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RWBY Thread III: Time To Say Goodbye

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Stop: So gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
  • Staff Post
    • so gotta few things that need to be said real quick.
    We get a lot of reports from this thread. A lot of it is just a series of people yelling at each other over arguments that have been rehashed hundreds of times since the end of the recent Volume. And I get that the last Volume - and RWBY in general, really - has some controversial moments that people will want to discuss, argue about, debate, etc.

    That's fine. We're not going to stop people from doing that, because that's literally what the point of the thread is. However, there's just a point where it gets to be a bit too much, and arguments about whether or not Ironwood was morally justified in his actions in the recent Volume, or if RWBY and her team were in the right for withholding information from Ironwood out of distrust, or whatever flavor of argument of the day descend into insulting other posters, expressing a demeaning attitude towards other's opinions, and just being overall unpleasant. That tends to happen a lot in this thread. We want it to stop happening in this thread.

    So! As of now the thread is in a higher state of moderation. What that means is that any future infractions will result in a weeklong boot from the thread, and repeated offenders will likely be permanently removed. So please, everyone endeavor to actually respect the other's arguments, and even if you strongly disagree with them please stay civil and mindful when it comes to responding to others.

    In addition, users should refrain from talking about off-site users in the thread. Bear in mind that this does not mean that you cannot continue to post tumblr posts, for example, that add onto the discussion in the thread, with the caveat that it's related to RWBY of course. But any objections to offsite users in the thread should be handled via PM, or they'll be treated as thread violations and infracted as such.
     
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    • Matrix Dragon said:
    True enough, but I'd argue Ironwood has a much more dangerous version. While Oz doesn't always share information enough when he should, Ironwood takes any form of disagreement as a personal insult and a threat.
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    Not disagreeing, just noting Ozpin didn't really exhibit trust either, and I find his method pretty shitty as well as it basically involved drawing people into the war, keeping them ignorant and dictating their decisions for them, or leaving them thrashing around in the dark.
     
    Zam said:
    Not disagreeing, just noting Ozpin didn't really exhibit trust either, and I find his method pretty shitty as well as it basically involved drawing people into the war, keeping them ignorant and dictating their decisions for them, or leaving them thrashing around in the dark.
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    Or have them wait until it's too late to do anything about the situation while the villains end up being 20 steps ahead.
     
    Well, Oz can't really be as open as we want him to be for various reasons.

    1 - the man has been burned on trust an unknown number of times over his many lives. Salem, Leo, RWBY/Qrow and Ironwood are just the ones we've seen.

    2 - he personally does not want power and control. he theoretically could of back with the end of the great war. take over as King of Remnant, and from there explain to the world Salem, Relics, Maidens, everything, but that would not of really solved things. he had seen how power effects people and those under the powerful. he did not enjoy being a God King, and he turned down being the King of the world. I'd say those show a good measure of the man himself.

    3 - the more he reveals and the more active he tries to be the harder it could be to move. the more people who know about Salem, the more people that could jump ship and sell him out. on the flip side the less people know then that's less potential knives in his back but at the cost of few people able to actually help him. Positioning himself as head master helps balance this all out. This gives him a public face to use and keep an eye on the world, while also helping raise various people to hopefully be good people who would help others just because it was the right thing to do. Ozma was not a traveling hero out for profit, just to help those in need. Same with the Original Maidens. They were just traveling and doing good deeds. That is part of what helped found his ideology when it comes to Huntsmen. He does not want them fighting in his shadow war if he can help it, but at the very least in raising generations of Huntsmen he is trying to spread his ideology and trying to make sure there are people who can defend themselves and others from The Grimm. Remember when Ironwood asked "Do you honestly believe your children can win a war?" Ozpin's tired response after Ironwood walked away was "I pray they never have to."
     
    Pugman said:
    Well, Oz can't really be as open as we want him to be for various reasons.
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    1: I maintain that as we haven't actually seen that prior to him hiding stuff from his allies, and that his first instinct upon seeing Salem again was to lie based on vague stuff the GoL mentioned that this presumes too much.

    2: as I've noted in the past Ozpin not taking full power could well have been pragmatic as he doesn't live forever and so unless he revealed his reincarnations, he'd be leaving a world spanning empire to someone else meaning his next incarnation would be comparatively powerless.

    3: He also still hides info from those he recruits or those he enables into the fight without even telling about the war, so I don't really buy this argument. sorry.
     
    Moving away from Oz and Ironwood for a time
    Who could you guys imagine being the focus of an animatic with this song?
    We do have plenty of Mothers to pick from.
    Salem, Summer, Willow, Kali, Raven



    Lyrics
    What would a mother not do for her child
    What lengths would a mother not go
    There's a bond that exists between mother and child
    With no end to how strong it can grow
    It's a promise for life between mother and child
    It begins from the moment of birth
    And your shaken to your soul
    With an ache you've never known
    And you look into their eyes
    And find your looking in your own

    And there's a pain you can't imagine
    A special kind of torture you can feel
    A cut that bleeds from somewhere deep inside you
    A past regret you can't heal
    And no one guesses all the while your praying
    That screaming little stranger in your arms
    Might just grow up and save you after all
    Might just grow up and save you after all

    What would a mother not do for her child
    What heights would a mother not climb
    There's a bond the exists between mother and child
    And it only goes deeper with time
    It's a promise for life between mother and child
    And to break it there is no greater pain
    And your shaken to your soul
    With an ache that you can't erase
    Like the tears you never cried but still keep scrubbing off your face

    And there's a pain you can't imagine
    The little talk that keeps you wide awake
    That somehow turns to bold determination
    That you won't ever make the same mistake
    And so you've got to feed your little future
    Assuring that her talent, poise and charm
    Might just grow up and save you after all
    Might just grow up and save you after all

    Some dreams die upon the vine
    Some they never have a chance
    Sweeter than the sweetest wine
    That mine becomes
    The Queen of France

    And it's a relief you can't imagine
    It's filling every sinew, bone and nerve
    To that you can get out of this hell hole
    And finally live the life that you deserve
    And that you leave the past you knew would haunt you
    And all the regret you didn't show
    Might just grow up and save you after all
    Might just grow up and save you
    Might just grow up and save you after all

    What would a mother not do for her child
    What lengths would a mother not go
    There's a bond that exists between mother and child
    Ah , but then again,
    How would you know?

    For me I think someone could use Summer for it.

    Also, if Summer IS alive and has just been imprisoned in Evernight for the last decade and a half, how do you think CRWBY would go about giving us the reveal and what could be the Pros and Cons of this theorized direction?
     
    Some insightful posts on DVD/Blu-Ray commentaries and the occasional less than helpful ways certain segments of the "fan"base uses them.

    Reddit - Dive into anything

    www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
    Team_SKGA said:
    What I'm about to say is not meant to put Changyuraptor on the spot, discredit him or antagonize him. I know that between this and his other documents and videos, he only means well and does a really great job at archiving things at that. Rather, what I will say is meant to address a general problem regarding the volume 7 commentaries and other commentary tracks.

    I don't mind if people don't feel compelled to buy the blu-rays. I don't mind if people can't afford the blu-ray sets or a player (I mean, I don't really understand it since the sets are cheap, but I can accept it). What I do mind is judging the production and creative choices using specifically the commentary notes from Changyuraptor, u/sweetfable or anyone else instead of the commentary directly.

    It's a frustrating habit I'm seeing lately where excuses are made about not directly listening from the blu-rays themselves and context through vocal tone, phrasing and since the volume 6 commentary, who is speaking about what in favor of getting a "confirmation", even if the "confirmation" is paraphrased and transmuted. What's especially damning is when most critics use the notes, namely those who a) don't hesitate spilling out their thoughts on sharable videos and posts and b) default to deductive reasoning by drawing to a conclusion and then finding evidence to support that conclusion (i.e: "RWBY is bad storytelling, here's why", "the writers hate [insert character], here's why") as oppose to inductive reasoning where an observation is made first, then evidence is then discovered to support the observation and then a conclusion is made.

    What winds up happening is that anyone's words in the commentary is at risk of being misrepresented which has already happened unfortunately in the form of lengthy videos and tweets. One example is the note in SweetFable's post on how "Salem made things personal with Ironwood" and how the phrasing between Kerry, Miles & Paula was largely omitted. Another thing to understand is that while certain notes are listed as separate, in the original audio source, certain notes are talked about as one ongoing talking point. What was said about the office scene, about "setting up Ironwood's villany", about the main cast meeting their main antagonist, about Salem making things personal and about what Cinder did are all part of the same topic.

    Another example was the matter of ret-conning and how some things perceived as ret-cons are really not. Again, that originally came from SweetFable's notes, people took that at face value while being completely oblivious to the full context. You risk easily misinterpreting things if all you get through notes are "no, you're wrong! These are not ret-cons", as oppose to this.

    This next example is one where it is less of people's words being potentially misinterpreted through the notes (both Changyuraptor & SweetFable used the right word) and more of people assuming the wrong thing. There's a fair bit of backlash over "last-minute" changes just because Eddy or someone else said, "late edition to the outline" or "change in the outline" as if and... I'm not sure if people know the difference between an outline and a script or other terms thrown around. First of all, if you don't actually know the difference, don't act like you are an authority on identifying between good & bad writing! Second, an outline is just a beat-sheet. It lists all the key events in preparation for the script where the story beats are fleshed out in detail and both stage direction and dialogue are added.

    Outlining is super early in the production. The scripts started in late January and were likely finished by the end of July, so for all we know, having Robyn's introduction in chapter 5 be a late edition to the outline could've meant that happened by early March or something.

    Again, no antagonizing is meant to be directed towards anyone who provides notes. As Changyuraptor said, his notes are merely his personal interpretation as he does his best to convey them. It's just unbelievably tiring (both figuratively and literally) to keep playing "fact-checking whack-a-mole" with this damn fandom and how seeking full context from the original source, NOT to prove you are a "super fan" but to make sure the staff's words don't get misrepresented, are utterly devalued when they shouldn't. As far as I'm concerned, no counter-argument in the world is valid enough to justify that.
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    Eddy Rivas said:
    Yes, thank you for this comment. I've already seen a lot of misinformation going around based on somebody's _transcribed bullet points_ that aren't given full context, when people haven't even heard the audio themselves. And with no intended disrespect at all to the people who did the work and made this information available, some of the factoids they pulled out to me didn't always seem entirely accurate, or would fixate on one phrase that wasn't reflective of the overall thought.

    It's also important to remember that we could easily talk for many minutes about any given topic or point made on the commentary, but often you're being considerate of the other three or four people you're recording with, you say just a few sentences, then have to cut the moment short out of respect to them because each episode is so short and everybody has something to say. There's also times when someone might say something that isn't 100% reflective of how the entire team felt, but the commentary track isn't the place to hash that out lol.

    As for anything that was a "late addition," it certainly doesn't mean last minute in the slightest. It just means it wasn't part of our original pass, and once we started getting into the meat of things, it was a change that happened late in the outlining phase -- or maybe made to the outlines just before the scripts started getting written for that episode. The outline is a living breathing document, and things changed even late in the outline as we started moving through the season more. Almost _nothing_ can happen to an episode last minute -- there are too many people who touch every frame.

    And for anyone who feels upset or cheated about ideas we had that we ultimately scrapped -- usually the reason we scrapped it is because it was too divergent from the actual story -- and the important emotional beats -- that we prioritized telling.

    Overall, I'm incredibly happy that more people get exposed to these insights and I love when people find them useful and want to understand more about them -- but when people backlash over getting let into the process (or, more frustratingly, decide to use that limited peek into the process to show how they know more than us, the dumb dumb creatives) it certainly makes a few people more hesitant to offer those peeks.
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    For a little more clarity on the "late addition" timeline, the poster above was pretty close. My "fever dream" cited in the commentary happened in March, which lead to a lot of "late" changes to the _outlines_ of chapters 5 through 7, including some adjustments to tie Robyn/Mantle's storyline more directly to being a roadblock for Amity, and putting Tyrian and our other characters face to face in Chapter 6. The first draft for Chapter 4 was started later that month, and Chapter 5's drafts started in April.
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    Team_SKGA said:
    Wait, really? I was that close?!

    Holy cow, I just guessed! I-I mean, I assumed this all happened somewhere in the first half of the several-month time span for the script. But I just picked a month out of a hat. I.... wow! I'm speechless... and tired. I really need to get some sleep. lol

    But uh, one other quick thing I wanted to bring up about what you said regarding scrapping ideas in the outline. Yeah, creatively-speaking, needing to trim whatever feels like fat is definitely a thing and there can be other creative or even practical reasons like whatever runtime is allowed. It's something Miles (as well as Kerry talked about in the past and I get people want more time allowed so more stuff can happen in a given volume. But that's not a RWBY thing, that's a common problem to tackle within the creative entertainment industry.

    RWBY at its core is a web series, but depending on how one views it, a given volume can be treated like a movie. I don't know how much of this is the case for TV shows, but movies, especially animated ones, are subject to having ideas that end up getting scrapped ( in RWBY's case, Kerry has often talked about "pushing" many ideas for another time). You don't have to look at the following cases yourself if you're too busy, I just want to put them out there for any other onlookers. But some examples in other films include:

    • The Iron Giant had the action sequences in its 3rd act and the first scene in the first act downsized.
    • A musical piece in Disney's Mulan that Eddie Murphy sung was cut before Mulan went to army training camp site.
    • In Fullmetal Alchemist: The Conqueror of Shamballa, the 100-page script that would've spanned 3 hours had various things trimmed, including a character's role was cut significantly and Mustang & Winry ended up missing each other at Hughes' grave instead of reconciling (Mustang was the one who killed Winry's parents in the '03 version, not Scar)
    • How to Train Your Dragon had a few scenes deleted as well
    • The Dragon Ball Super Broly movie had to have its script & storyboards cut from spanning 3 hours to 100 minutes.
    It's so common to scrap ideas out of the script and over time, y'all seem (from what I can assess anyway) to have been better at deciding when to cut them in RWBY. I don't hear much about whole scenes cut in the storyboard phase in the past couple of volumes, just minor tweaks at most.

    At any rate, immense thanks for the response and insight Eddy Rivas!
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    Eddy Rivas said:
    Yeah, I think there's also a misunderstanding/miscommunication about what it means when we're talking about stuff we "cut." Generally it means something we considered and might have had in the outline for a short time but then rewrote it in the outline. Very rarely do we get entire scenes that make it all the way to script and then get cut from that point on. We know what our page count needs to be and how much outline space generally translates to page space. So we're not talking about stuff that got fully written out and then reshuffled later -- they're mostly ideas that died early on in the vine.
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    Pay particular attention to what Eddy said about things being cut or changed is something that happens extremely early in the production process, before the scripts are even written. Because I've seen so many people try to twist the commentaries into making the CRWBY a bunch of dumdums who still can't tell what they have room for or not in a volume and act as if they have to change things at the last minute in the middle of the animation process.


    Chungyraptor said:
    Thanks for stopping by Eddy, I'm really glad you and /u/Team_SKGA can put all these thoughts into words in a way that I only wish I could. I always try to be careful when doing stuff like this because I know how some people can act with the information, and hopefully I'm one, not completely misinterpreting everything, and two, making it clear enough that what is written here is just my own condensed interpretations of what's said, and no one should be taking in without a grain of salt.

    Sometimes I feel like I unintentionally contribute to the more 'unfortunate' discussions in the community, so I relate to what you say about backlash making people hesistant to show and talk about things. I can only imagine how much worse that feeling can be for you and everyone else who touches the show, so I greatly respect and appreciate you for how interactive you've been everywhere, not just here on the subreddit.

    Hopefully we're not too annoying, love ya Eddy :D
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    Eddy Rivas said:
    Never! You guys are great.

    It mostly just gets tiring when bad actors are always trying to use every bit of info they can to show how much smarter they are than us.
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    That last post is a real MOOD considering some of the posts I've seen on the SB thread. ☹




    Matrix Dragon said:
    You're right. Robins first appearance was a robbery. And Ironwood got away with it.

    And Blake and Yang were trying to help Ironwood. Ironwood was shanking his friend in the back.
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    Indeed.


    When you look at that scene it's pretty clear that Ruby and Qrow didn't know that Ironwood was getting his resources for the Amity Project by stealing them from Mantle.

    There is a reason Team RWBY is so sympathetic towards Robyn and her cause throughout the volume. Heck we even get a early showing of Clover's manipulative side when he acts as if he's talking to Robyn when he's actually talking over Ruby to make her shut up, shutting down any attempt to settle things through peaceful dialogue in the process.
     
    Never forget, Clovers first appearance has him arresting RWBY for fighting the Grimm. The airship theft was just a justification. They actually had no proof that the heroes stole it. If they had, Maria would have been arrested as well. So, they attacked and arrested people who had literally been talking to an authority figure in Mantle two seconds before, instead of dealing with Grimm threatening civilian lives. Poor judgement that would continue to his last appearance, when he would target Qrow, a person who would at most, use non-lethal tactics against him, instead of the serial killer who's been killing civilians.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Poor judgement that would continue to his last appearance, when he would target Qrow, a person who would at most, use non-lethal tactics against him, instead of the serial killer who's been killing civilians.
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    That was an interesting part of the crew commentary which a lot of people had already speculated on beforehand:
    Clover being a cool, nice dude who takes the opportunity to make luck based puns and cheesy one liners. The idea was that he acted like he was in an action movie because things just go right for him all the time, which lead to him being an inspiring, likeable guy. However this leads to someone who's over reliant on their semblance and who rides the line of overconfidence and arrogance, which ultimately gets the better of him.
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    Kiersi talks about how Clover just has no idea what he's up against with Tyrian, and that seeing Qrow as the larger threat is a big mistake. Kerry talks about how they also wanted to make it clear that Tyrian is manipulating the both of them. Eddy also talks about Clover riding the line of being a soldier, and seeing the other two as both being on the wrong side of the law.
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    Basically combine a diehard soldier approach to loyalty where commands are always to be obeyed with a personality that's used to treating fights like action movie set pieces where you're the heroic lead that always comes up on top (because you do) and you get what happened in Volume 7. Clover ignoring the greater threat of Tyrian because he's not used to needing to consider that he might actually lose.
     
    Mook said:
    That was an interesting part of the crew commentary which a lot of people had already speculated on beforehand:

    Basically combine a diehard soldier approach to loyalty where commands are always to be obeyed with a personality that's used to treating fights like action movie set pieces where you're the heroic lead that always comes up on top (because you do) and you get what happened in Volume 7. Clover ignoring the greater threat of Tyrian because he's not used to needing to consider that he might actually lose.
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    How could Ironwood possibly be wrong? Why, Clover's never experienced any negative consequences! :)
     
    ElMariachi said:
    Mmmh... that makes sense, the best way to deal with someone with eye powers is to take out said eyes, kind of how Salem stopped targeting Maria once she was blinded.
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    Like how Shigaraki takes Overhauls Quirk away by taking the body part the quirk comes from




    but ya the 2 main reasons people have wanted her to lose an eye since the start of the series is because;
    1 - Eye patches are cool
    2 - People want her to suffer for being a bubbly optimist instead of the quiet badass people thought she was going to be just because of the Red Trailer
     
    Welcome to any fandom, really.

    What goes on in RWBY isn't unique, but rather the frequency it occurs is what makes it unusual given its size. My running theory is that this is due to its foundation on the internet.
     
    Pugman said:
    Like how Shigaraki takes Overhauls Quirk away by taking the body part the quirk comes from




    but ya the 2 main reasons people have wanted her to lose an eye since the start of the series is because;
    1 - Eye patches are cool
    2 - People want her to suffer for being a bubbly optimist instead of the quiet badass people thought she was going to be just because of the Red Trailer
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    I mean, the whole "overcome a traumatizing defeat that left her with a debilitating injury" scenario is a classic, but they already did that with Yang and her lost arm. Although now that I think about it, with the super-advanced cybernetic implants technology available, if Ruby does lose an eye, she probably won't wear an eyepatch, but get one of those bionic eyes like Maria's, except that I can see her taking a model with a build-in zoom function and targeting assist so she won't even need her rifle's scope anymore... shit now I want her to lose that eye! :V
     
    I always thought the eye-patch thing came from a few future fan arts that had her have one eye to make an emphasis that she has aged from where she is now by looking battle tested.
     
    VolantRedX said:
    I always thought the eye-patch thing came from a few future fan arts that had her have one eye to make an emphasis that she has aged from where she is now by looking battle tested.
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    I do remember several fanarts of an older Ruby with an eyepatch that became popular among the fandom in the beginning of the series, although I feel that there aren't as many today as back during those times. Maybe because the trope of a mutilated protagonist was already used on Yang.
     
    Honestly, I think Maria is why they won't go that way for Ruby. She's seen that sort of injury and has been warned. As for showing battle scars and such, they did that just fine by having wear and tear on Crescent Rose.
     
    Matrix Dragon said:
    Honestly, I think Maria is why they won't go that way for Ruby. She's seen that sort of injury and has been warned. As for showing battle scars and such, they did that just fine by having wear and tear on Crescent Rose.
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    which has sense been mended and upgraded

    if Ruby DOES get a physical scar (on top of her mental scars) then let it be one that doesn't leave her with a missing part. One option that would drive shippers wild is if she gets a scar like Weiss' but on the opposite side of her face. XD I know it won't happen, but the hate, salt, and "they are shoving shipping/gay agenda down our throats" will skyrocket if it did.
     
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