating in the mission in the first place and the scout allowed the breach to happen in the first place. If that was written in the report it damming on his performance as headmaster and security head of the Vytal festival.
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    They did not allow it to happen, and their performance mitigated most of the potential threat.
     
    Honestly it irks me when people act like its a zero sum game like Ozpin or Ironwood were right, its entirely possible for Ironwood to be an egotistical backstabber whose own plan was dumb and for Ozpin to have been irresponsible in sending four teens and one teacher into this situation rather than sending several high level Hunters.

    MonochromeXClown said:
    Yes he was asked by the Vale council who called the Atlas council to ask if Ironwood can handle security for the festival.

    What non canon details that Oz sent a first year team who are in their second semester to mission that was restricted to them at MT Glenn. That they failed to stop the Breach in the first place. That looks bad for Ozpin cause to the council it looks like Oz sent undertrained huntresses to a mission above their skill level who's failure allowed the Breach to happen.

    Is it Ironwood telling what happened to the Vale council? Maybe I remember that wrong. Rewatching the breach it appears Ironwood had nothing to do with his appointment of security other than accepting the position offered by the council. So in that instance Ironwood didn't go behind any bodies back.

    Edit :Sorry if it's a bit scrambled writing on mobile.
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    Ironwood went to them behind Opzin's back so he could take over, you claiming they went to him is the none canon thing. Also given his own plan was worse than Ozpin's well that speaks either poorly of how he framed things or of the councils intelligence.
     
    Zam said:
    Honestly it irks me when people act like its a zero sum game like Ozpin or Ironwood were right, its entirely possible for Ironwood to be an egotistical backstabber whose own plan was dumb and for Ozpin to have been irresponsible in sending four teens and one teacher into this situation rather than sending several high level Hunters.
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    Yes, but when it comes time to theorize how both Ironwood and RWBY were going about the Amity situation the wrong way (Ironwood by criminally neglecting Mantle to the point where the people he tried to protect the Kingdom against found it easy to sneak in and RWBY by not fully including Ironwood in on the trust circle when he had trusted them time and time again), suddenly it becomes a zero sum game of who's right and who's wrong.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    the under trained scouts allowed the breach to happen in the first place
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    The under trained scouts are the reason there were only some Grimm and one Paladin left by the time the train arrived, as opposed to lots of mechs, grimm and white fang soldiers.

    Psyga315 said:
    Yes, but when it comes time to theorize how both Ironwood and RWBY were going about the Amity situation the wrong way (Ironwood by criminally neglecting Mantle to the point where the people he tried to protect the Kingdom against found it easy to sneak in and RWBY by not fully including Ironwood in on the trust circle when he had trusted them time and time again), suddenly it becomes a zero sum game of who's right and who's wrong.
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    False equivalency. Because RWBY really had no reason to give the corrupt dictator as many chances as they did. The information they didn't share with him immediately was not immediately relevant. And Ironwood was, again, a corrupt dictator who destroyed his own kingdom, had abandoned Mistral already, and treated civilians as expendable.
     
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    Psyga315 said:
    Yes, but when it comes time to theorize how both Ironwood and RWBY were going about the Amity situation the wrong way (Ironwood by criminally neglecting Mantle to the point where the people he tried to protect the Kingdom against found it easy to sneak in and RWBY by not fully including Ironwood in on the trust circle when he had trusted them time and time again), suddenly it becomes a zero sum game of who's right and who's wrong.
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    And what action of Ironwood's was a show of actual, true trust in Ruby and Co.?
     
    Psyga315 said:
    Yes, but when it comes time to theorize how both Ironwood and RWBY were going about the Amity situation the wrong way (Ironwood by criminally neglecting Mantle to the point where the people he tried to protect the Kingdom against found it easy to sneak in and RWBY by not fully including Ironwood in on the trust circle when he had trusted them time and time again), suddenly it becomes a zero sum game of who's right and who's wrong.
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    Save for the fact Ironwood didn't trust them, hence why he can cut off their communications at a whim, didn't tell them he was robbing Mantle, didn't tell them where Fria was as that was Winter, so no he didn't trust them implicitly.
     
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    Pugman said:
    They did not allow it to happen, and their performance mitigated most of the potential threat.
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    Maybe I should have worded it better. I meant to the Vale council it looks like due to RWBY being undertrained for the scouting mission accidentally lit the fuse of the breach instead of disarming it before it exploded. So for the Breach to even happen was a failure to them. If they stopped it before it blew up it was a success.

    Zam said:
    Ironwood went to them behind Opzin's back so he could take over, you claiming they went to him is the none canon thing. Also given his own plan was worse than Ozpin's well that speaks either poorly of how he framed things or of the councils intelligence.
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    All Ironwood did was write and send reports to the Vale council. They literally says in the Breach they reached out to the Atlas council and they both agreed that Ironwood should be head of security. That kinda points that they asked him.

    Yes but to the council Ozpin sent undertrained huntress to a mission who's failure lead to the Breach.

    edit:If Ironwood was overreactive than to the council Ozpin looked like he wasn't reacting at all.
     
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    MonochromeXClown said:
    All Ironwood did was write and send reports to the Vale council. They literally says in the Breach they reached out to the Atlas council and they both agreed that Ironwood should be head of security. That kinda points that they asked him.

    Yes but to the council Ozpin sent undertrained huntress to a mission who's failure lead to the Breach.
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    You literally have no proof of that being how it happened, and given the Councils dialogue it would seem you are actively wrong. Oh my gosh, literally every character treats what Ironwood did as backstabbing Ozpin, he was not some passive player in this he was a thuggish idiot with a dumb plan that went behind Ozpin's back so he could take over because he thinks he's so much smarter than everyone else.
     
    Psyga315 said:
    He included them in on the plan when he could have left them completely in the dark like he did with everything else @Zam had pointed out and he gave them the Lamp for safekeeping rather than outright confiscate it.
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    BZZZZT.
    Given that Ruby and friends were already in on the secret war it wasn't a risk to let them in on the plan. Not to mention he knew he needed the extra help. As for the lamp as far as he knew there was nothing he could do with it. Trying to put it in the vault would mean moving Fria around for a time, and Ruby had just told him it was out of questions so he couldn't make use of it himself. At the time he could do nothing with it and they had gotten it this far so there was no real risk in letting them watch it some more.
     
    Pugman said:
    BZZZZT.
    Given that Ruby and friends were already in on the secret war it wasn't a risk to let them in on the plan. Not to mention he knew he needed the extra help. As for the lamp as far as he knew there was nothing he could do with it. Trying to put it in the vault would mean moving Fria around for a time, and Ruby had just told him it was out of questions so he couldn't make use of it himself. At the time he could do nothing with it and they had gotten it this far so there was no real risk in letting them watch it some more.
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    Plus it was nearly always kept in Atlas or under his watch anyway, it was still essentially in the palm of his hand.
     
    Zam said:
    Plus it was nearly always kept in Atlas or under his watch anyway, it was still essentially in the palm of his hand.
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    Until he was too busy backstabbing the people that had given him too many chances, meaning Neo could slip in and steal it. And our heroes weren't able to stop her because Ironwood had issued fraudulent warrants for their arrest, meaning the guards were focusing on them.

    It just keeps coming back around to Ironwood being a paranoid idiot.
     
    Zam said:
    You literally have no proof of that being how it happened, and given the Councils dialogue it would seem you are actively wrong. Oh my gosh, literally every character treats what Ironwood did as backstabbing Ozpin, he was not some passive player in this he was a thuggish idiot with a dumb plan that went behind Ozpin's back so he could take over because he thinks he's so much smarter than everyone else.
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    The Vale council said in their talk with Ozpin in the Breach episode that "Ironwood reports these last few weeks have left us somewhat concerned." That all the information we have of Ironwood communications with the Vale council. Unless their is another source of his interactions with the council.

    They even said that they reached to Atlas council and they both agreed that Ironwood should be head of security. It's said nothing of him asking for the position.

    I mean Ironwood instead of helping hide Ozpin mistakes basically tattled on him to the council.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    The Vale council said in their talk with Ozpin in the Breach episode that "Ironwood reports these last few weeks have left us somewhat concerned." That all the information we have of Ironwood communications with the Vale council. Unless their is another source of his interactions with the council.

    They even said that they reached to Atlas council and they both agreed that Ironwood should be head of security. It's said nothing of him asking for the position.

    I mean Ironwood instead of helping hide Ozpin mistakes basically tattled on him to the council.
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    So then yes, exactly as described he's been going behind Ozpin's back to the council and making him look bad, especially given anything prior to the Breach, such as the CCT infiltration can actually be laid at Ironwood's feet., and his own plan for the Breach was dumber than Ozpin's.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    So again telling the governing council on what's being done for the security of the nation who is hosting an international festival constitute as backstabbing.
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    On it's own? No. But then, that wasn't really why he was doing it. He was doing it because he'd decided Ozpin didn't trust him enough. He ranted to Glynda about it on screen. And so, even if the Council was right to have concerns about some of Ozpins decisions, they were misled into giving his responsibilities over to someone far less qualified.
     
    MonochromeXClown said:
    So again telling the governing council on what's being done for the security of the nation who is hosting an international festival constitute as backstabbing.
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    Ironwood speaks a lot about trust, but by going behind Ozpin's back and feeding the council this information he is breaking that trust and also showing he does not trust Ozpin to keep the people safe, despite being one of the newest people brought into the Ozluminati at the time.
    Oz showed trust in Ironwood by filling him in on the greater war at hand, Ironwood did not reciprocate that trust when it came to the Beacon arc.

    For a true show of trust, we can actually look at Qrow. When he was introduced in volume 3 he made it clear he was very cross with James for various reasons, including the backstabbing of Oz to the councilors. But later when everything goes to pot and Ironwood's robots are on the attack see Qrow take one look in Ironwood's direction, switch to Scythe mode for the first time in the series, and charge at The General. Ironwood exclaims he is not behind things, and even turns Due Process around into a more melee grip, only for Qrow to dash past him and slice a grim in half. Qrow turns to James and says "You idiot. I know you're not behind this." In other words despite their grievances and issues, he (like Glynda before him) both still had trust in Ironwood. They knew that despite his actions, Ironwood meant well. They trust him despite what he had done/not done, instead of how Ironwood did not trust Ozpin because he felt he was being to "passive" about things.
     
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    And lack of trust in anyone that doesn't agree with him completely sums up so many of Ironwoods failings. It's very similar to Watts.
     
    Pugman said:
    Oz showed trust in Ironwood by filling him in on the greater war at hand,
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    (waves hand) lets not forget Ozpin's whole thing is that he doesn't trust his allies, both her and Ironwood are shitty with trust.
    Matrix Dragon said:
    And lack of trust in anyone that doesn't agree with him completely sums up so many of Ironwoods failings. It's very similar to Watts.
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    That's a hilarious comparison I doubt either appreciate XD
     
    Zam said:
    (waves hand) lets not forget Ozpin's whole thing is that he doesn't trust his allies, both her and Ironwood are shitty with trust.
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    True enough, but I'd argue Ironwood has a much more dangerous version. While Oz doesn't always share information enough when he should, Ironwood takes any form of disagreement as a personal insult and a threat.
     
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